are we in the middle of the 6th seal?

[nadab]

Nadab, do you listen to the Everly brothers? Your post reminded me of their famous song, "dream dream dream."

First off, you based this entire post on a falacy: John was in the spirit on SUNDAY, the day that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not transported in the future, for the vision of the throne room, was a vision of HIS PAST, back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

You have built a sand castle. God established his heavenly kingdom before the earth was created. The kingdom that is to be set up, is the PHYSICAL kingdom, and its time is close, but not here yet.
(Dan. 2:44)

You have totally missed the intent of the author: the first seal was broken about 33 AD. Where was Jesus then? Of course, just as John showed Him in the vision, He had just ascended, went straight to the Father and got the book, and began breaking the seals.

Daniel tells us of two "little horns." In Daniel 7, the little horn is to represent the beast of Rev. 13. But in Daniel 8, that little horn came from Alexander the Great's kingdom after his death; and refers to Antiochus Epiphanes.

Coop

The "Lord's day" that John said that he was "by inspiration...came to be in", was not Sunday. Rather, John was transported by God's spirit far into the future from the time of about 96 C.E., while he was on the isle of Patmos.(Rev 1:9, 10) By means of a series of visions, God unveiled to John events that would occur during this time period. Had the "Lord's day" been in the past, all John would have have had to do would look at past history.

However, God gave a picturesque view of how his people would be impacted during the "Lord's day" by Satan and his corrupt worldly institutions that he created and rules over, such as the "wild beast" of Revelation 13, the revealing of the "harlot", "seventh king", and "eighth king" at Revelation 17, the command by God for his "people" to "get out of " Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, and her subsequent destruction at Revelation 18, the complete removal of all human governments at Revelation 19, the abyssing of Satan and his demons, the doing away with Adamic death and the grave at Revelation 20, the bringing in of "new heavens and a new earth", God's Messianic kingdom and it's earthly subjects, the complete wiping out of the "former heavens and the former earth...and sea", the corrupt human governmental arrangements and their supporters, along with the restless masses of mankind, and the restoring of obedient mankind to perfection in which "death will be no more" and in which God is "making all things new" on the earth at Revelation 21 and 22.

The "first seal" was opened in 1914, with Jesus beginning his ride on the "white horse" and being given "a crown", meaning rulership of God's kingdom, and immediately following, the rider of the "fiery-colored horse", whereby it was ' granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' as a result of the "second seal" being opened.(Rev 6:4) Any credible historian can readily identify with the events that started World War I and the history that quickly followed.

With the opening of the "third seal", a rider on a "black horse" came forth, this being famine that became common in many parts of the world, as a direct result of World War I.(Rev 6:5, 6) With the opening of the "fourth seal", a rider on a "pale horse" called "Death" came forth, with "Hades...closely following him." This rider was given authority to "over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword...and with deadly plague."(Rev 6:8)

What "deadly plague" came forward to snuff out lives on a global scale not long after Jesus began his ride on the "white horse" ? Following the end of WWI, the Spanish influenza broke out, lasting from March 1918 to June 1920. Following in the wake of the ravages of World War I, the Spanish flu reaped perhaps over 50 million human lives in just a few months of 1918-19. The only territory on earth to escape this scourge was the small island of St. Helena. In places where the population was decimated, funeral pyres were lit to burn the piles of bodies.

Wikipedia made this note: "The Spanish flu lasted from March 1918 to June 1920, spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. While older estimates put the number of killed at 40–50 million people, current estimates are that 50 million to 100 million people worldwide died, higher than the number killed in World War I. This extraordinary toll resulted from the extremely high infection rate of up to 50% and the extreme severity of the symptoms, suspected to be caused by cytokine storms."

Notes John M. Barry, in his book The Great Influenza (2004): “Influenza killed more people in a year than the Black Death of the Middle Ages killed in a century; it killed more people in twenty-four weeks than AIDS has killed in twenty-four years.†Thus, 1918-1920 Spanish flu pandemic has been the worse to ever to hit the face of the earth in history. Thus, with Jesus being given "a crown" in 1914, momentous events have followed that we are experiencing today.

 

[lecoop]

Nadab, do you listen to the Everly brothers? Your post reminded me of their famous song, "dream dream dream."

First off, you based this entire post on a falacy: John was in the spirit on SUNDAY, the day that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not transported in the future, for the vision of the throne room, was a vision of HIS PAST, back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

You have built a sand castle. God established his heavenly kingdom before the earth was created. The kingdom that is to be set up, is the PHYSICAL kingdom, and its time is close, but not here yet.
(Dan. 2:44)

You have totally missed the intent of the author: the first seal was broken about 33 AD. Where was Jesus then? Of course, just as John showed Him in the vision, He had just ascended, went straight to the Father and got the book, and began breaking the seals.

Daniel tells us of two "little horns." In Daniel 7, the little horn is to represent the beast of Rev. 13. But in Daniel 8, that little horn came from Alexander the Great's kingdom after his death; and refers to Antiochus Epiphanes.

Coop

The "Lord's day" that John said that he was "by inspiration...came to be in", was not Sunday. Rather, John was transported by God's spirit far into the future from the time of about 96 C.E., while he was on the isle of Patmos.(Rev 1:9, 10) By means of a series of visions, God unveiled to John events that would occur during this time period. Had the "Lord's day" been in the past, all John would have have had to do would look at past history.

However, God gave a picturesque view of how his people would be impacted during the "Lord's day" by Satan and his corrupt worldly institutions that he created and rules over, such as the "wild beast" of Revelation 13, the revealing of the "harlot", "seventh king", and "eighth king" at Revelation 17, the command by God for his "people" to "get out of " Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, and her subsequent destruction at Revelation 18, the complete removal of all human governments at Revelation 19, the abyssing of Satan and his demons, the doing away with Adamic death and the grave at Revelation 20, the bringing in of "new heavens and a new earth", God's Messianic kingdom and it's earthly subjects, the complete wiping out of the "former heavens and the former earth...and sea", the corrupt human governmental arrangements and their supporters, along with the restless masses of mankind, and the restoring of obedient mankind to perfection in which "death will be no more" and in which God is "making all things new" on the earth at Revelation 21 and 22.

The "first seal" was opened in 1914, with Jesus beginning his ride on the "white horse" and being given "a crown", meaning rulership of God's kingdom, and immediately following, the rider of the "fiery-colored horse", whereby it was ' granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' as a result of the "second seal" being opened.(Rev 6:4) Any credible historian can readily identify with the events that started World War I and the history that quickly followed.

With the opening of the "third seal", a rider on a "black horse" came forth, this being famine that became common in many parts of the world, as a direct result of World War I.(Rev 6:5, 6) With the opening of the "forth seal", a rider on a "pale horse" called "Death" came forth, with "Hades...closely following him." This rider was given authority to "over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword...and with deadly plague."(Rev 6:8)

What "deadly plague" came forward to snuff out lives on a global scale not long after Jesus began his ride on the "white horse" ? Following the end of WWI, the Spanish influenza broke out, lasting from March 1918 to June 1920. Following in the wake of the ravages of World War I, the Spanish flu reaped perhaps over 50 million human lives in just a few months of 1918-19. The only territory on earth to escape this scourge was the small island of St. Helena. In places where the population was decimated, funeral pyres were lit to burn the piles of bodies.

Wikipedia made this note: "The Spanish flu lasted from March 1918 to June 1920, spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. While older estimates put the number of killed at 40–50 million people, current estimates are that 50 million to 100 million people worldwide died, higher than the number killed in World War I. This extraordinary toll resulted from the extremely high infection rate of up to 50% and the extreme severity of the symptoms, suspected to be caused by cytokine storms."

Notes John M. Barry, in his book The Great Influenza (2004): “Influenza killed more people in a year than the Black Death of the Middle Ages killed in a century; it killed more people in twenty-four weeks than AIDS has killed in twenty-four years.†Thus, 1918-1920 Spanish flu pandemic has been the worse to ever to hit the face of the earth in history. Thus, with Jesus being given "a crown" in 1914, momentous events have followed that we are experiencing today.

It is mostly a pipe dream. Jesus broke the first seal, as soon as he ascended into heaven. THAT is written. Go back and read it.

Yes, certainly we can see over the history of the church, that the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider have been busy: but THEY ARE STILL BUSY. Wars seem to be constant in Africa. Epidemics seem to be constant there. Famines seem to be the norm there.

Coop

 

[nadab]

Coming: no need of a dictionary: just some common horse sense and the ability to read:

1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Let's be very clear about this: for those that remain in heaven, Jesus is GOING, but to us on the earth, Jesus is COMING. And once He has COME, we meet Him in the air. So why must you make this simple event, so simple a child could understand, into something difficult? Jesus is COMING to get His church. When He COMES, His presence will be here, for we will be WITH Him.

Then again, when He comes on the white horse (a DIFFERENT coming) He again leaves heaven and descends to earth. But this time, He is not leaving. There is nothing confusing about this.

Coop

Just as the colors blue and green are different in English, so are the words "presence" and coming". If a person was hired to paint a house, and the owner specified that it be painted blue on the contract, yet it was painted green by the painter, would this have been acceptable to the owner ? Likewise, the Greek word pa·rou·si´as is inaccurately rendered as "coming" instead of "presence".

In fact, because of improperly rendering it as "coming" instead of accurately as "presence", this has thus set the tone for the belief in Jesus "second coming" rather than understanding what is meant by Jesus words that just "as the days of Noah - so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man."(Mat 24:37,Young's Bible)

Many then failed to grasp the real meaning of Jesus pa·rou·si´as or his invisible "presence" in kingdom power. Because of the churches not "doing their homework" in this regard, these have advocated instead Jesus "coming", which is from the the Greek word er·kho´me·non and not pa·rou·si´as. Jesus did not use the Greek word er·kho´me·non at Matthew 24:27, 37,and 39, as many Bibles have rendered it. This is no different than having a map that is mislabeled and then using it as a city guide.

Jesus invisible "presence" is not momentary, as is meant by the word "coming". Rather, it means an extended period of time, and that is why Jesus paralleled it to the "days of Noah". The "days of Noah" were not just a brief moment in time, but was about 120 years long.(Gen 6:3) Over this period of time, Noah built the ark, preached to all he met, alerting these to the fact that God was going to destroy their "world" by water.(2 Pet 2:5; 3:6)

Jesus said that specific features would identify the "sign" of his invisible "presence", the result of his receiving "a crown" as king of God's kingdom in heaven.(Rev 6:2) Some of the features that he pointed out were "nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."(Matt 24:7, International Standard Version)

These same features are seen at Revelation 6:3,4, as the rider of the "fiery-colored horse", whereby it was ' granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.'

Jesus further said that the feature of global war, that is beginning with World War I in 1914, along with "food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another", would just be the "beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:8) In addition, he stated that the godly quality of love would "cool off " as the "end" approached because "of the increasing of lawlessness".(Matt 24:12)

And during his invisible "presence" in kingdom power, he would oversee a worldwide preaching work, saying that "this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive."(Matt 24:14, Young's Bible)

Hence, Jesus invisible "presence" is not momentary, as many believe of his "second coming", but rather is an extended period of time, like the "days of Noah", in which specific features that he identified would be happening, leading up to the "end" of this "system of things."(Matt 24:14)

His invisible "presence" leads up to his "coming", for Jesus said at Matthew 24:29, 30: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (Greek er·kho´me·non) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."(Webster's Bible)

 

[lecoop]

Coming: no need of a dictionary: just some common horse sense and the ability to read:

1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Let's be very clear about this: for those that remain in heaven, Jesus is GOING, but to us on the earth, Jesus is COMING. And once He has COME, we meet Him in the air. So why must you make this simple event, so simple a child could understand, into something difficult? Jesus is COMING to get His church. When He COMES, His presence will be here, for we will be WITH Him.

Then again, when He comes on the white horse (a DIFFERENT coming) He again leaves heaven and descends to earth. But this time, He is not leaving. There is nothing confusing about this.

Coop

Just as the colors blue and green are different in English, so are the words "presence" and coming". If a person was hired to paint a house, and the owner specified that it be painted blue on the contract, yet it was painted green by the painter, would this have been acceptable to the owner ? Likewise, the Greek word pa·rou·si´as is inaccurately rendered as "coming" instead of "presence".

In fact, because of improperly rendering it as "coming" instead of accurately as "presence", this has thus set the tone for the belief in Jesus "second coming" rather than understanding what is meant by Jesus words that just "as the days of Noah - so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man."(Mat 24:37,Young's Bible)

Many then failed to grasp the real meaning of Jesus pa·rou·si´as or his invisible "presence" in kingdom power. Because of the churches not "doing their homework" in this regard, these have advocated instead Jesus "coming", which is from the the Greek word er·kho´me·non and not pa·rou·si´as. Jesus did not use the Greek word er·kho´me·non at Matthew 24:27, 37,and 39, as many Bibles have rendered it. This is no different than having a map that is mislabeled and then using it as a city guide.

Jesus invisible "presence" is not momentary, as is meant by the word "coming". Rather, it means an extended period of time, and that is why Jesus paralleled it to the "days of Noah". The "days of Noah" were not just a brief moment in time, but was about 120 years long.(Gen 6:3) Over this period of time, Noah built the ark, preached to all he met, alerting these to the fact that God was going to destroy their "world" by water.(2 Pet 2:5; 3:6)

Jesus said that specific features would identify the "sign" of his invisible "presence", the result of his receiving "a crown" as king of God's kingdom in heaven.(Rev 6:2) Some of the features that he pointed out were "nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."(Matt 24:7, International Standard Version)

These same features are seen at Revelation 6:3,4, as the rider of the "fiery-colored horse", whereby it was ' granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.'

Jesus further said that the feature of global war, that is beginning with World War I in 1914, along with "food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another", would just be the "beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:8) In addition, he stated that the godly quality of love would "cool off " as the "end" approached because "of the increasing of lawlessness".(Matt 24:12)

And during his invisible "presence" in kingdom power, he would oversee a worldwide preaching work, saying that "this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive."(Matt 24:14, Young's Bible)

Hence, Jesus invisible "presence" is not momentary, as many believe of his "second coming", but rather is an extended period of time, like the "days of Noah", in which specific features that he identified would be happening, leading up to the "end" of this "system of things."(Matt 24:14)

His invisible "presence" leads up to his "coming", for Jesus said at Matthew 24:29, 30: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (Greek er·kho´me·non) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."(Webster's Bible)

How interesting! Yet, we see this same word, "parousia," translated as "coming" in all these verses:

1Cr 16:17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

2Cr 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;

Phl 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

We might note that iin the KJV, the numbers look like this: "AV — coming 22, presence 2"

So MOST of the time, this word is used, it is speaking of the coming of Jesus.

But, Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus did come too, and it was not their "presense."
Also Titus did come, and Paul did come, and again, it was NOT just a presense.

From Thayers Greek Lexicon:

1) presence

2) the coming, arrival, advent
a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

So, as usual, your ideas are OFF.
"parousia" can and does mean a physical COMING.

Coop

 

[NJBeliever]

[
It is mostly a pipe dream. Jesus broke the first seal, as soon as he ascended into heaven. THAT is written. Go back and read it.

Yes, certainly we can see over the history of the church, that the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider have been busy: but THEY ARE STILL BUSY. Wars seem to be constant in Africa. Epidemics seem to be constant there. Famines seem to be the norm there.

Coop
Coop

Precisely. And that is just from a straight forward reading of the text.

 

[nadab]

How interesting! Yet, we see this same word, "parousia," translated as "coming" in all these verses:

1Cr 16:17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

2Cr 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;

Phl 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

We might note that iin the KJV, the numbers look like this: "AV — coming 22, presence 2"

So MOST of the time, this word is used, it is speaking of the coming of Jesus.

But, Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus did come too, and it was not their "presense."
Also Titus did come, and Paul did come, and again, it was NOT just a presense.

From Thayers Greek Lexicon:

1) presence

2) the coming, arrival, advent
a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

So, as usual, your ideas are OFF.
"parousia" can and does mean a physical COMING.

Coop

At 1 Corinthians 16:17, 2 Corinthians 7:6, 7 and Philippians 1:26, the interlinears The Emphatic Diaglott, The New Testament in the Original Greek, a Greek master text by Westcott and Hort, and the online interlinear Scripture4all have all rendered the Greek word pa·rou·si´as as "presence" and not as "coming", except in one case. The online interlinear Scripture4all provides the meaning of pa·rou·si´as as "beside-being" or literally as being beside someone and not awating their "coming".

Some Bible translations have used the expression concerning Steph´a·nas and For·tu·na´tus and A·cha´i·cus as ' having arrived ' and not as "coming".(Montgomery New Testament, Weymouth's New Testament) Young's Bible reads "presence" instead of "coming".

A pa·rou·si´a, or presence, can, of course, be visible, and in six occurrences of the word the reference is to the visible, human presence of men, such as Stephanas, Fortunatus, Achaicus, Titus, and Paul. (1Cor 16:17; 2Cor 7:6, 7; 10:10; Php 1:26; 2:12) That a pa·rou·si´a or "presence" can also be invisible is seen by Paul’s use of the related verb form (pa´rei·mi) when speaking of being “present in spirit†though absent in body. (1Cor 5:3)

And as mentioned in my response earlier, Jewish historian Josephus, writing in Greek, referred to God’s pa·rou·si´a at Mount Sinai, his invisible presence being evidenced by the thunders and lightning.—Jewish Antiquities, III, 80 (v, 2).

Evidence weighing against Jesus’ presence as being a visible one (in the sense of Jesus’ appearing in a bodily form that could be seen by human eyes) is found in Jesus’ own statement that by his death he would sacrifice his flesh in behalf of the life of the world (John 6:51) and in the apostle Paul’s declaration that the resurrected Jesus “dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see.†(1Tim 6:14-16)

Jesus therefore could tell his disciples that “a little longer and the world will behold me no more.†True, his disciples did behold him, not only because he would appeared to them after his resurrection but also because in due time they would be resurrected to join him in the heavens and ‘behold the glory that his Father had given him.’ (John 14:19; 17:24)

But the "world" would not behold him because after his resurrection to life as a spirit creature (1Pet 3:18), Jesus restricted his appearances to his disciples. His ascension to heaven was also seen only by them, not by the world, and the angels present assured the disciples that Jesus’ return would be in “the same manner†(Greek, tro´pos, not mor·phe´, “formâ€), hence without public display, discerned only by his faithful followers.(Acts 1:1-11)

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says the first definition of pa·rou·si´as is "presence" and when one gives serious consideration to the context of the scripture, the Greek word pa·rou·si´as is always seen as "presence". For example, it was foretold that, in “the last days,†ridiculers would scoff, saying: ' Where is this promised presence (Greek pa·rou·si´as, not "coming") of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning. ' (2Pet 3:2-4)

Thus, many would ridicule the evidence that Jesus "promise presence" was upon us, failing to recognize this "promised presence" and that a considerable time period would be covered by Jesus "presence" and not just his arrival, "coming" or "advent", leading up to his "coming", whereby cataclysmic events will then occur on the earth.(Matt 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible also reads as the first definition: "from the present participle of pareimi, meaning "to be near, at hand." Strong's then adds "i. e. advent" or arrival, giving his personal view on this word. This, however, is stretching the meaning beyond what Jesus and the apostles meant.

The pa·rou·si´a of Matthew 24:3 and related texts clearly relates to a special presence, one involving and affecting all earth’s inhabitants and inseparably connected with Jesus’ expression of full authority as King anointed by God.

The King James Bible is by no means accurate, for it has translated many Hebrew and Greek words inaccurately and inconsistently. For example, the Greek word makellon is rendered as "shambles" in the King James Bible at 1 Corinthinans 10:25, but means literally "butcher-place"(online interlinear Scripture4all ) or "meat market", not a place of ruin. Another example, at Psalms 99:3, the King James Bible reads of God's name: "Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy." Is God's name "terrible" ? Not at all.

Also at Deuteronomy 7:21, the King James Bible reads: "Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." The Hebrew word used is wehan·noh·ra’ and accurately means "fear-inspiring" instead of "terrible". Thus, Young's Bible reads "They praise Thy name, 'Great, and fearful (literally "fear-inspiring"), holy [it] is." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible reads that the primary root means "to fear..to revere."(word # 3372 in Hebrew)

The Hebrew word sheol is inconsistently rendered in the King James Bible as "hell" 31 times, as “grave†31 times and “pit" 3 times. Being that the King James Bible has rendered the Greek word pa·rou·si´a as "coming" 22 times and only twice as "presence" shows a great lack of proper understanding of pa·rou·si´a.

The interlinear reading of The Emphatic Diaglott, the Greek master text The New Testament in the Original Greek, and the online interlinear Scripture4all, have almost consistently rendered pa·rou·si´a as "presence", except The Emphatic Diaglott rendered pa·rou·si´a as "coming" at 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and thus not being across the board consistent and even changing the interlinear reading from "presence" to "coming" at 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 9 in the right column, though in verse 8 renders pa·rou·si´a as "presence".

Also at James 5:7, 8, The Emphatic Diaglott has in the interlinear reading "presence", but the reading in the right column as "coming." Hence, because of the teaching by the churches of Jesus "second coming", caused Benjamin Wilson to give a twisted reading that would appeal to "Christians" and the churches who have held so strongly to Jesus "second coming" rather than understanding what is meant by his "presence."

Where is accuracy to be found ? Many Bible translators have been deeply influenced by theological or "orthodox" teachings rather than what the original writers had written down by God's spirit, giving either a slight twist or completely changing the meaning by inserting another word in it's place. This is called tampering, of which God himself strongly condemns.(Deut 4:2; Rev 22:18)

 

[lecoop]

Nadab,

it is written:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Matt 4
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Nadab, when do you see the reign of Satan as the "god of this world" ending?

Coop

 

[nadab]

Nadab,

it is written:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Matt 4
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Nadab, when do you see the reign of Satan as the "god of this world" ending?

Coop

Satan began his "reign" when Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden of Eden as a result of the first lie some six thousand years ago, and will end permanently at the end of "the thousand year" reign of Christ Jesus.

At this time, after having been in the "abyss" or prison-like state for one thousand years (Rev 20:1-3), during "the thousand year" reign of Jesus, he will then be let loose following the ending of Jesus "thousand year " reign and "will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth."(Rev 20:7, 8) After he has had sufficient time to mislead many, then he, along with all those who had chose his rulership, will be destroyed, being "hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur", the "second death", never to exist again.(Rev 20:9, 10)

 

[lecoop]

Nadab,

it is written:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Matt 4
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Nadab, when do you see the reign of Satan as the "god of this world" ending?

Coop

Satan began his "reign" when Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden of Eden as a result of the first lie some six thousand years ago, and will end permanently at the end of "the thousand year" reign of Christ Jesus.

At this time, after having been in the "abyss" or prison-like state for one thousand years (Rev 20:1-3), during "the thousand year" reign of Jesus, he will then be let loose following the ending of Jesus "thousand year " reign and "will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth."(Rev 20:7, 8) After he has had sufficient time to mislead many, then he, along with all those who had chose his rulership, will be destroyed, being "hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur", the "second death", never to exist again.(Rev 20:9, 10)

I disagree. His reign as "God of this world," ends before the 1000 years begins. He is indeed let out of of the bottomless pit after the 1000 years, but only as a deceiver, not as the god of that present world.

Therefore, somewhere between Rev. 4 and Rev. 19, his time as god of this world ends. I did not really ask a good question; so I will try to do better: where in the book of Revelation do you see his reign ending, between chapters 4 and 19?

Coop

 

[nadab]

Nadab,

it is written:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Matt 4
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Nadab, when do you see the reign of Satan as the "god of this world" ending?

Coop

Satan began his "reign" when Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden of Eden as a result of the first lie some six thousand years ago, and will end permanently at the end of "the thousand year" reign of Christ Jesus.

At this time, after having been in the "abyss" or prison-like state for one thousand years (Rev 20:1-3), during "the thousand year" reign of Jesus, he will then be let loose following the ending of Jesus "thousand year " reign and "will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth."(Rev 20:7, 8) After he has had sufficient time to mislead many, then he, along with all those who had chose his rulership, will be destroyed, being "hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur", the "second death", never to exist again.(Rev 20:9, 10)

I disagree. His reign as "God of this world," ends before the 1000 years begins. He is indeed let out of of the bottomless pit after the 1000 years, but only as a deceiver, not as the god of that present world.

Therefore, somewhere between Rev. 4 and Rev. 19, his time as god of this world ends. I did not really ask a good question; so I will try to do better: where in the book of Revelation do you see his reign ending, between chapters 4 and 19?

Coop

You are technically right, in that Satan the Devil's rulership over the "this world" ends at the time he is thrown into the "abyss" or prison-like state of inactivity at the conclusion of Armageddon, for a period of 1000 years (Rev 20:1-3), following the destruction of all human governments, called "the wild beast".(Rev 19:19-21) During this time, he cannot control or manipulate mankind through human governmental agencies like he has for millenniums, starting with Nimrod, who was the founder and king of the first empire to come into existence after the Noachian Flood, in opposition to God.(Gen 10:8-12)

However, "as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison."(Rev 20:7) Thus, after an interim of 1000 years of inactivity in “prison†of the "abyss, he will then be “let loose†to again seek and succeed to congregate people into "nations" on the earth against God's kingship.

These will again display the same wicked disposition as the nations show now, being called "God and Magogâ€, separating themselves from God’s loyal ones.(Rev 20:8) These will ‘ advance over the breadth of the earth’ to “encircle the camp of the holy onesâ€(Rev 20:9), those of restored mankind to human perfection who are maintaining their integrity to God and his Messianic king.

Those called “Gog and Magogâ€, will “think up an injurious schemeâ€, as did Gog of Magog in Ezekiel’s prophesy, Satan, with a goal of destroying theocratic government.(Eze 38:3, 10-12) Hence, they are called “Gog and Magogâ€, patterning themselves after Satan’s hateful disposition against God’s rulership.

 

[lecoop]

Satan began his "reign" when Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden of Eden as a result of the first lie some six thousand years ago, and will end permanently at the end of "the thousand year" reign of Christ Jesus.

At this time, after having been in the "abyss" or prison-like state for one thousand years (Rev 20:1-3), during "the thousand year" reign of Jesus, he will then be let loose following the ending of Jesus "thousand year " reign and "will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth."(Rev 20:7, 8) After he has had sufficient time to mislead many, then he, along with all those who had chose his rulership, will be destroyed, being "hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur", the "second death", never to exist again.(Rev 20:9, 10)

I disagree. His reign as "God of this world," ends before the 1000 years begins. He is indeed let out of of the bottomless pit after the 1000 years, but only as a deceiver, not as the god of that present world.

Therefore, somewhere between Rev. 4 and Rev. 19, his time as god of this world ends. I did not really ask a good question; so I will try to do better: where in the book of Revelation do you see his reign ending, between chapters 4 and 19?

Coop

You are technically right, in that Satan the Devil's rulership over the "this world" ends at the time he is thrown into the "abyss" or prison-like state of inactivity at the conclusion of Armageddon, for a period of 1000 years (Rev 20:1-3), following the destruction of all human governments, called "the wild beast".(Rev 19:19-21) During this time, he cannot control or manipulate mankind through human governmental agencies like he has for millenniums, starting with Nimrod, who was the founder and king of the first empire to come into existence after the Noachian Flood, in opposition to God.(Gen 10:8-12)

However, "as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison."(Rev 20:7) Thus, after an interim of 1000 years of inactivity in “prison†of the "abyss, he will then be “let loose†to again seek and succeed to congregate people into "nations" on the earth against God's kingship.

These will again display the same wicked disposition as the nations show now, being called "God and Magogâ€, separating themselves from God’s loyal ones.(Rev 20:8) These will ‘ advance over the breadth of the earth’ to “encircle the camp of the holy onesâ€(Rev 20:9), those of restored mankind to human perfection who are maintaining their integrity to God and his Messianic king.

Those called “Gog and Magogâ€, will “think up an injurious schemeâ€, as did Gog of Magog in Ezekiel’s prophesy, Satan, with a goal of destroying theocratic government.(Eze 38:3, 10-12) Hence, they are called “Gog and Magogâ€, patterning themselves after Satan’s hateful disposition against God’s rulership.

Nadab, what you have said seems obvious, but I must disagree. I see his reign as "god of this world" ending at the 7th trumpet. I believe the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, AND the end of one Millenium, and the begining of the next, and the end of Satan's reign as god of this world. I think Adam's lease will have run out at this time, meaning Satan's lease has run out too. He is immediately after this, kicked out of the heavens, and down to earth. God will give him the 42 months of authority, but it will not be as "god of this world," it will only be as a deceiver. it is written that at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world, have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ!! Hallelujah!! That is when the lease runs out!

Coop

 

[veteran]

Veteran, we are talking specifically of the 6th seal, not the entire 70th week. The sixth seal events are the SIGNs of the coming day of the Lord - not the day of the Lord itself. I am agreed that it will come suddenly, as a thief in the night. (1 thes 5) Paul speaks of two groups there, "Us, ye, and you," versus "they and them." They and them, get caught by sudden destruction, and the "us, ye and you" escape that sudden destruction - for we have "no appointment with wrath." Paul is telling us that immediately following these events that come suddenly and bring sudden destruction will be the time of God's wrath. Of course, this is exactly what John shows us in Revelation. VEry shortly after he saw the 6th seal events, he saw the raptured church in heaven, and then he could show the breaking of the 7th seal, which officially opens the day of the Lord, AND God's wrath. As Paul said, we have no appointment, and the sudden destruction does not get US, because we are GONE.

You are trying to make TOO MUCH happen at the 6th seal. It is ONLY the signs of the coming Day of the Lord. Please don't try to rearrange where God and John has put it; just before the day of the Lord and the 70th week. The destruction of the world system comes at the END of the 70th week, at the 7th vial. That will be about 7 years AFTER this 6th seal event.

Coop

If you'll quite keying on numerology for understanding Revelation you might discover the events of the sixth seal also align with sixth and seventh trumpet events and sixth and seventh vial events. What you're trying to teach is a false Pre-Trib rapture, what was once called the "secret rapture" by John Darby in 1830's Great Britain.

At the seventh trumpet, seventh vial is when Christ's coming is to gather His saints, for that's when He pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked. And per our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul, and OT prophets like Isaiah, it will happen very quickly.

II Th 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(KJV)

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)


Zeph 1:14-18
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(KJV)

Zeph 2:1-3
1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
(KJV)

Ps 2:11-12
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(KJV)

Isa 33:10-17
10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
(KJV)

Mal 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

 

[lecoop]

Veteran, we are talking specifically of the 6th seal, not the entire 70th week. The sixth seal events are the SIGNs of the coming day of the Lord - not the day of the Lord itself. I am agreed that it will come suddenly, as a thief in the night. (1 thes 5) Paul speaks of two groups there, "Us, ye, and you," versus "they and them." They and them, get caught by sudden destruction, and the "us, ye and you" escape that sudden destruction - for we have "no appointment with wrath." Paul is telling us that immediately following these events that come suddenly and bring sudden destruction will be the time of God's wrath. Of course, this is exactly what John shows us in Revelation. VEry shortly after he saw the 6th seal events, he saw the raptured church in heaven, and then he could show the breaking of the 7th seal, which officially opens the day of the Lord, AND God's wrath. As Paul said, we have no appointment, and the sudden destruction does not get US, because we are GONE.

You are trying to make TOO MUCH happen at the 6th seal. It is ONLY the signs of the coming Day of the Lord. Please don't try to rearrange where God and John has put it; just before the day of the Lord and the 70th week. The destruction of the world system comes at the END of the 70th week, at the 7th vial. That will be about 7 years AFTER this 6th seal event.

Coop

If you'll quite keying on numerology for understanding Revelation you might discover the events of the sixth seal also align with sixth and seventh trumpet events and sixth and seventh vial events. What you're trying to teach is a false Pre-Trib rapture, what was once called the "secret rapture" by John Darby in 1830's Great Britain.

At the seventh trumpet, seventh vial is when Christ's coming is to gather His saints, for that's when He pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked. And per our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul, and OT prophets like Isaiah, it will happen very quickly.

Please put in list form, the verses at the 7th trumpet, that shows Jesus coming. If you cannot, then please put in list form, scriptures that cause you to believe what is NOT written. (and explain how you believe these scriptures.)

Veteran, I already know you have an uncontrollable urge to rearrange. And this comes from your belief that John did not write in a chronological manner. And this belief comes from preconceived theories and glasses. If you would take off all preconceptions, and read it as if you had never heard it before, with an open mind, you would find that John was very chronological. Is it numerology? Sorry, but John, led by the Holy Spirit, included the numbers 1-7 for the seals, trumpets, and vials. And the 1-3 for the woes.
Why would any writer number things for any other reason than to order them?
My question to you is, since John went to the effort of ordering things, why must you even think you must rearrange what John wrote? Again, it is ONLY because of preconceived theories, and misunderstandings of the intent of the author in these scriptures.

Since you will not let go of your totally wrong idea that Christ comes at the 7th trumpet, when John shows Him coming in chapter 19, AFTER the entire 70th week has finished, there is little reason for us to discuss. I know that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, not the end. You will not believe this until you see it - no matter that John shows us the woman fleeing the abomination just a few verses AFTER the 7th trumpet.

Next, I wonder WHY you are so inconsistant? You take ONE (1) instance of the 3 1/2 years (1260 days) (42 months) out of the 5 that are mentioned in chapters 11-13, and add it to the timing, but the other four you make as a parenthesis. In other words, John is just a few days before the midpoint in his narrative when he introduces the two witnesses, and mentions the 1260 days, and you think the next realtime event, the 7th trumpet MUST BE 1260 days later. But when John mentions the 1260 days or fleeing, DO YOU THINK THE WAR IN HEAVEN IS 1260 DAYS AFTER THE FLEEING? When John mentions the time, times and half of time, do you believe that it is 3 1/2 years later when the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of her seed? Do you think it is 42 months later, after John sees the beast rise out of the sea, when the SECOND beast shows up? Do you believe the two witnesses show up 42 months after the trampling begins in the court of the temple? I don't think you believe any of these things; else the 7 years would stretch into 17 years. Therefore, you are INCONSISTANT: you take only ONE of the 5, and say that ONLY THIS ONE actually runs the entire time before the next realtime event (in this case, the 7th trumpet.) The truth is, EACH of these five mentions are as parallel accounts, and are meant to be taken as parenthesis. Therefore, the 7th trumpet comes minutes or days (at the very most) after the trampling begins at the temple in Jerusalem. (NOT 1260 days later.)

II Th 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(KJV)

The revealing with take moments. The taking vengence will take a little longer. The punishment will go on forever. Just which "revealing" is this speaking of? WHEN does HE come "taking vengence?" Certainly this is the Rev. 19 coming.

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

Just as Paul says, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them..."

But would these verses still be true, if the day of the Lord was an extended period of time, and these verses only spoke of the BEGINNING of that day? Of course, they would still be true.

Where do you see this melting in the book of Revelation?

Zeph 1:14-18
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(KJV)

Is this "near" in time, or in place?

Zeph 2:1-3
1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
(KJV)

If the pretrib rapture is truth, and it surely is, there will be plenty of people left behind, and some of those left behind, will indeed, be "hid." Rev. 12:6 speaks of some that will be hid.

Veteran, all these scriptures will be fulfilled during the day of the Lord. But that day does not happen "at" the sixth seal; that is only the SIGNS that the day of the Lord will begin very soon. You forget what Joel says: these signs come BEFORE the day of the Lord. PLEASE keep in mind, this is a seal (probably of wax) put on a scroll. All that happens is that Jesus breaks this seal, so perhaps a portion of the scroll may be read. How long will it take for a world wide earthquake? Usually earthquakes are over in seconds or a few minutes. How long will it take for the signs in the sun and moon? Probably only one 24 hour period of time. Then we read what is written: "For the great day of his wrath is come..." They recognize what they have just seen as the prophecied SIGNS that the day of the Lord WILL COME (not has finished) very soon - or is imminent.

YOu seem to think that the 7th trumpet/7th vial are the SAME event. You are TOTALLY wrong. Just as wrong in thinking that the 6th seal might be the same as the 6th trumpet or 6th vial. When you meet John, he may ask you, "why do you think I numbered these events?"

But, as I said, you have such an urge to rearrange. For the readers, the truth is, NO trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken. HOW could the scroll be unrolled to see the trumpet judgments unless all 7 seals are broken? They MUST be broken before the scroll (book) can be unrolled. Next, NOT ONE vial can be poured out, until ALL SEVEN trumpets have sounded. This is the intent of the author, and it is the way it is written. Again, readers, if your theories must rearrange the order of events, it is your theory that is wrong, not the God given Chronology of Revelation.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I already know you have an uncontrollable urge to rearrange. And this comes from your belief that John did not write in a chronological manner. And this belief comes from preconceived theories and glasses. If you would take off all preconceptions, and read it as if you had never heard it before, with an open mind, you would find that John was very chronological. Is it numerology? Sorry, but John, led by the Holy Spirit, included the numbers 1-7 for the seals, trumpets, and vials. And the 1-3 for the woes.
Why would any writer number things for any other reason than to order them?
My question to you is, since John went to the effort of ordering things, why must you even think you must rearrange what John wrote? Again, it is ONLY because of preconceived theories, and misunderstandings of the intent of the author in these scriptures.

You're drunken in the night on the doctrines of men, and it's you that's trying to rearrange the "last trump" or 7th trumpet event of our Lord's coming to fit into the false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory. That's why you refuse to recognize the event order of the last two woe periods written in Rev.11.

As you've stated elsewhere, you believe the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint of the tribulation, instead of at the end of it like Scripture shows when our Lord comes. Trying to misplace the 7th trumpet by whatever means is to do a re-arranging of the 7th trumpet to fit the Pre-Trib theories. The vision you've had is false.

 

[lecoop]

Veteran, I already know you have an uncontrollable urge to rearrange. And this comes from your belief that John did not write in a chronological manner. And this belief comes from preconceived theories and glasses. If you would take off all preconceptions, and read it as if you had never heard it before, with an open mind, you would find that John was very chronological. Is it numerology? Sorry, but John, led by the Holy Spirit, included the numbers 1-7 for the seals, trumpets, and vials. And the 1-3 for the woes.
Why would any writer number things for any other reason than to order them?
My question to you is, since John went to the effort of ordering things, why must you even think you must rearrange what John wrote? Again, it is ONLY because of preconceived theories, and misunderstandings of the intent of the author in these scriptures.

You're drunken in the night on the doctrines of men, and it's you that's trying to rearrange the "last trump" or 7th trumpet event of our Lord's coming to fit into the false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory. That's why you refuse to recognize the event order of the last two woe periods written in Rev.11.

As you've stated elsewhere, you believe the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint of the tribulation, instead of at the end of it like Scripture shows when our Lord comes. Trying to misplace the 7th trumpet by whatever means is to do a re-arranging of the 7th trumpet to fit the Pre-Trib theories. The vision you've had is false.

No Veteran, the 11th chapter is a MIDPOINT chapter, not an end of week chapter. I have left it right where John put it. But, since you have believed that Paul's last trump (sounded by God Himself) is one and the same as the 7th trumpet (sounded by an angel) no wonder you must move the 7th trumpet to the end of the week. One error compounds another, until your theories are a hodgepodge of error. The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with Christ's coming, or the rapture. It marks the exact midpoint of the week. Just 10 (ten) - please count them - ten verses after the 7th trumpet is sounded, the woman is fleeing into the wilderness. Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

So again, WHY are they fleeing? Because they have JUST SEEN THE ABOMINATION. But a bigger question is, why can't you see this? In your scenario, they are fleeing the coming of Jesus!! :rolling :rolling :rolling

As I said before, your theories can actually be funny! (If they were not so pathetic.)

The order of the last two woe periods is a piece of cake, since they are numbered.

Scorpians sting people - after the 5th angel has sounded his trumpet. This takes place somewhere in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week. Then:

Rev 9:12
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13And the sixth angel sounded....

The second woe then, is the 6th trumpet judgment - the death of 1/3 of the earth.

This takes place LATE in the first half of the 70th week

Rev 11
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded;

Now - in YOUR scenario, the entire second half of the week is BETWEEN woe 2 and woe 3 - since you think this 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the week. Therefore, about the only thing left for you to pick for the 3rd woe, is the battle of Armageddon.

This is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! First, it says it will come QUICKLY. Quickly after what? You have put 3 1/2 years plus between the second woe and the third. Second, since you have pushed it off the the end of the week, it cannot be the vials of God's wrath, but must be some event AFTER the week.

Veteran, how much simpler things are, if you have the 7th trumpet where God put it, at the midpoint. The first two woes come just before the midpoint, and the third woe IS the 7th trumpet, which is the key to start the vials. So the entire 7 vials ARE the 3rd woe. At the 7th trumpet, Satan's lease runs out, and the kingdoms of the world become the kindoms of our Lord. Since Satan is not longer the god of the world, immediately after the 7th trumpet, he is kicked out of the heavenlies. But even before that, the woman flees into the wilderness. With the 7th trumpet at the midpoint, where John put it, then these events take place just after the midpoint of the week. And John then shows us the beast, who will be revealed for who he really is, at the abomination. It is all written in the perfect order, with NO REASON to rearrange.

How is it, Veteran, that you cannot recognize the difference between a trump sounded by God, and one sounded by an angel?

Coop

 

[veteran]

Folks, what Coop is doing that causes confusion in study of our Lord's Book of Revelation, is treating each Revelation chapter like their events happen in chronological chapter order. It's obvious that not all... events given in the chapters allow one to do that:

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

Notice that 6th seal event parallels events at the end of the tribulation also given at the end of the 11th, 14th, 16th, and 18th and 19th chapters. Those events are about Christ's coming and His wrath poured upon the wicked, so what's that event doing here early in Revelation 6? I mean the Revelation chapters happen in order don't they, so that means the chapter's events follow that too, right? Wrong!

Revelation chapters 17, 18, and 19 are even a specific picture of the "judgment of the great whore" of Revelation, and coincide with the time of Christ's coming and the pouring out of His wrath upon the wicked, i.e., 6th seal, 7th trumpet events. The 17th chapter is merely a description of the "great whore", and reveals more of its symbols given back in Rev.13. Yet with Rev.17:1, one of the angels with the seven vials tells John he's going to show him the "judgment of the great whore".

With the last 3 trumpets which each have a 'woe' period attached to them, we CAN be certain those events tied with them DO happen in chronological fashion, like Coop's trying do everywhere else in Revelation.

In Rev.11, we're given events of the tribulation timing, the 42 month reign of the "dragon", tied to the time when the Gentiles (deceived Gentiles) will tread the court of the temple in Jerusalem for 42 months, a time when God sends His "two witnesses" to testify against it for 1260 days. All that is on the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe period which began in Rev.9:12 forward. When God's two witnesses are killed after they've finished their testimony of 1260 days, after 3 and 1/2 days they are resurrected. In that same "hour" the events of the 7th trumpet - third woe happens, bringing Christ's judgment upon the wicked, and His eternal reign on earth begins with His elect priests and kings.

Here's the events of the very end of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, and start of the 7th trumpet - third woe period...

Rev 11:12-18
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

Yet Coop denies that order there of the three last trumpet-woe periods whose events are in order. That 6th trumpet-2nd woe period is the last half of the 7 years "one week" prophecy of Daniel (1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years). Per Matt.24, Christ said His coming would be AFTER that tribulation, and that's what is also shown at the end of Rev.11 with the events of the 7th trumpet-3rd woe period. Yet Coop denies that, but why?

It's because of men's doctrines involving the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, which is a doctrine that cannot be supported in God's Word. The seminaries of the Pre-Trib school have for a long time tried to REARRANGE the order of events given in Revelation to make it fit THEIR false doctrines of a pre-tribulational rapture. Some of them wrongly teach that past the 4th chapter of Revelation, Christ's Church is no longer on earth. THAT's where the false teaching comes from that you can just follow the Revelation chapters in order thinking their events are also in perfect order. I've shown in the above how doing that can mislead.

And that's the kind of false doctrines those like Coop are on, and he's trying to be real 'sneaky' about it, because he wants us to think the 7th trumpet of Christ's coming is at the midpoint of the tribulation, which would mean a Pre-trib rapture prior to the 1260 days tribulation of the 6th trumpet-2nd woe period! But the Scripture IS VERY CLEAR Christ does NOT come on the 6th trumpet-2nd woe period, but on the 7th trumpet-3rd woe period.

 

[lecoop]

Folks, what Coop is doing that causes confusion in study of our Lord's Book of Revelation, is treating each Revelation chapter like their events happen in chronological chapter order. It's obvious that not all... events given in the chapters allow one to do that:

For the readers, perhaps the confusion is only with Veteran. It is very plain that the 6th seal is in chapter 6, NOT CHAPTER 19. Please notice the way John writes:

After he has written the letters to the churches, he writes, "After this."

Are these not chronological words?

Rev 7:1 "1And after these things..."
Rev 7:9 "After this I beheld"

Are not these chronogical words?

6:1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals...
3And when he had opened the second seal,
5And when he had opened the third seal
7And when he had opened the fourth seal
9And when he had opened the fifth seal,
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal
8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal
John keeps his numbering in order. These are NOT jumbled up. They are numbered for the purpose of ordering.

8:6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Does not preparation always come before an event?

7 The first angel sounded,
8 And the second angel sounded
10 And the third angel sounded
12 And the fourth angel sounded
Here an angel warns of three woes
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded
9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Not only does John keep the trumpets in order, He also keeps the woes in order.
9:13 And the sixth angel sounded
11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(Yet in Veteran's theory, the third woe is 1260 days later!! Is that "quickly?")

(this verse shows us that the 6th trumpet WAS the second woe.
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded

Now, for the readers: does it not seem like John is interested in Chronology? Does John write these in sequence? Of course He does.

Now for a quiz: after reading up to chapter 11, and seeing that John has been perfectly chronological, why would anyone assume that he would change?

Veteran says that it is "obvious that not all... events given in the chapters" "happen in chronological chapter order." This is his opinion, but is it true? We both agree that there are some events that parallel each other, such as the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years (or 1260 days or 42 months). But even these five are given in a specific order, with the trampling of the temple given first.
Again, I want to ask, since John was SO perfectly chronological in the first ten chapters, why would anyone think he would change?

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

Notice that 6th seal event parallels events at the end of the tribulation also given at the end of the 11th, 14th, 16th, and 18th and 19th chapters. Those events are about Christ's coming and His wrath poured upon the wicked, so what's that event doing here early in Revelation 6? I mean the Revelation chapters happen in order don't they, so that means the chapter's events follow that too, right? Wrong!

This is simply Veteran's personal opinion. We do find other eathquakes, but they are different that this one. The earthquake at the 7th vial cannot possibly be this one, for it is FAR more powerful.
At the end of the 11th chapter, we find a prophecy given by the elders, of future events. They certainly all do not happen in the time frame of the 11th chapter. For example, does the great hail really fall in the temple in heaven, or does it really fall on the earth, at the 7th vial? In a vision, hail can fall in the throne room in heaven, but it is as a prophecy, speaking of future events. But, Veteran seems to think that this chapter (or at least part of it) should be much later in the book. I leave this up to the readers: is this a prophecy given by the 24 elders, or is this parallel with some other part of the book?

In Chapter 14, we find a harvest being done with sickles. I leave this up to the readers: will angels truly use sickes to harvest humans? Or, should we look at this as figurative? Will human beings actually be cast into a giant winepress, and the blood all squeezed out? Or again, is this only figurative, painting a picture, so to speak, of the battle of Armageddon? Since these events MUST BE figurative, then we must ask, will they occur in the real time of Chapter 14, or again, are they prophesying of future events? Considering a harvest as when fruit or grain is brought in to the barn, when does the resurrection happen? In Chapter 14? I don't think so! No, this is s prophecy of future events, one being the battle of Armageddon.

What about the 16th chapter?

1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went
3 And the second angel poured out his vial
4 And the third angel poured out his vial
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne, saying, It is done.

First question for the readers: does this seem more figurative, or more like realtime events happening at the moment that John saw them? My guess is realtime.
Second question: what "Is done?" (Some translations say "it is finished.") So what is done and finished?

I say this is the end of the 70th week of Daniel, and the end of Jacob's trouble. And I say it happens HERE in the 16th chapter, NOT in the 6th chapter. But, readers, you can make up your own mind.

Notice this first verse of 17: ...Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

You see, chapters 17 and 18 are showing a CLOSE UP view of the destruction that took place at the 7th vial and world wide earthquake, and 100 pound hail.

You are all familiar with chapter 19, when Jesus gets on the white horse, and descends to earth, to meet the enemies in the battle of Armageddon.

So, for the readers, does Jesus come back in realtime, in chapter 19, AFTER the 70th week has finished? My comment is, this is where John put His coming, so this MUST BE where and when it will happen.

For the readers, did Veteran prove his case that the events of the 6th seal, really belong to the END of the week?

I don't think so. John put them here as SIGNS of the beginning of the day of the Lord. Joel chapter two, mentioning the signs in the sun and moon, is fulfilled right here at the 6th seal. And Joel is clear that these signs come BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Therefore, according to what is written, the day of the Lord MUST COME AFTER the 6th seal. For the readers, does that seem difficult for you, if as Veteran says, the 6th seal is just another view of the 7th vial that ends the week?

Isaiah chapter 2, talking about men going into caves to hide from God, has its fulfillment right here at the 6th seal, and that chapter too, speaks of the day of the Lord.

Finally, we we just read what John wrote, the people there seem far wiser that Veteran, for they KNOW they have just seen the signs of the day of the Lord, so they are fearful of God's wrath; they KNOW the day of the Lord us about to fall.

2nd half to be continued

Coop

 

[lecoop]

2nd half continued:

Revelation chapters 17, 18, and 19 are even a specific picture of the "judgment of the great whore" of Revelation, and coincide with the time of Christ's coming and the pouring out of His wrath upon the wicked, i.e., 6th seal, 7th trumpet events. The 17th chapter is merely a description of the "great whore", and reveals more of its symbols given back in Rev.13. Yet with Rev.17:1, one of the angels with the seven vials tells John he's going to show him the "judgment of the great whore".

Indeed, chapters 17 and 18 ARE about the destruction of Babylon. But John shows Jesus coming AFTER the final vial ends the week. Please note, John begins chapter 19 with the familiar, "1And after these things." As I said before, these two chapters are a microscope view of the end of Babylon. But when did this happen? I believe it all happened at the 7th vial where it is written, "it is done." In truth, this final end of babylon, at the 7th vial, takes place 3 1/2 years after the 7th trumpet. It takes place over 7 years after the 6th seal. But, I will let the readers decide.

With the last 3 trumpets which each have a 'woe' period attached to them, we CAN be certain those events tied with them DO happen in chronological fashion, like Coop's trying do everywhere else in Revelation.

This is the ONE part of Revelation that Veteran sees as Chronoligical: the three woes. But, HOW does he judge that? They are numbered, one two and three - but SO ARE THE SEALS, TRUMPETS AND VIALS!

In Rev.11, we're given events of the tribulation timing, the 42 month reign of the "dragon", tied to the time when the Gentiles (deceived Gentiles) will tread the court of the temple in Jerusalem for 42 months, a time when God sends His "two witnesses" to testify against it for 1260 days. All that is on the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe period which began in Rev.9:12 forward. When God's two witnesses are killed after they've finished their testimony of 1260 days, after 3 and 1/2 days they are resurrected. In that same "hour" the events of the 7th trumpet - third woe happens, bringing Christ's judgment upon the wicked, and His eternal reign on earth begins with His elect priests and kings.

Here is where Veteran and I totally disagree. Notice, readers, how John ends chapter 9:

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

You see, the 6th trumpet is FINISHED. DONE. COMPLETED. Now, other events will follow, but NOT ASSOCIATED with the 6th trumpet; just AFTER it. So these events are in chapter 10. During the trumpets, John is approaching the midpoint in his narrative. Each trumpet sounded, brings the world closer to the abomination. So when John gets to chapter 11, he is VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint of the week. (Veteran ignores this chronology.) 11:2 mentions the 42 months. Since they are to start right here, in 11:2, this is PROOF that John is right at the midpoint of the week! For this time to the end will be 42 months. Then, in the next verse, John introduces the two witnesses, and they will testify for 1260 days. So from this verse to the end we know it will be to the exact day, 1260 days.

For the readers: please note, there are three more mentions of this 3 1/2 year period, two in chapter 12, and one in chapter 13. Does it not make sense that EACH of these is a HINT that John is close to the midpoint? EAch of these mentions of the 42 months or 1260 days, are of an event that will begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week; so each is a strong hint that John is AT THE MIDPOINT in His narrative.

For the readers: here Veteran does something very strange, with the 1260 days of the two witnesses, but does not repeat it with the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of fleeing or the 42 months of the Beast's authority: He allows the entire 1260 days to run out right IN chapter 11, so that the next event, the 7th trumpet must be at the end of the week !!!

In comparison, he takes all the other mentions of the 42 months and 1260 days, as parenthesis, so no real time is run out in the text.

So, for the readers, Is Veteran right? Or is the 1260 days of the two witnesses to be taken as a parenthesis too, just as the other 4 mentions of this time period are taken?

I believe that 11:3, where the two witnesses are introduced, is - in real time - just a few days BEFORE the exact midpoint. Then, verses 4-13 are to be taken as a parenthesis, and NOT AT ALL a part of the realtime narative. So in verses 2 and 3, John is just a few days before the abomination, and then in verse 14, "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly," John is STILL MOMENTS before the midpoint. This makes the 7th trumpet a MIDPOINT trumpet, not and end of the week trumpet. After all, it is in chapter 11, NOT chapter 16-19. After all, almost immediately AFTER this 7th trumpet is sounded, John shows the woman fleeing into the wilderness!

In Veteran's scenario, the woman is fleeing the coming of Jesus, not the abomination.

So, I will leave this point to the readers to decide too. I leave the 7th trumpet right where John put it, at the midpoint of the week. Veteran wants it to be at the END of the week.

Here's the events of the very end of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, and start of the 7th trumpet - third woe period...

I disagree: the 6th trumpet ENDED and was FINISHED at the end of Chapter 9. These events just come "after."

Rev 11:12-18
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

Yet Coop denies that order there of the three last trumpet-woe periods whose events are in order. That 6th trumpet-2nd woe period is the last half of the 7 years "one week" prophecy of Daniel (1260 days, or 42 months, or three and one half years). Per Matt.24, Christ said His coming would be AFTER that tribulation, and that's what is also shown at the end of Rev.11 with the events of the 7th trumpet-3rd woe period. Yet Coop denies that, but why?

I definitely do not deny that these three woes are in order. Of course they are in order, and NUMBERED.

Of course I deny that the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe is the last half of the week. John has not yet gotten to the midpoint yet! He has not yet mentioned ONE of the five events listing the 1260 days or 42 months.
The 6th trumpet is perhaps sounded a few months (maybe 7?) BEFORE the abomination. But, Veteran sees it this way, because he has moved the 7th trumpet to the END of the week, instead of leaving it to mark the midpoint, as John wrote it.

Readers, next Veteran insists that Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet. But is there ONE WORD about the 7th trumpet that shows His coming? My bible shows his coming in chapter 19, about 3 1/2 years AFTER the 7th trumpet. Of course, Veteran sees this, because he thinks this 7th trumpet is Paul's "last trump." But how can that be? Paul's last trump, according to 1 Thes 4:17, is the trump of 'God, NOT an angelic trumpet. Next, there is simply not biblical proof that Paul's last trump has anything to do with THIS series of trumpets.

Indeed, Chapter 19 IS after the 70th week has finished. I will not argue that point at all. Jesus DOES come after the week has finished.

It's because of men's doctrines involving the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, which is a doctrine that cannot be supported in God's Word. The seminaries of the Pre-Trib school have for a long time tried to REARRANGE the order of events given in Revelation to make it fit THEIR false doctrines of a pre-tribulational rapture. Some of them wrongly teach that past the 4th chapter of Revelation, Christ's Church is no longer on earth. THAT's where the false teaching comes from that you can just follow the Revelation chapters in order thinking their events are also in perfect order. I've shown in the above how doing that can mislead.

For the readers: have I even mentioned the rapture? Did I bring into my argument any theory of the rapture? Again, Veteran must revert to strawmen. I just took John for what he wrote, without moving or rearranging things at all. John put the 7th trumpet in chapter 11, not in chapter 19. John wrote of TWO of the five 1260 days/42 months time periods BEFORe the 7th Trumpet, and THREE AFTER. In other words, the 7th trumpet is SANDWICHED between 5 mentions of the last 3 1/2 years. Since EACH of these five is a strong hint of the midpoint (the count starts where it is mentioned), the 7th trumpet MUST be a part of the midpoint events - and it is.

And that's the kind of false doctrines those like Coop are on, and he's trying to be real 'sneaky' about it, because he wants us to think the 7th trumpet of Christ's coming is at the midpoint of the tribulation, which would mean a Pre-trib rapture prior to the 1260 days tribulation of the 6th trumpet-2nd woe period! But the Scripture IS VERY CLEAR Christ does NOT come on the 6th trumpet-2nd woe period, but on the 7th trumpet-3rd woe period.

Am I sneaky? I teach the midpoint events exactly as John has written them. I see the 7th trumpet as a marker for the exact midpoint of the week. John shows us the woman fleeing, just a few verses after the 7th trumpet. That is NOT an accident.

One thing is quite sure: I am not going to believe chapter 11 as Veteran believes it.


Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop
First off, you based this entire post on a falacy: John was in the spirit on SUNDAY, the day that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not transported in the future, for the vision of the throne room, was a vision of HIS PAST, back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

John was indeed transported in spirit to the future,this was not a Sunday...In the below verses,are all these Day of the Lord,Sundays

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.


Ezekiel 13:5
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.


Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.


Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.


Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;


Joel 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.


Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.


Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.


Amos 5:20
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Obadiah 1:15
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.


Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.


Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:


1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Or are you saying the Day of the Lord and the Lord's day are different?

Let's look at the verse in question

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

If you think this is a Sunday,you are greatly mistaken.....

 

[poohbah]

Re: simply..

we have yet to see the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

"this" will be a time when the world will realize its ungodliness.