As it Was In The Days Of Noah...

[Sinthesis]

Daniel 2: 43
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay./(KJV)

is the iron mixed with clay literal? This is a dream / interpretation of a dream.... what was the theme of Danial's interpretation?

He is talking about governments not sex

The clay of Judea, distinct religiously and culturally from the iron of Rome, within the pagan Roman Empire.

 

[Edward]

So in Daniel 2:43 the term "seed" is to be equated with a Government? I'm sorry my brothers and sisters, but I can not see the connection there. Looking up "seed" from 2:43 in Strongs (E-sword) it takes us to H2234 Which reads like this:

H2234
זרע
zera‛
zer-ah'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H2233; posterity: - seed./(e-sword)

Posterity is the children. Taking it further we look up H2233 from the reference and see:

H2233
זרע
zera‛
zeh'-rah
From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time./(e-sword)

I am trying to understand this, but I see nothing in there that would suggest a Government. I do understand that the dream was speaking about the nations and agree with the assessment of Rome that I remember from earlier studies. But this curve ball is in there speaking of seed of man, and I do think that we should try to get to the bottom of it.

Since when did angels have reproductive organs..

tob

This is a good question. Looking at the scripture which speaks of this, it takes us to:

Matthew 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven./(KJV)

At first reading, one could easily conclude that Angels do not have reproductive organs, but a closer reading reveals that it really does not say that, it says they do not marry, so that is inconclusive, and would have to be considered speculation. Does anyone know of such a scripture which speaks more clearly about this question, and actually says that Angels have no reproductive organs?

...and no one has really addressed the term "seed" in Daniel 2:43. What it is talking about there? It doesn't say "nations" or "government", neither does Strongs, it throws the term "seed" into the mix, so what is it talking about?

 

[JLB]

Now that is a excellent question. I have asked it before. From what I know, angels don't!!!!!! In heaven there is no marriage.

Not in heaven, Brother.

On earth. Hence the phrase "left their proper domain", as well as "their own abode".

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

These violated their liberty as sons of God, and becames as men.

as it is written -

Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Hebrews 13:2

Meaning angels can appear as mortal men.

It is clear from Peter that it was angels who sinned in the days of Noah.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4

The next thing I suppose many will say is, Angels can not eat food.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So in Daniel 2:43 the term "seed" is to be equated with a Government? I'm sorry my brothers and sisters, but I can not see the connection there. Looking up "seed" from 2:43 in Strongs (E-sword) it takes us to H2234 Which reads like this:

H2234
זרע
zera‛
zer-ah'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H2233; posterity: - seed./(e-sword)

Posterity is the children. Taking it further we look up H2233 from the reference and see:

H2233
זרע
zera‛
zeh'-rah
From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time./(e-sword)

I am trying to understand this, but I see nothing in there that would suggest a Government. I do understand that the dream was speaking about the nations and agree with the assessment of Rome that I remember from earlier studies. But this curve ball is in there speaking of seed of man, and I do think that we should try to get to the bottom of it.



This is a good question. Looking at the scripture which speaks of this, it takes us to:

Matthew 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven./(KJV)

At first reading, one could easily conclude that Angels do not have reproductive organs, but a closer reading reveals that it really does not say that, it says they do not marry, so that is inconclusive, and would have to be considered speculation. Does anyone know of such a scripture which speaks more clearly about this question, and actually says that Angels have no reproductive organs?

...and no one has really addressed the term "seed" in Daniel 2:43. What it is talking about there? It doesn't say "nations" or "government", neither does Strongs, it throws the term "seed" into the mix, so what is it talking about?

Seed is not the government.
"They" is the government.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not in heaven, Brother.

On earth. Hence the phrase "left their proper domain", as well as "their own abode".

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

These violated their liberty as sons of God, and becames as men.

as it is written -

Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Hebrews 13:2

Meaning angels can appear as mortal men.

It is clear from Peter that it was angels who sinned in the days of Noah.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4

The next thing I suppose many will say is, Angels can not eat food.


JLB

Angels cannot eat food.

 

[JLB]

Angels cannot eat food.

1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes." 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. Genesis 18:1-8

 

[Edward]

Agreed. Angels can eat. Perhaps why we are supposed to be careful to entertain strangers for some have entertained Angels unawares. It is in scripture, there in Genesis 18 that JLB posted and another place is in:

Psalm 78:25
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full./(KJV)

I know it calls them men in the Genesis passage, but they are clearly Angels in the guise of men, come to tell Abraham & Sarah that they will have another child.

 

[Edward]

You know, I wonder. It talks about the Marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven and so forth, so we will eat in heaven also, I have wondered before, will there be plumbing in heaven, or perhaps our new spiritual bodies will process food with 100% efficiency, with no waste product?

 

[Edward]

Seed is not the government.
"They" is the government.

Would that be grammatically correct the way it is written?

The Government will mingle themselves with the seed of men...
Uhh...I don't get it brother. Can you please expound on that one for me?

 

[King James]

The Book of Job in the "fixed" bible

Then the sons of seth went to heaven to give god a visit and satan came with them.

 

[turnorburn]

Wonder no longer Edward and the best part "God will dwell with us and be with us"..:yes

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

tob

KJV

 

[Edward]

Wonder no longer Edward and the best part "God will dwell with us and be with us"..:yes

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

tob

KJV

Yeah brother! THAT'S what I'm talking about! This will be so good. Scripture say that no one has seen, and the mind of man can not comprehend the goodness that God has in store for us...(!!)

I can comprehend some pretty good things, so that's very good to think about!

Praise the Lord!

 

[JLB]

The Book of Job in the "fixed" bible

Then the sons of seth went to heaven to give god a visit and satan came with them.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. Job 2:1

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said , 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare , if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:1-7


The term sons of God is a reference to angels.

This is the King James version.

Please do not use unauthorized versions such a the New World Translation that Jehovah's Witnesses use.


JLB

 

[Edward]

To me, it seems clear that the "sons of God" were Angelic beings and not man. Besides, if the line of Seth was so righteous, how come they weren't saved from the flood?

Another thing. In John 1, we see:

John 1: 12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:/(KJV)

It seems to say that believers are given the power to become sons of God. The power to become, not do immediately become or something like that. So this would be something that happens in the future of the believer. Why in the future and not now when Christ is received? When does this happen? Is this what happens when "in the twinkling of eye we will be changed", and we will be transformed into our new heavenly bodies? A spiritual body, angelic in nature?...perhaps.

So far, as far out as it may seem, "they will mingle themselves with the seed of men" is seeming to refer to something pretty out of this world that will be mingling. I'm hearing all sorts of conjectures about men and governments and so forth, but, nothing beyond loose conjecture and no backing scriptures or anything...which is understandable, because something of this nature, is not easy to swallow, so the mind has a tendency to reject it and grasp anything else. Those conjectures do not make sense. No offense to anyone, but it just doesn't seem to stand up to critical thinking. Not that my assertion has been proven in the least because it has not, but come on guys, we're not doing much good here, lol.

 

[chessman]

So far, as far out as it may seem, "they will mingle themselves with the seed of men" is seeming to refer to something pretty out of this world that will be mingling. I'm hearing all sorts of conjectures about men and governments and so forth, but, nothing beyond loose conjecture and no backing scriptures or anything...which is understandable, because something of this nature, is not easy to swallow, so the mind has a tendency to reject it and grasp anything else. Those conjectures do not make sense.

Just so I'm clear on what you are saying and the reasoning process for it. It's okay to conjecture on what "mingling" means (i.e. sex) but not okay to conjecture that clay and iron represent Governments in a dream. And that it's okay to assume 1/2 breed offspring is produced from "unnatural mingling" then.

Is that it?

 

[Edward]

Just so I'm clear on what you are saying and the reasoning process for it. It's okay to conjecture on what "mingling" means (i.e. sex) but not okay to conjecture that clay and iron represent Governments in a dream. And that it's okay to assume 1/2 breed offspring is produced from "unnatural mingling" then.

Is that it?

No, not at all. I'm saying that the conjecture of they being a government makes even less sense than they being something off-worldly. I made the point that my assertion is in no way proven at all.

Going through Strongs of the passage, none of the definitions even hint at a govermental entity. It speaks of posterity and children. We do not know who "they" are, but from the way that the sentance is written, it seems to me, that to be grammatically correct, that "they" would have to be something other than man, to mingle with the seed of man.

I didn't write it, I'm trying to understand it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

To me, it seems clear that the "sons of God" were Angelic beings and not man. Besides, if the line of Seth was so righteous, how come they weren't saved from the flood?

Another thing. In John 1, we see:

John 1: 12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:/(KJV)

It seems to say that believers are given the power to become sons of God. The power to become, not do immediately become or something like that. So this would be something that happens in the future of the believer. Why in the future and not now when Christ is received? When does this happen? Is this what happens when "in the twinkling of eye we will be changed", and we will be transformed into our new heavenly bodies? A spiritual body, angelic in nature?...perhaps.

So far, as far out as it may seem, "they will mingle themselves with the seed of men" is seeming to refer to something pretty out of this world that will be mingling. I'm hearing all sorts of conjectures about men and governments and so forth, but, nothing beyond loose conjecture and no backing scriptures or anything...which is understandable, because something of this nature, is not easy to swallow, so the mind has a tendency to reject it and grasp anything else. Those conjectures do not make sense. No offense to anyone, but it just doesn't seem to stand up to critical thinking. Not that my assertion has been proven in the least because it has not, but come on guys, we're not doing much good here, lol.

Noah is in the line of Seth.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Would that be grammatically correct the way it is written?

The Government will mingle themselves with the seed of men...
Uhh...I don't get it brother. Can you please expound on that one for me?

My original post on this stated that "they" was Rome, representing the people.
My mistake calling it the government.

 

[Edward]

Noah is in the line of Seth.

Really. I didn't realize that. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for that brother.

We're kind of jumping around here though. I am really interested in getting a good handle on Daniel 2:43. That is suggesting something very very mysterious and supernatural based on the way it was written.

 

[Edward]

My original post on this stated that "they" was Rome, representing the people.
My mistake calling it the government.

So, Rome will mingle themselves with the seed of men? Huh. Let me chew on that for a bit...

If we substitute the term "the people" in Daniel 2:43, the sentence does not make sense then. It would be grammatically incorrect. Would you agree? "The people will mingle themselves with the seed of men"...It doesn't click for me brother.