Arguments over the Word

[von]

God always does bless me.

 

[thessalonian]

God always does bless me.

Oh, I'm sure he does. But I want you to have many more. It's okay for me to ask him to bless you isn't it?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Was mary a virgin all her life? Poor Joseph...she would have had to have withheld sex from him...which is against God isn't it?

 

[thessalonian]

Was mary a virgin all her life? Poor Joseph...she would have had to have withheld sex from him...which is against God isn't it?

Apparenlty you have run out of arguements and do not want to acknowledge a Catholic has a point. So it is on to the next thing. I think our sense of awe of God is lost these days. The Jews would not even touch the ark of the covenant, the God Bearer. I can well imaging the great awe that Joseph would have had, knowing that the sacred womb of Mary held the God man in it. The awe would most certainly not have ended toward that holy womb after the birth. That was simply the mind of a truly faithful Jew throughout the old testament. I don't think Mary had to withhold anything. It seems to me Joseph was quite in on God's gig as well.

Peace, out

Blessings

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Was mary a virgin all her life? Poor Joseph...she would have had to have withheld sex from him...which is against God isn't it?

Apparenlty you have run out of arguements and do not want to acknowledge a Catholic has a point. So it is on to the next thing. I think our sense of awe of God is lost these days. The Jews would not even touch the ark of the covenant, the God Bearer. I can well imaging the great awe that Joseph would have had, knowing that the sacred womb of Mary held the God man in it. The awe would most certainly not have ended toward that holy womb after the birth. That was simply the mind of a truly faithful Jew throughout the old testament. I don't think Mary had to withhold anything. It seems to me Joseph was quite in on God's gig as well.

Peace, out

Blessings

Well considering God sees sex as a union between a man and a women and how they become one flesh then the fact that Joseph didn't have sex with Mary poses a problem. Was Mary really his wife? They never consemated the relationship.

Even so...the bible does not describe her womb as Holy and it doesn't say they never had sex. But since 'sex' is a natural union between a husband and a wife that GOD created - one can assume that they would have had a normal relationship after that point. The fact that her womb carried Jesus shouldn't be an issue...if so then the manger would never have been used again..the donkey would have been stuffed and put on a pedistal and anything that Mary used in tending the baby Jesus would be Holy as well.

Needless to say this is an added doctrine. She was a virgin when she conceived that is all that the bible says. Whether she remained a virgin, the bible is silent....maybe it's silent because it really doesn't matter. If God saw it as important he would have made it explicitly known that she remained a virgin for the rest of her days. But chances are, her and Joseph would have probably modeled the relationship that a husband and wife should have and that God ordains - even if it was an example for everyone else. To say she remained a virgin is an assumption and an added gospel added by your church as an excuse to exalt her even more!

 

[thessalonian]

I have to tell you I can't imagine anyone doudting that the womb of Mary was holy. There are holy men, holy women, holy nation, holy water, holy objects, holy people, holy ground, holy garmets, holy places, and many other things that are holy in the Old Testament. The Ark of the covenant which was called "the God bearer" was so holy that the Jews would die if they touched it. Yet somehow it is almost blasphemous to call the womb of the woman that carried the God of the universe for nine months holy. Very sad.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Mary was in the New testiment. And anyway those other holy things are called holy by God - Mary's womb was not! If God didn't see fit to call her womb holy then why would we have any reason to think it was?

Adding to the bible - again!

 

[thessalonian]

Mary was in the New testiment. And anyway those other holy things are called holy by God - Mary's womb was not! If God didn't see fit to call her womb holy then why would we have any reason to think it was?

Adding to the bible - again!

The ability to use logic and reason on this board astounds me. God gave you it. Use it! That brings glory to him. So things could be holy in the New Testament and not in the old?

Not everything that is said to be holy in the Old Testament is listed specifically. It says holy objects and holy vestments for instance but does not have a list or every vestment or object that was holy. So the Jews had no listing of what was holy. Guess they had a problem according to you.

I have to tell you. Those Christians of the first 4 centuries who didn't have a bible in their back pocket or a pocket apostle must have really been messed up. Nothing to tell them to get up every day. They simply had no way of knowing the truth apparently according to you. Do you think Paul carried around a pack of mules a mile long to carry all those scrolls around to pass out to everyone? Copying them would have taken up all his time.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, but the bible is simple enough for a child to understand which is why Jesus said we have to enter the kingdom of heaven as little children. Children to not analyze, argue or think they know better what the truth is than the authors of the bible. They simply believe it. If the catholic church had never said Mary was a virgin all her life, would you spend your time caring about Christ's brothers? :o

In order to contradict the bible, you have to invent new scenarios that have absolutely nothing to do with the passage you're contradicting. That takes a lot of time and effort because it isn't the truth. Again, the truth is always simple because it doesn't contradict itself. So I don't buy your invented scenarios about Christ's brothers, Joseph or Mary. Satan always has a field day when people try to add words to the bible. This is as made up as the notion that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. And made-up gospels are easy to spot because they contradict the bible just like the notion that Mary was a virgin all her life does. I'm sorry for you that you cannot see that and try to re-write the bible. But it doesn't make the bible any less true. Sorry.

Does that mean you refuse to answer my simple question about the Bible? (The Bible being a book you believe even children can comprehend easily.)

Orthodox Christian also brings up another good quote: "This is my Body"

Are the people present at the Last Supper eating Jesus of the Bible's flesh and bone?

A couple of better but related quotes:

"unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his you shall not have life within you.".

"MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD. MY IS TRUE DRINK."

There in John 6 around v. 54 if you want to look them up Heidi.

Remember, childlike is the word.

Let the obvuscations begin.


Blessings

And do you know what a child would ask about that passage? "Does he mean we have to eat him?" The child is right on! What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

But do you know what s did with that passage? Some disciples left Jesus because they didn't think it was ever possible to eat someone. But a child would simply believe it and the child would be right. You just gave the perfect example of having the faith of a child. You should try it sometime and you will finally believe the bible instead of add or subtrct to it. ;-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Heidi, true to form, contradicts herself, and doesn't even realize it.

First argument: A child would accept the statement as given, and must have an adult explain what it really means:
* I have added the characters of the story, so as to illustrate whose voice is speaking*

Narrator:And do you know what a child would ask about that passage?
Child:"Does he mean we have to eat him?"
Narrator:The child is right on!
Adult Heidi answers:What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Later, she says this:

Some disciples left Jesus because they didn't think it was ever possible to eat someone. But a child would simply believe it and the child would be right.

Which is exactly what we are saying. His Body and Blood, we eat it, as He said, without this explanation

What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't sound like anything a child would say to me. Nope, I have 6 of 'em, all of smart as whips, but not one of them would have offered such an explanation until the world and its philosophies ruined them.
My children would say
"I don't understand this, but Dad says its the Body and Blood, so it is"
This is our response to the Savior.
Yet Heidi says to us

You just gave the perfect example of having the faith of a child. You should try it sometime and you will finally believe the bible instead of add or subtrct to it.

Only an adult could stand before a truth so plain and miss it.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, true to form, contradicts herself, and doesn't even realize it.

First argument: A child would accept the statement as given, and must have an explain what it really means:
* I have added the characters of the story, so as to illustrate whose voice is speaking*

Narrator:And do you know what a child would ask about that passage?
Child:"Does he mean we have to eat him?"
Narrator:The child is right on!
Adult Heidi answers:What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Later, she says this:

Some disciples left Jesus because they didn't think it was ever possible to eat someone. But a child would simply believe it and the child would be right.

Which is exactly what we are saying. His Body and , we eat it, as He said, without this explanation
[quote:a0a66]What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't sound like anything a child would say to me. Nope, I have 6 of 'em, all of smart as whips, but not one of them would have offered such an explanation until the world and its philosophies ruined them.
My children would say
"I don't understand this, but Dad says its the Body and , so it is"
This is our response to the Savior.
Yet Heidi says to us

You just gave the perfect example of having the faith of a child. You should try it sometime and you will finally believe the bible instead of add or subtrct to it.

Only an could stand before a truth so plain and miss it.[/quote:a0a66]

Sorry, but the child simply believes that if Jesus said we have to eat him, then we have to eat him. But again the s don't believe him. So they abondoned Jesus and still many today do not understand that Jesus has to be inside of us for us to enyer heaven. And it if you had the faith of a child, you would not disbelieve the bible either, but believe that Jesus had brothers and that Christ was the only sinless person whoe ever lived. But you don't have the faith of a child and therefore, do not believe the bible. You should listen to Christ. He knows what he's talking about when he said we should have have the faith of a child. ;-)

 

[thessalonian]

And do you know what a child would ask about that passage? "Does he mean we have to eat him?" The child is right on! What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit is the flesh of Christ? How does one eat this flesh of Christ? You see it does say "unless you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood you shall not have life within you". How have you fullfilled this?

 

[Heidi]

Soory, my computer keeps turning off on me in the middle of sentences so I can't guarantee the grammatic accuracy and lack of typos in my post. Forgive me?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Heidi, true to form, contradicts herself, and doesn't even realize it.

First argument: A child would accept the statement as given, and must have an explain what it really means:
* I have added the characters of the story, so as to illustrate whose voice is speaking*

Narrator:And do you know what a child would ask about that passage?
Child:"Does he mean we have to eat him?"
Narrator:The child is right on!
Adult Heidi answers:What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Later, she says this:

Some disciples left Jesus because they didn't think it was ever possible to eat someone. But a child would simply believe it and the child would be right.

Which is exactly what we are saying. His Body and , we eat it, as He said, without this explanation
[quote:6ac58]What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't sound like anything a child would say to me. Nope, I have 6 of 'em, all of smart as whips, but not one of them would have offered such an explanation until the world and its philosophies ruined them.
My children would say
"I don't understand this, but Dad says its the Body and , so it is"
This is our response to the Savior.
Yet Heidi says to us
[quote:6ac58]You just gave the perfect example of having the faith of a child. You should try it sometime and you will finally believe the bible instead of add or subtrct to it.

Only an adult could stand before a truth so plain and miss it.[/quote:6ac58]

Sorry, but the child simply believes that if Jesus said we have to eat him, then we have to eat him. [/quote:6ac58]
We've already said as much, and we believe Him- without those extra adult words that you add. Should I remind you of your adult restatement of Christ's words?

What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

We hear "This is my Body" and say "this is Your Body"
You hear "This is my Body" and say

What Jesus is saying there is what gives us life is the personhood of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Who then has the childlike faith?
That would be us.
Who then believes the words of Christ without adding to or deleting?
That would be us, also.

But again the s don't believe him. So they abondoned Jesus and still many today do not understand that Jesus has to be inside of us for us to enyer heaven. And it if you had the faith of a child, you would not disbelieve the bible either, but believe that Jesus had brothers

I do believe Jesus had brothers. I see that my neighbor is my brother also, and that I have brothers in Christ. I also believe that Mary was virgin. I don't see anywhere in scripture where we see a child designated as Mary's, only Jesus. So Jesus has brothers, all of us who obey Him, Paul had brothers, in the Church.

Beyond that, the argument becomes and adult argument. We're speaking simple faith here, and I believe what I read.

and that Christ was the only sinless person whoe ever lived. But you don't have the faith of a child and therefore, do not believe the bible. You should listen to Christ. He knows what he's talking about when he said we should have have the faith of a child. ;-)

I believe Jesus was the only sinless one. I also have the faith of a child, as I have demonstrated. I believe Him when He says that "this is my Body, this is my blood." Yep, without hesitation.
Some scoff and say that is impossible.

A skeptic challenged Billy Graham: "Do you really believe that a whale swallowed Jonah?"
Billy Graham smiled and replied "I'd believe it if the bible said Jonah swallowed the whale."
Don't care much for his specific theology, but I love his childlike answers to adult minds.

 

[thessalonian]

Soory, my computer keeps turning off on me in the middle of sentences so I can't guarantee the grammatic accuracy and lack of typos in my post. Forgive me?

Your computer keeps turning off? I have to tell you that I doudt that is the reason your posts are full of typos because when you turned your computer on, it would not bring your post back up. They would not get posted either. Or perhaps you are talking about your other computer, not the one you are typing on? The typos don't bother me however.

 

[Barry Zuckerkorn]

Sorry, but the child simply believes that if Jesus said we have to eat him, then we have to eat him. But again the s don't believe him. So they abondoned Jesus and still many today do not understand that Jesus has to be inside of us for us to enyer heaven. And it if you had the faith of a child, you would not disbelieve the bible either, but believe that Jesus had brothers and that Christ was the only sinless person whoe ever lived. But you don't have the faith of a child and therefore, do not believe the bible. You should listen to Christ. He knows what he's talking about when he said we should have have the faith of a child. ;-)

Let's avoid talking about people who abandoned Jesus of the Bible, or people who lack the faith to believe in the Bible. (So you're admitting that it takes faith to believe the Bible, and not a child's ignorant understanding, historical fact, scientific theory nor a specific interpretation, interesting.)

Let's discuss children. When they read the Bible, do they say that they must eat Jesus of the Bible's literal flesh? Or do they understand that the bread represents his flesh, and that they must eat the bread?

 

[von]

It takes the faith of a child.

 

[thessalonian]

It takes the faith of a child.

It's so nice that we have scripture experts like you and heidi and Merry to lead us along. We're not allowed to read scripture in the Catholic Church and they never preach to us about having the faith of a child in the Catholic Church. Every sunday it's Matt 16:18 and John 6, Matt 16:18 and John 6, Matt 16:18 and John 6. :o Sarcasm out.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Oh goodie a Eucharist debate.

Eucharist

From Saint Ignatius to the Ephesians. He is a 1st century Christian Martyr Student of John the Belloved speaking on the Eucharist.

Stand fast, brethren, in the faith of Jesus Christ, and in His love, in His passion, and in His resurrection. Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and "the first-born of every creature," but of the seed of David according to the flesh, being under the guidance of the Comforter, in obedience to the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread (the Eucharist or communion), WHICH IS THE MEDICINE OF IMMORTALITY, and the antidote which prevents us from dying, but a cleansing remedy driving away evil, [which causes] that we should live in God through Jesus Christ.

In John 6:53-54 Jesus says “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up in the last day.

THE MEDICINE OF IMMORTALITY Saint Ignatius speaks of in his homily to the Ephesians is the Liturgical Eucharist of the Church.

Saint Ignatius to the Philadelphians

Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever ye do, ye may do it according to [the will of] God.

And

St. Irenaeus of Lyons 2nd Century Christian Martyr on the Eucharist

"Our Faith is in accord with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist confirms our Faith."

Justin Martyr

“Those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a [the Eucharist = Thanksgiving], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone.


In the OT God is always seen making covenant with man. In these covenants God always uses a physical, material and tangible connection with man. With Abraham in Genesis 14:18 God’s Priest uses Bread and Wine. Exodus 16:14 is the Manna from Heaven and Christ is considered the Bread of Life. There was bread in the temple, the shewbread.

Isaiah 6:5-6 states Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Here we see the eternal liturgy of the Kingdom of God. The literal fire of God is being placed on the lips of those receiving the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Christ in you, your hope of Glory. So we see God has always had an organic connection with man, be it circumcision, bread and wine, oil and water.

In John 6 Jesus states I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. And This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

This is “Christ in you your hope of Glory, Colossian 1:27.

Jesus plainly states one must eat of His body and drink of His blood for eternal life.

This “solemn memorial†is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Here plainly some of his disciples, not named, thought he was saying they had to become cannibals. These "followers of Christ" could not hear such a thing as cannibalism and left Him to follow Him no more. I have heard protestants call orthodox Christians cannibals. Plainly cannibalism was tabbo to the Jews thus they walked away much like the protestants of today.

Jesus plainly said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jesus told people they would need to become cannibals and many walked away except to the Apostles that stayed to find out what this man meant by this strange saying. Words mean something and if Jesus said "indeed" which means "in truth" then His flesh is truely meat and His blood is truely drink.

In Luke 22 and Matthew 26 Jesus shows them the mystery. God places Himself, His most pure body and blessed blood in Bread and Wine. Something God cannot do, it seems to me, the heterodox are claiming. God can make a donkey talk, a rock flow water, a dove carry His Spirit but cannot place His nature in bread and wine. A pitiful limited god of the heterodox faith.

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Luke 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Luke 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how HE WAS KNOWN of them in breaking of bread.

Jesus Christ is known in the breaking of bread or the Eucharist/Communion. The eye of men are opened to Jesus Christ and the Scriptures in the breaking of bread found in His Holy Orthodox Church.

Acts 2:42, And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Stedfastness does not include a total rejection of the purpose for THE MEDICINE OF IMMORTALITY.

Acts 2:46, And they, continuing daily with ONE ACCORD IN THE TEMPLE, and BREAKING BREAD from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Daily they continued in the temple and in the breaking of bread. This was a daily way of life in the early Church. To this day the Orthodox Church has many Liturgical services other than just Sunday morning. On Orthodox Mount Athos in Greece they have a daily Communion service.

1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Plainly the Eucharist identifies the One Body or the Church. This also shows Paul’s belief in the true presents of Christ in the Eucharist.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

A “rememberance†can make you sick and even kill you? A symbol can kill you? Really? I think the Eucharist is much more important that the heterodox “Christian†lead us to believe.

The Eucharist in my opinion is only one glaring example where the heterodox Churches have lied to people and stolen the medicine for the immortality of their souls. A symbol indeed!

Jesus teaches cannibalism is required for eternal life, John 6:48-69 Jesus explains how one eats His Body and Drinks His Blood for eternal life, Matthew 26:26-29. Paul says a "symbol" can kill you! 1 Corinthians 11:29-30.

Myth busted off the myth thread!

Orthodoxy

BTW HAPPY EXALTATION OF THE CROSS all you Orthodox Christians! Christ is in our midst!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Mary was in the New testiment. And anyway those other holy things are called holy by God - Mary's womb was not! If God didn't see fit to call her womb holy then why would we have any reason to think it was?

Adding to the bible - again!

The ability to use logic and reason on this board astounds me. God gave you it. Use it! That brings glory to him. So things could be holy in the New Testament and not in the old?

Not everything that is said to be holy in the Old Testament is listed specifically. It says holy objects and holy vestments for instance but does not have a list or every vestment or object that was holy. So the Jews had no listing of what was holy. Guess they had a problem according to you.

I have to tell you. Those Christians of the first 4 centuries who didn't have a bible in their back pocket or a pocket apostle must have really been messed up. Nothing to tell them to get up every day. They simply had no way of knowing the truth apparently according to you. Do you think Paul carried around a pack of mules a mile long to carry all those scrolls around to pass out to everyone? Copying them would have taken up all his time.

God bless

God did not call mary's whom holy - what part of that is astounding? That he didn't call it holy or that I don't recognise it as holy because he doesn't or that maybe - just maybe Mary and Joseph would have had a normal relationship together like any of God's children?

Really Thess! Come one!