Are you prolife or prochoice?

[Wertbag]

Theres a whole different debate, Euthanasia instead of abortion. Assisted suicide to someone who is going to die, whose only option at staying alive is a few more weeks of agony, seems alot more humane than telling them you must keep living. We put down animals to end their suffering when there is no way to help them, why do we not allow people to die with dignity?
Of course thats for terminal illness where there is no hope. Mental illness is not a valid reason for suicide. In the cases being widely debated the sick person is able to make an informed decision for themselves, but maybe physically unable to carry out their wishes.
If a doctor, phyciatrist and patient all agree that there is no hope, only ongoing suffering until painful death, then I see no reason why steps shouldn't be taken.

 

[Grace Alone]

The default right to be alive is an agreement among society members. That is all.

So then it would be okay to kill you? And would you be okay with the idea of your mother having chosen to abort you, rather than give you a life? A real answer, please. Can you please tell me the exact perameters within which it is okay to kill. Anything goes?

Obviously there is no parallel because there is no comparison to a developed person with personality, memory, consciousness, history, intelligence, dreams, relationships, talents, fears, opinions, and ideals vs. a zygote with nothing but possible potential but not self-viability.

Yet homeless peoples' lives are worthless by most standards...just like those developing human beings within the womb, who may not be exactly "normal" by our standards. Actually, I could argue that the potential for a good life is much greater for one yet in the womb, than one who has squandered his life and is living on the streets being a burden to society. Agree, or disagree?

You've still not answered my question on where the line is between a life that is worth living, and one that is not.....

And you know what, you keep supporting your arguement with the abortion of handicapped babies. What about a normal fetus who is aborted (which is most often the case)? It's still okay right, since there is no ultimate meaning.

 

[Featherbop]

I'm just ready for someone to outlaw abortions completely.

The only thing I can think of that I don't know is what if both mother and child would die if the baby is not aborted. But I don't think that happens much.
______

BTW saved, I don't think its okay to abort the abortionists, I just think it would help the country. : :P :robot:

 

[way2groovy1]

I have for many years now been prolife, but the reality of life wasn't as evident until I gave birth to my first child.

I wrote this poem sometime last year:
http://enigma258.tripod.com/way2groovysite/id4.html

"We cannot condone the killing of one group no matter how noble the assertion that it is for the greatest common good. If the most innocent and weak among us, pre-born babies, cannot be protected, then none of us are truly safe," commented Troy Newman.

 

[saved4life]

You can bemoan it all you want; the bottom line is that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (even terminal diseases are temporary). If you cannot find reason in life just because you have been debilitated, perhaps you never really had found much true reason in the first place?

True reason? : There you go again thinking that life has some grand meaning and that it is worth living no matter what.

Our lives are a bunch of 24-hour periods strung together. We spend 1/3 of the day sleeping. 1/3 of the day working. And the other 1/3 eating, pooping, and getting ready to go to work or go to bed. We also do recreational activities that are designed to be "pastimes" and spend any other time usually being preoccupied with the unending demands of our reproductive drives.

When you are, say paralyzed from the neck down, you don't have a whole lot you can do. The things that used to bring you joy or are now out of your reach. Some people can "adapt" and find that they can be happy just reading or using whatever mechanized help they can to do various projects. BUT SOME NEVER DO. Would I judge them and say "no, you have to stay alive?" Hell no.

 

[Grace Alone]

Saved4life wrote:

True reason? : There you go again thinking that life has some grand meaning and that it is worth living no matter what.

Our lives are a bunch of 24-hour periods strung together. We spend 1/3 of the day sleeping. 1/3 of the day working. And the other 1/3 eating, pooping, and getting ready to go to work or go to bed. We also do recreational activities that are designed to be "pastimes" and spend any other time usually being preoccupied with the unending demands of our reproductive drives.

This is a copout answer, which leads me to believe that you have no solid arguement beyond the fact that nothing matters - in your (very wrong) opinion. Is that all that it breaks down to: you believe abortion is fine and good because all is meaningless? I'm just trying to get to the heart of your arguement.

For an atheist to use this premise in a philisophical manner, it may sound legitimate, but it doesn't cut it when you bring your arguement into real world situations. That's why you can't answer our questions as to whether it is morally permissible for us to kill you, or where the line is between suffering/non-suffering, etc. The fact is, whether you like it or not, we humans are more than the biological machines you described above, and our experiences and relationships do matter and are more than gathering "pastimes." We are beings with a soul and the ability to transcend this physical world. That's why even those who are paralyzed - to use your example - often find the will and desire to live despite their tragedy. Because we have a rich inner life (or at least have the potential to develop one) that is even more important and gratifying than our physical one. I know that you don't agree with that, and will tell me I am wrong, but that is one thing that I know without a doubt, and it is in fact you, who are tragically wrong.

So if you are unnable to answer the questions you've neglected, maybe we should start with this one simple question:

Do you believe that to have an abortion is to kill a human being? Yes or No?

 

[Blue-Lightning]

True reason? There you go again thinking that life has some grand meaning and that it is worth living no matter what.

Silly me - I acknowledge human purpose and sanctity of life... of course, I make no bones about it either. You can think it sentimental folly if you want, but I'll gladly play the part of the sap if being a sap feels so good. And you certainly can't argue against that from your humanist (?) position - I've found happinesss and that's all that matters isn't it? You on the other hand struggle with happiness to some degree, correct?

When you are, say paralyzed from the neck down, you don't have a whole lot you can do.

:roll:

The things that used to bring you joy or are now out of your reach. Some people can "adapt" and find that they can be happy just reading or using whatever mechanized help they can to do various projects. BUT SOME NEVER DO. Would I judge them and say "no, you have to stay alive?" Hell no.

Don't lecture me on being handicapped or having a disability and judging people who do... Jesus said not to judge others when you have worse problems yourself - in essence don't be hypocritical. Trust me, I'm not being judgemental or hypocritical of anyone... their situations are difficult, but out of difficult situations can come much good.

This morning I went and worked out for a while - it's one of the few things that I can do for the moment as my asthmatic condition has worsened and not even the strongest inhalors do anything. I went and shot some foul shots to keep from being sore later on but I couldn't help thinking about how disspointing it has been to not be able to participate in any aerobic activity such as sports which used to bring me so much joy. I hope that soon my doctors and I can find a prescription that will control my asthma, but for now I'm unable to do a lot of things for very long.

My sports and games were fun, still are and I enjoy watching them, but they don't bring me lasting joy. They don't fulfill me. None of that stuff ever can. If people don't know how to find that lasting joy, then I can see how people get depressed, how they could give up at the loss of mobility/function... but me... I've got too much to give as long as my neurons are firing. I can give no matter my situation and often even when I don't realize it - if I remove myself from life because my life isn't very good then what a selfish person I have become.

That's why you can't answer our questions as to whether it is morally permissible for us to kill you...

Everybody else is just a part of science and I'm just observing it. Wait a minute, I'm a part of it too! *gasp*

Good comment Grace,

BL

 

[saved4life]

So if you are unnable to answer the questions you've neglected, maybe we should start with this one simple question:

Do you believe that to have an abortion is to kill a human being? Yes or No

It would be wrong to kill me (or anybody) because you would be killing all the things I mentioned before that a developed person has vs. a zygote. Your killing of another person nullifies your agreement (as part of society) that we all have a default right to exist if we can manage to keep ourselves alive, and will put you into peril of losing your own life, also per our societal agreement. A zygote cannot keep itself alive separate from the mother. A born child can by means of adoption.

"right to live" and "deserve to live" are concepts. They are nothing without a person's conceptualization, rationalization, and imagination behind them. That's why there's such a disagreement among people on matters of abortion, the death penalty, euthansia, and suicide.

Abortion is not a thing that makes me happy. But the thought that a woefully developmentally disabled person would come into this life because a crack-addicted mother who sold her body to some low-lifes to support her drug-habit and has no means of supporting or raising the child because some well-meaning but misguided pro-life people thought they were doing God's work also doesn't make me happy.

Abortion sucks...and it should be discouraged and prevented...but not outlawed. It's a sadly necessary thing.

 

[Grace Alone]

It would be wrong to kill me (or anybody) because you would be killing all the things I mentioned before that a developed person has vs. a zygote. Your killing of another person nullifies your agreement (as part of society) that we all have a default right to exist if we can manage to keep ourselves alive, and will put you into peril of losing your own life, also per our societal agreement. A zygote cannot keep itself alive separate from the mother. A born child can by means of adoption.

You say we "all" have a default right to exist....obviously you don't mean ALL. Obviously all these unborn babies have no rights in your eyes. A zygote can't keep itself alive, you say....well neither can an infant. Is it acceptable to leave an infant to die somewhere because it is up to them to try to "manage to keep [itself] alive?" Is that acceptable? What is the difference between a fetus and a newborn (besides the obvious developmental features and the fact that one is within the womb and one is outside it)? There are babies born up to three months premature who survive, yet they could have been aborted before they were outside the womb. that makes no sense to me.

So personhood is only a result of the things you mentioned before that a developed person has, is that right? When do we receive these things? According to your theory it seems it would be okay to kill an infant because it doesn't have the "things" to kill that you define is necessary for killing to be killing. So when we kill a human being, we're really not killing the person at all, but only the "things" that person experienced?

Do you believe that the fetus is a human being? Do you believe it is a person?

If you believed that the human being possessed a soul (a crazy assertion, I know), would you then believe that abortion was an immoral act?

 

[Wertbag]

Can I ask that same question in reverse? If you believed that humans did not have a soul, that we are just flesh and blood, then would you not be so worried by abortion?

 

[saved4life]

Can I ask that same question in reverse? If you believed that humans did not have a soul, that we are just flesh and blood, then would you not be so worried by abortion?

Funny thing is if humans do have a soul, then abortions are totally inconsequential. In fact, it would almost be preferable to be aborted since you'd just go right back to God. No loss. No suffering. The body would just be a disposable, temporary shell...as religion teaches anyway.

So, would it be immoral if there was such thing as a soul? No. It would be inconsequential to the overall spiritual well-being of the child.

Now, would it anger God? Maybe...but I don't believe he exists, and our laws and morality aren't dependant on his existence.

 

[saved4life]

Silly me - I acknowledge human purpose and sanctity of life... of course, I make no bones about it either. You can think it sentimental folly if you want, but I'll gladly play the part of the sap if being a sap feels so good. And you certainly can't argue against that from your humanist (?) position - I've found happinesss and that's all that matters isn't it? You on the other hand struggle with happiness to some degree, correct?

Actually, you don't acknowledge sanctity and purpose in life, you invent it...as others have done before you.

Finding happiness IS what it is about. Unfortunately, the Christian religion often finds happiness by denying other people their happiness, i.e. being against gay marriage, forcing women to have children because they were dumb enough to get pregnant when they didn't want to or were, much worse, raped. There's other examples, too.

Happiness is a choice. To some degree happiness is about forgetting (pushing out of mind) other people's horrible situations in the world. And to some degree, happiness is about being aware of other people's horrible situation in the world and being glad that it's not you. All humans by nature compare themselves to others and feel glad or sad by those comparisons.

People used to find happiness by thinking that life was fair, and that bad things only happened to bad people. Sickness and deformities were a curse. Those people were to be shunned because they have somehow incured the wrath of God.

The story of Job was a parable to change people's attitudes about those who are befallen illness and misfortune. It taught people that the sick and poor weren't being punished by God so they shouldn't treat them as pariah or deserving their lowly station.

 

[Rogue 9]

forcing women to have children because they were dumb enough to get pregnant when they didn't want to

And there's the crux of the matter. Having children is a direct consequence of having sex, and is, biologically speaking, the entire purpose of the deed. Attempting to separate sex from its natural consequence (procreation and childbearing) is folly. If you don't want to have kids, don't have sex. Its that simple. If you're not prepared to have children and risk having them anyway, you gamble. If you conceive, you've lost. The solution: Its not default on the bet. Its "Don't gamble."

 

[Vic C.]

And there's the crux of the matter. Having children is a direct consequence of having sex, and is, biologically speaking, the entire purpose of the deed. Attempting to separate sex from its natural consequence (procreation and childbearing) is folly. If you don't want to have kids, don't have sex. Its that simple. If you're not prepared to have children and risk having them anyway, you gamble. If you conceive, you've lost. The solution: Its not default on the bet. Its "Don't gamble."

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Sweet Clementine]

I'm pro-life. I'm pro-person. I'm pro-forgiveness too.

Sexual intercourse is probably the only sort of gambling where you don't want to walk away with something. Every other form of gambling one tries to "win" not "loose" against the odds.

 

[Steve]

For an example of my position: I had one of my clients in this morning---a baby-faced kid of 19. He announced his "girlfriend"(a bi-sexual) is pregnant by him. After my normal outburst, he said not to worry about it, cuz she's having an abortion at the end of the week.

I remained silent.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

That's sad, Steve.

BL

 

[Steve]

Yeah it is; a lot of these kids start their sexual careers at a very young age, and become grossly sexually irresponsible---having kids all over the place, then the girl drags them into Child Support Court. The guy has no job, probably has a record, and gets further and further behind(I have one guy who is $46,000+ in arrears). Then they lock him up for not paying child support and deny him a driver's license also. So, they cut off their noses to spite their face.
It is a vicious circle that never seems to stop.

And you teach abstinence, and they look at you like you're from another planet.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Of course they look at you that way... you're an ambassador from Heaven!



BL

 

[mcrees]

Of course they look at you that way... you're an ambassador from Heaven!



BL

Good Point!