Atonement

[JM]

What did Jesus do, exactly? When He shed His blood, did He die to save a people of make people saveable? What support from Scripture do you use to define your view of the atonement?

 

[kwag_myers]

What did Jesus do, exactly? When He shed His blood, did He die to save a people of make people saveable? What support from Scripture do you use to define your view of the atonement?

Interesting word, atonement. In the Old Testiment it means to cover over. In the New Testiment it means to pay off a dept. And it's only used once in the KJV New Testiment - Romans 5:11.

To me, atonement is Jesus' sacrifice has paid the "wages of sin" on my behalf. But instead of me owing Him, He also gives me all the promises that God makes to His people 2 Corinthians 1:20.

Did Jesus make people saveable? Yes - Romans 3:22-25.

 

[James1979]

What did Jesus do, exactly? When He shed His blood, did He die to save a people of make people saveable? What support from Scripture do you use to define your view of the atonement?

Jesus came to save his people from his sins, the ones that the Father has given him.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him(Jesus) power over all flesh, that he(Father) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him(Jesus).

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Did the Father give Jesus everyone single being that has ever lived and never be cast out?

Nope, hell will be very populated, and if Jesus paid the debt off for all mankind's sin, everyone should be blameless, but we know that will not be the case.

Jesus simply died for the elect, the few chosen, the remnant, its sprinkled all over God's word that God will only save a few and the rest will not be saved because God has no intention of saving them.

Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

God does as he wishes and who does God have to answer to those he deceived, those he harden their heart.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, [and] that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Jesus simply died for the elect, the few chosen, the remnant, its sprinkled all over God's word that God will only save a few and the rest will not be saved because God has no intention of saving them.

What kind of sick perverted god do you worship? Your view of god is something so sicking and evil that it makes me uneasy just thinking about it. God just choosing, without their free will, who he saves and who he will punish for all eternity, is such an(I don't think that their is a word in existence strong enough.) If he really does exist, and I'm so thankful that he does not, I think that these words would sum up my feelings:

Sobs and spastic cringes convulse my body.... I rage. My mind is burning with anguish. Contempt sweeps over me in waves of liquid fire.... "I hate you, God! You're full of empty promises and even more full of cruel threats! I hate life! I wish I had never been born!"... Helpless fury rages inside me. What horror! What injustice! Being called into existence in a world wracked with pain, catastrophe, and abuse -- and then -- hauled into judgment and sentenced to fiery torment. Forever without hope! "What hypocrisy! You call Yourself a God of love. So why did You invent a hopeless hell for Your cherished creatures?"... White-hot hatred mingled with despair and sorrow courseses through my body. Why had I wasted a moment of my life even trying to serve Jesus Christ?

~ An adaption of Pastor Charles Slagle's Statement

 

[D46]

John 6:37
Verse 37. All. The original word is in the neuter gender, but it is used, doubtless, for the masculine, or perhaps refers to his people considered as a mass or body, and means that every individual that the Father had given him should come to him.
The Father giveth me. We here learn that those who come to Christ, and who will be saved, are given to him by God.

1st. God promised him that he should see of the travail of his soul--that is, "the fruit of his wearisome toil" (Lowth), and should be satisfied, Isaiah 53:11.

2nd. All men are sinners, and none have any claim to mercy, and he may therefore bestow salvation on whom he pleases.

3rd. All men of themselves are disposed to reject the gospel, John 5:40.

4th. God enables those who do believe to do it. He draws them to him by his Word and Spirit; he opens their hearts to understand the Scriptures (Acts 16:14); and he grants to them repentance, Acts 11:18; 2Timothy 2:25.

5th. All those who become Christians may therefore be said to be given to Jesus as the reward of his sufferings, for his death was the price by which they were redeemed. Paul says (Ephesians 1:4-5) that, "he hath chosen us in him (that is, in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love; having predestinated us unto the adoption of children to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Shall come to me. This is an expression denoting that they would believe on him. To come to one implies our need of help, our confidence that he can aid us, and our readiness to trust to him. The sinner comes to Jesus feeling that he is poor, and needy, and wretched, and casts himself on his mercy, believing that he alone can save him. This expression also proves that men are not compelled to believe on Christ. Though they who believe are given to him, and though his Spirit works in them faith and repentance, yet they are made willing in the day of his power, Psalm 110:3. No man is compelled to go to heaven against his will, and no man is compelled to go to hell against his will. The Spirit of God inclines the will of one, and he comes freely as a moral agent. The other chooses the way to death; and, though God is constantly using means to save him, yet he prefers the path that leads down to woe.

Him that cometh. Every one that comes--that is, every one that comes in a proper manner, feeling that he is a lost and ruined sinner. This invitation is wide, and full, and free. It shows the unbounded mercy of God; and it shows, also, that the reason, and the only reason, why men are not saved, is that they will not come to Christ. Of any sinner it may be said that if he had been willing to come to Christ he might have come and been saved. As he chooses not to come, he cannot blame God because he saves others who are willing, no matter from what cause, and who thus are made partakers of everlasting life.

In no wise. In no manner, or at no time. The original is simply, "I will not cast out."

Cast out. Reject, or refuse to save. This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him.


But remember...Psalm 14:1 (KJV) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

...for even the devils believe in God...

James 2:19 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[JM]

The Bible speaks of mans inability, but never his ability to believe...the assumption is, man is able to please God in the flesh which isn't taught at all in Scripture. We find Paul telling us in Romans that belief (which is pleasing to God) cannot happen without first being born again. Logically, you have to be one or the other:calvinist or arminian. If you believe Christ died for the sins of the world (meaning everyone) and everyone isn't saved or will be saved, the atonement lacks the effectual or actual power to save. Christ's blood PLUS something else and this something else is the factor in saving that person.

The following Scripture detail people that didn't have ability and the there future was 'given' to them by God.

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,†Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,†I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,†Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,†II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,†Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath†which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,†were “endured with much long suffering†in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power knownâ€Â; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory†in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory†upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,†Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,†Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,†II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,†Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,†John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,†Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,†John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,†Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,†Matt. 7:6.

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,†Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.†Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,†Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Interesting word, Atonement in english. If you break it up and simply say,

at-one-ment, this is the short version of the intentions of the Father!

Joh 17:20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

See? Atonement... At-one-ment. Simple!

 

[cuiq]

Speaking of ability or inability let us not forget

Ezekiel 37:1-14

1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


Is this not a most excellent picture of Gods salvation.


Peace In Christ