Are you prolife or prochoice?

[Heidi Mighty Mo]

edit: this is in response to saved4life's last post

Yep! :

And don't get me wrong, I do not agree with the statement that if someone loses their faith in God that it means they never had it... I am in no place to judge them. Maybe they had faith but it was weak, or maybe it was strong at one time but then they allowed the pressures of life and hardships to come between them and God. Who knows?

BTW...I put the word Christians in quotes because I have no idea who these people are that I am being compared to.

 

[saved4life]

Whether you realize it or not life is about avoiding suffering, seeking to fulfill needs, and reproducing to satisfy an instinct and insure that you don't grow old and wrinkled without the unconditional love of children. It's a continual cycle.

Suffering does what people choose it does for them based upon their intepretation of it. It has no intrinsic purpose in itself.

The elephant man's life was meaningless. He suffered immensely. Was he a wonderful person? Yes! Did his suffering mean anything? No!

Would a person be moral to bring another elephant man into the world if they knew for a fact that they would be so hideously deformed and suffer so much?

I say no. I say it would be SELFISH to bring that person into the world.

It would also be selfish to bring a morbidly retarded child into the world. You'd want them to suffer to satsify some idea in your head that their suffering was meaningful and that you are being noble in shouldering their burden.

 

[Steve]

Good question. Well.............first of all, I am a firm believer in, and proponent of birth control. Basically, I'm "almost" for zero population growth.

Truthfully, I really don't know where I stand on abortion. I would never advise someone to have one, but, I'm not entirely against it, either. I do know that I am sick to death of hearing about it.

It's not "my" issue.

 

[Grace Alone]

So, saved4life, would you be okay with rounding up all the homeless people in Chicago and NYC, and say, gassing them, or something? I mean, after all, their lives are meaningless and you could put an end to their suffering.

 

[Grace Alone]

.......Even if you don't do the philosophy it strikes me as patently obvious that a human being is no less human because his arms are missing, or his legs are gone, or his fingers are webbed, or his nose is pug, or his features seem grotesque, because inside there is still a human being that is fearfully and wonderfully made........We do a terrible disservice when we presume that this child's life is not worthy of being lived because we know through amniocentesis or through sonogram that it's going to be born with something less than the body parts we deem most efficient or preferable, and so we decide to kill it.

Do you know what the suicide rate is among handicapped people? Zero. That's it. Zero. These people don't kill themselves, these that are born with congenital defects. They want to live. Why? Because there is more to life than just body parts. They know that. We should too.

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/ab ... mnotaf.htm

 

[saved]

I am pro-life. No abortion for any reason. Tell the Doc. to do all he can to save the child and all he can to save the mother and let God determine the outcome.

Now that being said there is one exception. There is a time when the child cannot be saved. That's when A woman has a tubule pregnancy. When that happens the zygote has attached itself to the uterine wall. There is absolutely no chance of saving the child since it cannot survive because it will kill the mother 100% of the time and perish with her. The only thing that can be done is remove the zygote. If the time comes when we have medical abilities to transplant the fertilized egg to the proper place then it would be different, but for now we cannot.

Sometimes I here someone say that it is the woman's body and she should have the right to decide what to do with it. However they never want to kill themselves. It is always another's body that they want to kill.

Others may claim that it is not a person until a certain amount of time in the womb, but the bible does not teach such. The bible teaches that God sees us as His creation from fertilization. We do not get to decide when someone becomes a person. God has already done that and anyone who disagrees stands against Him.

 

[Scott]

I'm anti-murder.

 

[Wertbag]

What about contraception? It seems to be a belief that that is bad, and that masterbation is bad. Is that because sperm is considered to be life? Or is there more to it than that?

 

[saved4life]

So, saved4life, would you be okay with rounding up all the homeless people in Chicago and NYC, and say, gassing them, or something? I mean, after all, their lives are meaningless and you could put an end to their suffering.

Nope, and there is no parallel.

Some of these people do commit suicide, though, as they are hopelessly addicted to drugs and alcohol and have gone too far down (they think) to rejoin society.

 

[way2groovy1]

I once knew a couple that was expecting and the doctor called them in and said their baby had some sort of disease probably wouldn't make it. (It's been a long time since he told me this story so I hope I am getting my facts straight)
The husband became very angry at the doctor for even suggesting it and he took his wife and stormed out of the office. But not before saying, "We are going to have a baby boy!"
A day after she was supposed to have the abortion, the office called and said they had made a mistake and the baby with perfectly healthy.

 

[Vic C.]

I once knew a couple that was expecting and the doctor called them in and said their baby had some sort of disease probably wouldn't make it. (It's been a long time since he told me this story so I hope I am getting my facts straight)
The husband became very angry at the doctor for even suggesting it and he took his wife and stormed out of the office. But not before saying, "We are going to have a baby boy!"
A day after she was supposed to have the abortion, the office called and said they had made a mistake and the baby with perfectly healthy.

: :x :-? :D :

 

[Featherbop]

Anyone who believes that abortion is okay should be aborted.

 

[saved4life]

Anyone who believes that abortion is okay should be aborted.

Therefore, you should be aborted.

 

[Grace Alone]

So, saved4life, would you be okay with rounding up all the homeless people in Chicago and NYC, and say, gassing them, or something? I mean, after all, their lives are meaningless and you could put an end to their suffering.

Nope, and there is no parallel.

Some of these people do commit suicide, though, as they are hopelessly addicted to drugs and alcohol and have gone too far down (they think) to rejoin society.

Tell me why there is no parallel. Please. And could you answer my questions from a previous post concerning where the line is between a life of suffering, and a life worth living?

And what about the quote I posted about the rate of suicide being ZERO among handicapped people.....if their life is so very terrible, why don't they just end it? Instead, they often appreciate life more than the rest of us, yet you're telling them that they don't deserve to live, and that you would infact kill them, if you had such a choice. I think that's despicably sad.

 

[Steve]

What about contraception? It seems to be a belief that that is bad, and that masterbation is bad. Is that because sperm is considered to be life? Or is there more to it than that?

As I said in my last post, I am 200% in favour of contraception. I constantly tell my clients to use birth control measures. I am basically "for" zero population growth.
I have no problems with masturbation. There are no Scriptures about it.
I would never advise someone to have an abortion, but I'm not totally against it, either.
January is not my favourite month, cuz we get "abortioned" to death the entire month. I get sick of it.
If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

I am basically "for" zero population growth.

Why? Is it because you are afraid of overpopulation.

I would never advise someone to have an abortion, but I'm not totally against it, either.

Steve, if you don't mind, start a new thread on "Christian Talk" and we'll discuss the topic - I think you might like to hear some of my thoughts on the subject (let's not do it here because it will inevitably become a theistic v. atheistic nightmare).

If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one.

I would think you were smarter than that, Steve. That's like saying, "if you don't like murder, then don't murder" or "if you don't like stealing, then don't steal." If this logic were applied throughout history, we would have a very poor situation on our hands right now - if people think something is wrong then they should definitely make their opinion known... if their opinion is valid in the eyes of a majority then there's a good chance it will have an impact.

BL

 

[saved4life]

Tell me why there is no parallel. Please. And could you answer my questions from a previous post concerning where the line is between a life of suffering, and a life worth living?

Obviously there is no parallel because there is no comparison to a developed person with personality, memory, consciousness, history, intelligence, dreams, relationships, talents, fears, opinions, and ideals vs. a zygote with nothing but possible potential but not self-viability.

And what about the quote I posted about the rate of suicide being ZERO among handicapped people.....if their life is so very terrible, why don't they just end it? Instead, they often appreciate life more than the rest of us, yet you're telling them that they don't deserve to live, and that you would infact kill them, if you had such a choice. I think that's despicably sad.

1st thing: The claim that handicapped people have a zero percent suicide rate is ridiculous. Maybe among the severly retarded who don't have the brains to know how to kill themselves. Also, it takes intelligence to be depressed. Plenty are dumb and happy, yes.

Many people who BECOME severely handicapped, do get severely depressed, and DO kill themselves. In fact, the whole "right to die with dignity" movement is based on people becoming devastatingly disabled and no longer seeing the joy or purpose in being alive.

I did not say retarded or disabled people don't deserve to be alive. I don't believe in the concept of "deserving" to be alive, period. I do know that they don't deserve to be born with horrible afflictions, though, and that their suffering is not the result of Adam and Eve's being taken by a talking snake. That's obviously metaphorical, so will not turn to the Bible to get my information on what is right and wrong in matters of life and death.

I do know, that certain conditions make life worth living and enjoyable. Being alive in itself is not good.

I'll repeat that:

Being alive in itself is not good. If that was true, all the people in your fictional hell would be happy because even though they are in constant agony at least they are still conscious.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Obviously there is no parallel because there is no comparison to a developed person with personality, memory, consciousness, history, intelligence, dreams, relationships, talents, fears, opinions, and ideals vs. a zygote with nothing but possible potential but not self-viability.

Whether there is or wheter there isn't, let's talk about something a little further along in development, after all, the zygote is a very brief stage and hardly anyone would ever know they were pregnant during this stage - thus, it's not much of a factor regarding abortion (disregarding b/c at the moment).

How about a fetus? That's a much easier thing to discuss and quite frankly a more meaningful debate. The fetus has memory, dreams, fears, history, consciousness (albeit only between its long periods of sleep), etc. Why should it not parallel a "developed" person (whatever that is)?

The claim that handicapped people have a zero percent suicide rate is ridiculous.

Yup.

Also, it takes intelligence to be depressed. Plenty are dumb and happy, yes.

Bigotted statement. You can be depressed and have low intelligence as "dumb" people are... However, I have yet to meet any person who had 0 intelligence. I'll consider it a semantical lack of care.

In fact, the whole "right to die with dignity" movement is based on people becoming devastatingly disabled and no longer seeing the joy or purpose in being alive.

That's because it's all about me, me, me and not looking at others. If you are willing to kill yourself, you're not thinking about other persons (except for some uncannily odd situation that I'm sure could be postulated).

I don't believe in the concept of "deserving" to be alive, period.

Do you deserve to be alive? If you don't, then why should I be punished if I kill you. You didn't deserve it anyway.

Being alive in itself is not good.

You agree with the Bible on this, believe it or not.

Jesus said that it would be better that the one who had him crucified never live. Job said that he wished that he had never been born when he was under such terrible circumstances. Being alive is not necessarily a good thing.

BL

 

[saved4life]

How about a fetus? That's a much easier thing to discuss and quite frankly a more meaningful debate. The fetus has memory, dreams, fears, history, consciousness (albeit only between its long periods of sleep), etc. Why should it not parallel a "developed" person (whatever that is)?

I think abortions should be limited to the 1st trimester except for situations that risk the life of the mother or if the baby is suffering from a significant disease that the mother thinks would not allow a satisfactory quality of life. What's significant? It would have to be debated.

That's because it's all about me, me, me and not looking at others. If you are willing to kill yourself, you're not thinking about other persons (except for some uncannily odd situation that I'm sure could be postulated).

Great. Pile more guilt on the person suffering the disease. They should stay alive and live their days out of guilt? Perhaps the other people who want a person to stay alive for them are being selfish?

I think if a person has obligations and responsibilities to other dependants then it is immoral to kill themselves. Obviously it would be wrong to kill yourself if you would be orphaning/abandonning children. But if you don't have dependants, it's a matter of weighing your pain with the pain of others when you die. Whose is greater? Whose will ease over time? Who has a support system to get through the suffering? After all, we all die eventually!

Do you deserve to be alive? If you don't, then why should I be punished if I kill you. You didn't deserve it anyway.

The default right to be alive is an agreement among society members. That is all.

Jesus said that it would be better that the one who had him crucified never live. Job said that he wished that he had never been born when he was under such terrible circumstances. Being alive is not necessarily a good thing.

Interesting. The person who played the crucial "role" of crucifying Jesus to save all of mankind would have been better off not existing? Yet another illogical moment in the Bible.

The story of Job always cracks me up. God torturing a poor man to try to prove a point to Satan. Oy-vay.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

I think abortions should be limited to the 1st trimester except for...

Well, that's a start. You're smarter than the average bear... a person who reflects the majority of Americans but currently not represented due to "femminazi" (just a humorous word) federal judges.

Great. Pile more guilt on the person suffering the disease.

You can bemoan it all you want; the bottom line is that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (even terminal diseases are temporary). If you cannot find reason in life just because you have been debilitated, perhaps you never really had found much true reason in the first place?

But if you don't have dependants, it's a matter of weighing your pain with the pain of others when you die. Whose is greater? Whose will ease over time? Who has a support system to get through the suffering? After all, we all die eventually!

Do you really think suicidals are thinking logically before they kill themselves? Just recently a mother committed suicide near where I live because she thought she was a terrible mother - in her mind it was the right thing to do (she left an explanatory note and everything). Too bad the kids and husband didn't see it that way and she just happened to have stopped taking her medicine recently.

So I say we leave it up to God... or from your point of view, random chance. Afterall, legalized suicide is just the first step towards legalized killing.

The default right to be alive is an agreement among society members. That is all.

You didn't really answer my question: do you deserve to live? And if not, why shouldn't I be allowed to kill you? I didn't ask you what society says, I asked for your answer.

The person who played the crucial "role" of crucifying Jesus to save all of mankind would have been better off not existing? Yet another illogical moment in the Bible.

I can understand why you would think that. But if you try to tell me why that is, you may find that it's not as cut and dry as you first think... and if not, then I'll explain it to you anyway.

The story of Job always cracks me up. God torturing a poor man to try to prove a point to Satan. Oy-vay.

God didn't torture Job. :-? God removed His protection from Job and allowed Satan to do whatever he wanted with him except kill him. God proved to a great deal of people, not just Satan, that faith and prosperity have nothing to do with each other... and that God listens to those who call on Him. Just think of all the people who have read Job!

Of course, I doubt that you like the answer very much, huh?

BL