At the Last Trump, we shall be changed ! -

[Alabaster]

That is the way the bible tells it !!!

Praise God, you are right on the money!

 

[Lehigh3]

Praise God, you are right on the money!

Thank you. But they tell me wisdom is more precious than gold & silver!

We go to Him. The Bible says Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Is Christ a disembodied spirit in heaven, waiting, as you futurist would say for when He returns to get His spiritual body in heaven? No. There is no resurrection of OUR flesh literally.
That is an idiotic doctrine.

 

[warhorse]

Thank you. But they tell me wisdom is more precious than gold & silver!

We go to Him. The Bible says Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Is Christ a disembodied spirit in heaven, waiting, as you futurist would say for when He returns to get His spiritual body in heaven? No. There is no resurrection of OUR flesh literally.
That is an idiotic doctrine.

Rom 8 v 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal BODIES by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8v19 For the earnest expectation of the CREATURE waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the CREATURE was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the CREATURE itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[theLords]

That is an idiotic doctrine.

Christians. And we wonder why so many are leaving the Church.

No, you're wrong.

-No, you're wrong.

No, you're wrong.

-No, you're wrong.

:bigfrown

 

[Alabaster]

Thank you. But they tell me wisdom is more precious than gold & silver!

We go to Him. The Bible says Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Is Christ a disembodied spirit in heaven, waiting, as you futurist would say for when He returns to get His spiritual body in heaven? No. There is no resurrection of OUR flesh literally.
That is an idiotic doctrine.

What?

Jesus rose bodily. There are three translated human bodies in heaven right now: Jesus, Enoch and Elijah.

Why would anyone who knew the word at all believe Jesus was in heaven in spirit? We all know He was raised and there were witnesses to His ascension.

Once again, I must ask you to stop making presumptions.

You will have to completely disregard Scripture---even the passage that warhorse has offered to you---to believe that there is no resurrection of the living and the dead.

 

[Hitch]

Rom 8 v 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal BODIES by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8v19 For the earnest expectation of the CREATURE waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the CREATURE was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the CREATURE itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Yup.

 

[Hitch]

I never said he was... he frequently used parables and metaphores in his speaches. My contention with you is that you dump detailed scripture and latch on to the metaphore. In one speach Jesus uses the term last day metaphoricly six times and that version of day is not used again in scripture. Wheras the term Day of the lord is used over thirty times in the entire bible, presents great detail of the events, and it is precise as to its meaning, yet you take it for metaphore. You are 180 degrees out.

LOL .

You're not even close on this one Horse.

 

[Hitch]

What is the "Day of the Lord"? A Preterist Perspective

The NT several times refers to the "day" of Christ in the context of an impending judgment. In order to understand how this term is used in the NT, it is necessary to look at how an OT precursor of the phrase is used.
The phrase "the day of the Lord" (TDOL) occurs 26 times in the OT, always in the prophetic literature. Six of these occurrences refer to a "day of the Lord's..." X, but not all of these refer to a future event. We begin, in OT order, with Isaiah:

Is. 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low...​

The first example of TDOL occurs in the context of an oracle which predicts in the "last" or future days a time when "all nations" will flow to the house of the Lord (2:2) and there will be an end of all war (2:4) and proud men are humbled (2:11-17) or try to hide from the judgment of God (2:19ff). This use clearly indicates a picture of final judgment.

Is. 13:6-9 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.​

This time, though, TDOL is a judgment directed exclusively against Babylon. Babylon is directly addressed (13:1, 19) and the Medes are said to be the instrument of Babylon's destruction (13:17). For reference, take note as well of how this singular judgment is described:

Is. 13:10-13 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.​

It is easy to see a parallel to Jesus' pronouncements upon Jerusalem. More such language is found in Isaiah's last reference:

Is. 34:4, 8-10 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree...For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.​

Is. 34 is an oracle of judgment against Edom. Note here that the "day" of the Lord is equated with the "year of recompense," thus indicating that "the day of the Lord" isn't associated with a single 24-hour period. (Stuart notes that the phrase likely originated in the ANE conception of an ideal warrior who could vanquish foes in a day; Hosea-Jonah commentary, 231.)

Jer. 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.​

The oracle this time is a warning to Egypt (46:2) and to the Pharaoh of Jeremiah's day. Jeremiah also used this phrase in Lamentations:

Lam. 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.​

In this case, TDOL is used to refer to a past event of judgment, this time upon Jerusalem.
Next up: Ezekiel --

Ezek. 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.​

This warning is made to Israel's prophets (13:1) and is an admonition against them for being false prophets (13:6-7). These prophets have predicted peace for Jerusalem (13:16). The reference to TDOL is most likely here to the impending Babylonian attack on Jerusalem.

Ezek 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.​

The oracle this time is against Egypt, and Babylon will be the mechanism of judgment (30:10).
The next five references are from the book of Joel.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.​

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;​

Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?​

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.​

Because of the difficulty in knowing when Joel was written, it is not possible to say in all cases who the "enemy" is. It is enough to say that the first three references are to an impending judgment against the Jews.
The next three references to TDOL are from Amos, who was probably the first of the prophets chronologically to use the phrase.

Amos 5:18-20 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?​

Amos 5-6 is a prophetic oracle against the northern kingdom of Israel.
Little Obadiah makes the next use of the phrase:

Obad. 15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.​

Obadiah's oracle is upon Edom, and it is clear that Obadiah expects TDOL to affect Edom.
Now Zephaniah takes his turn:

Zeph. 1:8 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. ​

Zeph. 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.​

 

[Hitch]

Zeph. 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.​

Zeph. 1:18-2:3 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.​

These oracles are against Jerusalem and Judah (1:14). Again it is worth noting the symbolism used:

Zeph. 1:15-17 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.​

Now Zechariah has some use for the phrase:

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.​

For the first time since Isaiah, TDOL may here be used as a phrase reflecting final judgment. The Lord is king over all the earth (14:9) and the nations all come to observe the Feast of Tabernacles (14:16). Other preterists, though, see this as a reference to 70 AD and believe we are now in a place where the Lord is king over the earth and we observe the feast in the "heavenly Jerusalem". I tend to agree with the latter.
Finally, Malachi uses the phrase:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD...​

Of course Christian exegetes see this as a prophecy of John the Baptist. Notwithstanding that interpretation, this oracle to the returned exiles speaks of a day that "cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (4:1-3)
To what does this TDOL refer? TDOL here refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Our conclusion: "The day of the Lord" is a general phrase of judgment that can describe the final eschatological judgment of the world, but more often describes any forthcoming day of judgment. What "day" is in mind is determined by context, not merely by the phrase itself.



Sorry for the length,,but it was a long day..
-JPH

 

[sdktlk]

At the Last Trump, we shall be changed ! cont



I will be giving proof from scripture as to why the Rapture and the Second Coming are at the same time at the end of the Tribulation and at the end of time for this world..The Last Trump

As pointed out in 1 cor 15 vs52 the rapture occurs at the Last Trump !

Now lets look at the last of a series of Trumpets beginning in rev 8 to rev 11 :

Rev 11:


15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Notice: The time of God's wrath has come

The time the dead are Judged as per Jn 5:

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan 12:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


The Time The servants of God, which are believers, from both testaments, OT Saints and NT Saints shall be rewarded ! Cp 1 cor 15:58

The wicked are punished, the destroyers are destroyed, the sudden destruction, the everlasting destruction the wicked must meet.

For this is a day of wrath, that the elect were not appointed to 1 thess 5:9 ; rom 5:9

The Great Tribulation was not the Wrath of God, it was Just Tribulation, but the wrath of God has to do with the lake of fire and eternal punishment, so 1 thess 5 9 is teaching that Believers in Christ will not go to hell in the day of Judgment, not that they will not go through tribulation in the world, in fact its promised to the Church that its through much tribulation they will enter the Kingdom..acts 14:22

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rev 7:

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The quote from Daniel 12:2 "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" requires further study, as the Hebrew word yashen does not mean ones that are dead, it simply means sleep.

Its equivalent would be found in Ephesians 5:14, "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

Both these verses have to do with being asleep to the things of God, and not literally dead and in the ground.

 

[Alabaster]

The quote from Daniel 12:2 "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" requires further study, as the Hebrew word yashen does not mean ones that are dead, it simply means sleep.

Its equivalent would be found in Ephesians 5:14, "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

Both these verses have to do with being asleep to the things of God, and not literally dead and in the ground.

It was custom for ancient man to refer to the dead as sleeping. That is why you see it written as such. It is used as a literal meaning for the state of death, and not to be always construed as to do with being spiritually dead.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sdk:

The quote from Daniel 12:2 "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" requires further study, as the Hebrew word yashen does not mean ones that are dead, it simply means sleep.

You have not said anything new lol..Physical death in a lot of places in the scripture is called sleep.

 

[sdktlk]

It was custom for ancient man to refer to the dead as sleeping. That is why you see it written as such. It is used as a literal meaning for the state of death, and not to be always construed as to do with being spiritually dead.

All I said was there needs to be a word study take place. Having done so myself I find nowhere in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word yashen used in reference to actual physical death.

 

[Alabaster]

All I said was there needs to be a word study take place. Having done so myself I find nowhere in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word yashen used in reference to actual physical death.

Oh! I am sorry. I misunderstood you. So, is this the word you normally came across in your study---shakab?

H7901
שׁכב
shâkab
shaw-kab'
A primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose): - X at all, cast down, ([over-]) lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still, with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.


I do see yashen used to mean physical death in Psalm 13:3, for instance....

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God;
Enlighten my eyes,
Lest I sleep the sleep of death;



H3462
ישׁן
yâshên
yaw-shane'
A primitive root; properly to be slack or languid, that is, (by implication) sleep (figuratively to die); also to grow old, stale or inveterate: - old (store), remain long, (make to) sleep.

 

[sdktlk]

Exactly where does it say 'final' ? No point in study when conjecture yields the desired results.

Like you said you believe it or you dont ,regardless of the text, that is conjecture, based on circular reasoning. Remember it is the 'sign' of the Son of Man in heaven. Lots of folks gloss over that.

Isnt it possible that what Jesus says here is more closely related to his earlier predictions, (M 21-23) than with events thousands of years future?

Have we ever considered that the "last trump" is the eighth trump? "Seven" is the number for God's temporal perfection, and we are even now in the seventh day.

God is still "resting" until He goes to work making "a new heavens and a new earth" (2Pet 3:13) which will be the day after the seventh day is ended or the eighth day. Resurrection is 7 + 1.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sdk :

All I said was there needs to be a word study take place. Having done so myself I find nowhere in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word yashen used in reference to actual physical death.

Job 3:13

13For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

The Amp :

13For then would I have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then would I have been at rest [in death]

 

[sdktlk]

Oh! I am sorry. I misunderstood you. So, is this the word you normally came across in your study---shakab?

H7901
שׁכב
shâkab
shaw-kab'
A primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose): - X at all, cast down, ([over-]) lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still, with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.


I do see yashen used to mean physical death in Psalm 13:3, for instance....

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God;
Enlighten my eyes,
Lest I sleep the sleep of death;



H3462
ישׁן
yâshên
yaw-shane'
A primitive root; properly to be slack or languid, that is, (by implication) sleep (figuratively to die); also to grow old, stale or inveterate: - old (store), remain long, (make to) sleep.

The actual Hebrew word that is used is:
H3463
ישׁן
yâshên
yaw-shane'
From H3462; sleepy: - asleep, (one out of) sleep (-eth, -ing), slept

Which is from H3462, but H3463 has no reference to physical death in its definition.

The Word of God is very exact. Example: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16) The Apostle Paul would most assuredly be laughed to scorn today for such "splitting of hairs."

We can all agree I'm sure that it is "...required in stewards that a man be found faithful..." (Ref: 1Cor 4:2)

 

[Hitch]

Have we ever considered that the "last trump" is the eighth trump? "Seven" is the number for God's temporal perfection, and we are even now in the seventh day.

God is still "resting" until He goes to work making "a new heavens and a new earth" (2Pet 3:13) which will be the day after the seventh day is ended or the eighth day. Resurrection is 7 + 1.

Resting?


Support this 'God is still "resting" until from the New Testament.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sdk:

Have we ever considered that the "last trump" is the eighth trump?

Sounds like something from your own imagination, can you provide scripture for a eigth Trump ?

 

[sdktlk]

Resting?


Support this 'God is still "resting" until from the New Testament.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

By this whole passage we see that God is still at rest and it remains that some must enter therein. "To day" by the Scripture is still the seventh day.