Growth Auswitzch and the Jews

[ezra]

Romans 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

justified declared righteous just as if we never sinned

 

[for_his_glory]

ezra and Nathan12

Please go back to my post #37 and read those scriptures I gave as they show what God did before the foundation of the world. Do you really believe Jesus shed His blood before the foundation of the world or was it only God's plan before the foundation of the world?

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

God provided the first blood sacrifice to cover Adam and Eve's sin. It was by His grace as Adam had faith in God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God provided the final blood sacrifice through His Son Christ Jesus as the blood covers our sin through repentance.

Nowhere in these two scriptures does it say the blood saves us, but only covers our sin or in other words washes us clean again.

Are these scriptures false statements or are you reading them with a predetermined mind?

Neither one of you gave any scripture to show that the blood saves us. We are saved by grace through faith. Adding anything else to this is adding onto scripture.

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

justified declared righteous just as if we never sinned

In the OT salvation came by grace through faith alone. Same in the NT as salvation still comes by grace through faith alone and always will until Christ returns, Hebrews Chapter 11.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

It's the blood that makes atonement for one's life. Atonement is covering someone for the offense committed as we are set free from the consequences of sin, Hebrews 10:26, 27.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[ezra]

Nowhere in these two scriptures does it say the blood saves us

Neither one of you gave any scripture to show that the blood saves us.

please read hebrews 9

Adding anything else to this is adding onto scripture.

the doctrine of the Blood saving us is not adding to scripture ...you bet ya its saved by grace through faith
.had not Christ shed/died for our sin /justification there would be NO GRACE

"and i said it took the Blood to help make Grace " . What is Grace ? the divine favor of GOD. what did Jesus do on the cross he gave him self through death which shed Blood.. in exodus the Children of israel sacrificed a lamb took the Blood applied to the door post. so when the death angel passed by they was protected . the Blood is saving element it is a act of Grace the blood applied to our life when we get saved protects is from the 2nd death . which is a picture of salvation .

its like trying to make a cake from scratch and leave the flour out...
pardon my grammar i do better explaining in person i hope you understand my point .
Hebrews 9

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since{ the foundation of the world:} but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.




we will contiune to disagree over this the Blood is the cleansing agent to make grace possible you can reject the blood atonement all you want had Christ not shed his blood we would not be saved .yes even the o.t had shedding of blood [but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ] please note eternal by his blood . i have no issue with eph 2:8 but the cross with his blood is the KEY TO GRACE. I WILL STAND ON THIS TILL I DIE i can supply much scripture of the doctrine of the blood ..i dont mean to be blunt this is just how i post

 

[ezra]

It's the blood that makes atonement for one's life. Atonement is covering someone for the offense committed as we are set free from the consequences of sin, Hebrews 10:26, 27.

you have that part right it also saves us because it was shed for our sins...would you not call that grace a divine favor m y goodness look what part your missing ..its like the cake made from scratch and no flour. with out Christ shedding his blood where would we be ? -----------> lost on the highway to hell . i travelled that road not a fun road.. but jesus on the cross shedding his blood. built a bridge by extending his arms out so we could cross over to the other side... CAN you not see that is the key ingredient in Grace along with forgiveness

 

[th1b.taylor]

These answers from Ezra and Nathan make perfect sense when we understand some, often untaught, Basic Truth found in complete studies of the Holy Writ of our Elohim.

The Holy Word of YHWH teaches Predestination as an absolute fact and any denial of it being truth is tantamount to calling the Word of YHWH to be in error which is tantamount to declaring YHWH to not being The Supreme Being or that He has lied.




The whole issue is present only because of laziness and the lack of the desire to seek after the face of YHWH. That is true of both sides or extremes of the issue.




The truth of the matter is only understandable when it is understood that YHWH created this Time/Space Continuum for man and man alone. YHWH is, in one manor like the men that took the raw elements and with wrenches, rivet guns wrenches and cranes and they, together, created UH1H 67806, my Huey for me to participate in Military Actions. They were not confined to the space inside 806 but they created it for me.




YHWH is not confined to this Time/Space Continuum but rather, before it was created He already was. When YHWH explains to us that a thousand years is like unto Him as a day and that a day unto His is like a thousand year, it is best understood that Time, as we know it, is meaningless to our Elohim, YHWH.




He knows the future from the present and the past because He views the entire scene, beginning through the end, all together, at once. It is thus that the Prophecies in scripture have always been accurate and always will be. YHWH has already seen what, to us, will be.




According to Peter, YHWH would have none to perish but that all should repent a and YHWH is not a capricious god, creating some for no other reason than to spend Eternity in Hell.




Because our Elohim had already watched me repent and declare Him as my Savior before He created our Time/Space Continuum, by a thousand years or so, He wrote my name in the Book of Life. Not because He created me for Eternal Life, every Human is a Spiritually Eternal and too many of of us choose to reside in the Lake of Fire.




YHWH has already seen their decision and their names are omitted because He knows the Beginning and the end.

 

[ezra]

These answers from Ezra and Nathan make perfect sense when we understand some, often untaught, Basic Truth found in complete studies of the Holy Writ of our Elohim.

The Holy Word of YHWH teaches Predestination as an absolute fact and any denial of it being truth is tantamount to calling the Word of YHWH to be in error which is tantamount to declaring YHWH to not being The Supreme Being or that He has lied.




The whole issue is present only because of laziness and the lack of the desire to seek after the face of YHWH. That is true of both sides or extremes of the issue.




The truth of the matter is only understandable when it is understood that YHWH created this Time/Space Continuum for man and man alone. YHWH is, in one manor like the men that took the raw elements and with wrenches, rivet guns wrenches and cranes and they, together, created UH1H 67806, my Huey for me to participate in Military Actions. They were not confined to the space inside 806 but they created it for me.




YHWH is not confined to this Time/Space Continuum but rather, before it was created He already was. When YHWH explains to us that a thousand years is like unto Him as a day and that a day unto His is like a thousand year, it is best understood that Time, as we know it, is meaningless to our Elohim, YHWH.




He knows the future from the present and the past because He views the entire scene, beginning through the end, all together, at once. It is thus that the Prophecies in scripture have always been accurate and always will be. YHWH has already seen what, to us, will be.




According to Peter, YHWH would have none to perish but that all should repent a and YHWH is not a capricious god, creating some for no other reason than to spend Eternity in Hell.




Because our Elohim had already watched me repent and declare Him as my Savior before He created our Time/Space Continuum, by a thousand years or so, He wrote my name in the Book of Life. Not because He created me for Eternal Life, every Human is a Spiritually Eternal and too many of of us choose to reside in the Lake of Fire.




YHWH has already seen their decision and their names are omitted because He knows the Beginning and the end.

what does this have to do with the blood saving us? which actually there is no one certain element other than Christ .at that it took his death on the cross to pay the price for our sins

 

[for_his_glory]

you have that part right it also saves us because it was shed for our sins...would you not call that grace a divine favor m y goodness look what part your missing ..its like the cake made from scratch and no flour. with out Christ shedding his blood where would we be ? -----------> lost on the highway to hell . i travelled that road not a fun road.. but jesus on the cross shedding his blood. built a bridge by extending his arms out so we could cross over to the other side... CAN you not see that is the key ingredient in Grace along with forgiveness

Exodus 32: 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

There are many more scriptures about what God has done before the foundation of the world as only God knows whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the beginning to the end. It is not the blood of Jesus that saves us, but only makes atonement for our sin so we can reconcile ourselves back to God's grace through faith in Him as we are saved by God's grace to all who have faith in Him.

In the OT days blood sacrifices were made annually as a ceremony of confession and atonement for sin. In the NT Jesus is God's plan before the foundation of the world that He would be the final blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin and now sits at the right hand of God making intercession for all who will repent first as the blood of Jesus is the foundation for redemption that sets us free from sin.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are accepted in the beloved as we are made free of sin by the cleansing power of the blood by the grace of God through faith as it was in the beginning with Adam unto the end when Christ returns.

 

[ezra]

We are accepted in the beloved as we are made free of sin by the cleansing power of the blood by the grace of God through faith as it was in the beginning with Adam unto the end when Christ returns.

i do believe your about to get it ..what does the song say? what can make me whole again nothing but the Blood of Jesus === which if made whole=== salvation ===GRACE you make absolutely no sense in denying the Blood saves us .i have showed you the entire combination it takes to ahv Grace . it takes Christ it takes the shedding of his Blood... BY HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED spiritually first physical second . you cant have a cross with a person (Christ) being crucified with out the shedding of Blood ,which was shed even before the cross .how can we not be forgiven with out the shedding of Blood there is no remission of sins . so far you have side stepped every thing i have posted..
writing is not my cup of tea. grammar is not best feature .so lets hit this again what is GRACE noah found grace in the yes of the Lord .correct ? yessssss what was that GRACE ? divine favour noah God speaking i am going to destroy this earth by a flood. paraphrase build the ark the way i tell you.. gather the animals put them on board.get your family in the ark .

after they did all this fast forward GOD shut the door.it started to rain water came up. noah and his family was what ? saved.from the flood GOD in his divine favor granted him grace . so there we established Grace in the beginning.. this maybe unorthodox but it best i can do typing /posting . the flood waters went down they got off the ark .

what was the next thing done ?
Genesis 8:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

in this grace noah offered a sacrifice . now i am through all the ground work..on last time there can BE NO saving grace with out the shedding of Blood . please understand before any one else jumps in uses the wild card no debating . this is not a debate but a Discussion of Bible theology.. for us to have saving grace by faith which we accept his grace by faith there has to be the Blood once again combination so yes grace saves us but not with out the BLOOD .
i have nothing to lose not even care if i get a conceded from you saying i see your your point i agree .
but i will assure you i will stand by ground.. lol and yes i know eyes are all over this reading every word very line i typed/posted.. if those reading can find any thing i posted that is not scripture highlight it and point it out . i also know i have done kicked the Golden cow over. the ball is in your court i have showed every thing in biblical perspective...
i fail to see your point denial of the Blood saving us which is grace

 

[for_his_glory]

i do believe your about to get it ..what does the song say? what can make me whole again nothing but the Blood of Jesus === which if made whole=== salvation ===GRACE you make absolutely no sense in denying the Blood saves us .i have showed you the entire combination it takes to ahv Grace . it takes Christ it takes the shedding of his Blood... BY HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED spiritually first physical second . you cant have a cross with a person (Christ) being crucified with out the shedding of Blood ,which was shed even before the cross .how can we not be forgiven with out the shedding of Blood there is no remission of sins . so far you have side stepped every thing i have posted..
writing is not my cup of tea. grammar is not best feature .so lets hit this again what is GRACE noah found grace in the yes of the Lord .correct ? yessssss what was that GRACE ? divine favour noah God speaking i am going to destroy this earth by a flood. paraphrase build the ark the way i tell you.. gather the animals put them on board.get your family in the ark .

after they did all this fast forward GOD shut the door.it started to rain water came up. noah and his family was what ? saved.from the flood GOD in his divine favor granted him grace . so there we established Grace in the beginning.. this maybe unorthodox but it best i can do typing /posting . the flood waters went down they got off the ark .

what was the next thing done ?
Genesis 8:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

in this grace noah offered a sacrifice . now i am through all the ground work..on last time there can BE NO saving grace with out the shedding of Blood . please understand before any one else jumps in uses the wild card no debating . this is not a debate but a Discussion of Bible theology.. for us to have saving grace by faith which we accept his grace by faith there has to be the Blood once again combination so yes grace saves us but not with out the BLOOD .
i have nothing to lose not even care if i get a conceded from you saying i see your your point i agree .
but i will assure you i will stand by ground.. lol and yes i know eyes are all over this reading every word very line i typed/posted.. if those reading can find any thing i posted that is not scripture highlight it and point it out . i also know i have done kicked the Golden cow over. the ball is in your court i have showed every thing in biblical perspective...
i fail to see your point denial of the Blood saving us which is grace

I agree that this is not a debate, but us discussing this matter. I'm not denying the blood of Christ, but showing that it is for the forgiveness of sin by God's grace as it's God's grace through faith we will be saved in the end when Christ returns and we are caught up to Him.

Whole again as in being free from sin by the washing of the blood.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

It's only through the blood sacrifice that God will forgive our sin, which then we are reinstated to His grace through faith that saves us. Forgiveness is the divine miracle of grace.

Actually in all reality we are not saved yet, but only kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. God will keep us from the hour of temptations within the trials and tribulations we face here on earth as that is His unmerited favor towards those who are His own by the washing of the blood of Christ that we are cleansed and made righteous before Him.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It makes no difference to me whether you agree or not as like you, I am only giving that in scripture of what I believe.

 

[ezra]

Actually in all reality we are not saved yet, but only kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. God will keep us from the hour of temptations within the trials and tribulations we face here on earth as that is His unmerited favor towards those who are His own by the washing of the blood of Christ that we are cleansed and made righteous before Him.

aww yes technicalities yes am well aware but were still saved by through the Blood of Jesus.

I'm not denying the blood of Christ, but showing that it is for the forgiveness of sin by God's grace as it's God's grace through faith we will be saved in the end when Christ returns and we are caught up to Him.

lol this is exactly what i been saying only i use thed the words combination .with out the shedding Blood there is no forgiveness of our sin ..which is our salvation ..even though its not completed till we make it home

unto a lively hope

here is away to word this with a caption a lively hope by a living God been several years since i used this as a message .what you are believing is ok it is how you worded it in the O.P

 

[for_his_glory]

aww yes technicalities yes am well aware but were still saved by through the Blood of Jesus.

lol this is exactly what i been saying only i use thed the words combination .with out the shedding Blood there is no forgiveness of our sin ..which is our salvation ..even though its not completed till we make it home here is away to word this with a caption a lively hope by a living God been several years since i used this as a message .what you are believing is ok it is how you worded it in the O.P

I think we were on the same page, but wording it differently, LOL.

 

[Nathan12]

Do you really believe Jesus shed His blood before the foundation of the world or was it only God's plan before the foundation of the world?

Obviously you do not believe that God sees things as ACCOMPLISHED FACTS before they take place. God the Father saw the shed blood of Christ as an accomplished fact BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world. But you do not believe this. I trust others do.

 

[for_his_glory]

Obviously you do not believe that God sees things as ACCOMPLISHED FACTS before they take place. God the Father saw the shed blood of Christ as an accomplished fact BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world. But you do not believe this. I trust others do.

An accomplished fact of a future literal act that was God's plan before the foundation of the world, but not yet brought forth until God's timing of the actual act of the shedding of the blood of Christ. Jesus was not crucified before the foundation of the world, but only God's plan at that time.

 

[ezra]

Jesus was not crucified before the foundation of the world, but only God's plan at that time.

yes and NO the Blood was there the Blood was a must for salvation,, the plan was not yet fully implemented so plan time yes and Big must yes until the cross every things else was a shadow of good things to come..

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm just as guilty as everyone else as we have derailed the OP which is all about what DougK said about how God uses disaster to bring about His will like that of the Holocaust. Let us go back to that discussion, thank you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

what does this have to do with the blood saving us? which actually there is no one certain element other than Christ .at that it took his death on the cross to pay the price for our sins

I'm sorry but getting a grip on the price paid, the reason for the price and living with the event that the Natural Man considers to crude and unreasonable will never make sense until folks cease compartmentalizing Scripture and begin to realize none of it will stand without the rest of it.

 

[I_love_Springtime]

I'm just as guilty as everyone else as we have derailed the OP which is all about what DougK said about how God uses disaster to bring about His will like that of the Holocaust. Let us go back to that discussion, thank you.

Thanks for his glory. I think the fact that God brought a very important part of history to reality (the creation of Israel) after something so awful, demonstrates that His eye (and heart) is still focused on His people.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for his glory. I think the fact that God brought a very important part of history to reality (the creation of Israel) after something so awful, demonstrates that His eye (and heart) is still focused on His people.

God's heart has always been for His people as we can read in Rev 7 of the generational 144,000. These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times and God has always used these disasters to draw His people back to Him.

 

[Who Me]

Just exactly how could anyone be saved by the blood of Jesus before it was ever shed for us or as far as that goes even before Jesus began His ministry here on earth? Please give me scripture so I can go study what you have said.

Other than Hebrews 11, it is simple reasoning.
God created time, which means he is not bound by it. He being outside time can apply Jesus's blood to those who before he created the universe he planned to save.