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avoid vain arguments - do not bite and devour

ezra

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Galatians 2:20
romans 8:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
work out our own salvation take care of me first great advice but will we? merry Christmas
 

for_his_glory

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Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize organized religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 

Bob Carabbio

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One aspect of the "Charismatic Outpouring" ('66-'78 or so) was The consciousness that the Denominational "Precious defining doctrines" that generally led to interdenominational dissension in most cases weren't worth fighting over, and we all saw relational, and spiritual aspects, that were so much higher than the normal minor theological background noise that kept us separated. This, of course was only possible during the time when the presence of the Holy Spirit was strong during the time of the revival itself. in the late '70s, and '80s there tended to be a return to the "old ways", and folks tended to re-denominationalize - uless they grouped off into trying to "Keep it Going", which was impossible without the driving of the Holy Spirit. I went back into the AG afterwards, But was no longer "Defined by it" in other than a general fashion.
 

for_his_glory

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One aspect of the "Charismatic Outpouring" ('66-'78 or so) was The consciousness that the Denominational "Precious defining doctrines" that generally led to interdenominational dissension in most cases weren't worth fighting over, and we all saw relational, and spiritual aspects, that were so much higher than the normal minor theological background noise that kept us separated. This, of course was only possible during the time when the presence of the Holy Spirit was strong during the time of the revival itself. in the late '70s, and '80s there tended to be a return to the "old ways", and folks tended to re-denominationalize - uless they grouped off into trying to "Keep it Going", which was impossible without the driving of the Holy Spirit. I went back into the AG afterwards, But was no longer "Defined by it" in other than a general fashion.

We should never be defined by religion, but only that of what spirit is dwelling in us. We will know them by the fruits they bare.
 

stovebolts

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One aspect of the "Charismatic Outpouring" ('66-'78 or so) was The consciousness that the Denominational "Precious defining doctrines" that generally led to interdenominational dissension in most cases weren't worth fighting over, and we all saw relational, and spiritual aspects, that were so much higher than the normal minor theological background noise that kept us separated. This, of course was only possible during the time when the presence of the Holy Spirit was strong during the time of the revival itself. in the late '70s, and '80s there tended to be a return to the "old ways", and folks tended to re-denominationalize - uless they grouped off into trying to "Keep it Going", which was impossible without the driving of the Holy Spirit. I went back into the AG afterwards, But was no longer "Defined by it" in other than a general fashion.
Thanks for sharing your experience. It's amazing to me how the Holy Spirit moves through the generations.
 

JLB

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a million dollar question personalities on the net come out.. try getting a apostolic Pentecostal to find common ground with a southern baptist hard to do

There should be no such denominations in the Church.

These denominations spring forth from man made doctrines.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

  • that you all speak the same thing,
  • that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind


There is one doctrine; The doctrine of Christ.



JLB
 

stovebolts

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There should be no such denominations in the Church.

These denominations spring forth from man made doctrines.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

  • that you all speak the same thing,
  • that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind


There is one doctrine; The doctrine of Christ.



JLB
This is truth brother.
Wasn't there a thread on the doctrine of Christ? It may be time to revisit that topic, or start a fresh thread. I think it would be edifying.
 

JLB

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great scriptures

Jesus came to divide truth from error so that people could be saved

Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”
Luke 12:51-53


Actially, the scripture you responded to, mentions nothing about dividing truth from error.

It’s about dividing people, close family members who refuse to submit to Jesus Christ and His teachings from those who do.

It’s important that we come into agreement over the things He taught us, the things in scripture.

JLB
 

JLB

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I went back into the AG afterwards, But was no longer "Defined by it" in other than a general fashion.

Amen.


There are some good doctrinal teachings in the AG, but a few that are still not biblical.


For me personally, it is what the Pastor and leadership teach to their individual congregations, and are living out as an example.

I pray for a return of the solid biblical teachings of the first century church and the outpouring of the Spirit to return to the Church in these last days.


JLB
 

JLB

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Can anyone imagine how it must have been in the first Century, living in Jerusalem, even during the time when the Temple was still standing.


Living in a tight knit Jewish community of Judaism.


Even living in the same household where some of the people are believers in Christ Jesus, while the others are not, claiming He is a false prophet.


Can you imagine the tension?


The head of the household demanding that the believers keep the law of Moses, while the believers are trying to explain that Jesus fulfilled the law, and that He is the true Messiah.


This is the context of Luke 12:51-53




JLB
 

Prycejosh1987

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Galatians 5:15 - 2 Timothy 2:23 - 2 Timothy 2:14 - says that when we start devouring one another rather than having a friendly discussion of scripture we risk tearing others down and ruining anyone that is listening to the ungodly attacking exchanges
Unfortunately, we live in a spiritual world where there isnt many pillars of faith. People with weaker faith are people that's minds can be changed with words. We have to be careful with our words, as to not deter new people in faith.
 

tim-from-pa

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discussing scripture is such a blessing - there are so many treasures in the bible and people see things differently which makes for an opportunity to expand our understanding of God's messages to us

i wonder what makes people turn a discussion on a topic into a discussion of the person we disagree with

it seems like when someone dislikes what another person says the next comments are about the person

why do we do that?

is it because we dislike anyone that disagrees with us?

is it because when someone disagrees with us we get hurt somehow and now want to hurt the person back?

what should we do when someone starts getting personal rather than continuing to discuss a topic?

what i do is try to talk to the person privately - and try to find out what i did that caused the person to start being unfriendly toward me and what i can do that would make things right between us - Romans 12:18 - Romans 14:19

almost every time trying to reconcile changes things for the better - 1 Peter 3:8 - Ephesians 4:32

i think we all know when someone is not being friendly to us - we can feel the tension

i think we all need to learn to love each other while we discuss topics

i think we all need to examine ourselves when we start disliking someone for disagreeing with us

Galatians 5:15 - 2 Timothy 2:23 - 2 Timothy 2:14 - says that when we start devouring one another rather than having a friendly discussion of scripture we risk tearing others down and ruining anyone that is listening to the ungodly attacking exchanges

i love you all and love hearing other pov's - i just wish we could be friendly in our discussions so that we look like people who love God and our fellow man - otherwise we are just clanging cymbals and noisy gongs - 1 Corinthians 13:1

for those that want to deal with what they consider false doctrine - it can still be done with a friendly discussion - getting angry and unkind in a discussion produces nothing good - people dig in their heels when offended - they stop listening to what you have to say because your delivery/tone was unscriptural - lacking the reconciliation goal - when people are treated as enemies they become irreconcilable - they lock into defending themselves - so the discussion of truth is buried beneath a fight for personal safety when under attack

imo theological discussions have 2 goals:
1. get a better understanding of what God is saying to us - expand our understanding of scripture
2. an opportunity to hone our skills at speaking the truth in love - iow continuing to genuinely love someone we disagree with - learning to keep loving people we disagree with helps us become more Christlike

praying for a more Godly approach to theological discussions
I like other pov's also. I may or may not agree, but as for the arguing, I think it may be a personal pride and/or security issue. In the first case, a person may feel they studied and know the Lord well and thus has a position therein. They do, but that does not always mean they are 100% correct. As for the security, maybe they fear believing the "wrong thing" may mean condemnation for them or whatever other negative connotation it may represent. So they hang on certain scripture to convince themselves they are in the right. There may be other reasons, but how do I know of these two? A person can only judge what they experienced themselves so I was that way. Getting older now things don't bother me so much. This is why when I disagree with someone and there's an exchange going back and forth, I still give them a "thumbs up" oftentimes. I appreciate someone is taking time to spend with me. In addition, there is oftentimes very insightful reasoning going on that I may not see. The Spirit deals with each person the way they are made, according to their gifts.

The only time at my age I may get a little irritated is if we have a different viewpoint,we each expressed it, and then after the fact I think I left but the person pursues me and badgers me over it constantly. Fortunately that does not happen often. Another thing a bit unnerving to me is I usually answer the OP directly as if speaking directly to that person. I don't even know what the other posts usually say. But then someone else answers me and says to the effect, you mean to say that blah blah blah ... Show us the scripture, or that's not what I believe. The thread is not even about me. I was answering the OP. So why is something I say threatening apparently to someone I was not even addressing? Yes, unnerving to say the least.
 

choir loft

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discussing scripture is such a blessing - there are so many treasures in the bible and people see things differently which makes for an opportunity to expand our understanding of God's messages to us

i wonder what makes people turn a discussion on a topic into a discussion of the person we disagree with

it seems like when someone dislikes what another person says the next comments are about the person

why do we do that?

is it because we dislike anyone that disagrees with us?

is it because when someone disagrees with us we get hurt somehow and now want to hurt the person back?

what should we do when someone starts getting personal rather than continuing to discuss a topic?

what i do is try to talk to the person privately - and try to find out what i did that caused the person to start being unfriendly toward me and what i can do that would make things right between us - Romans 12:18 - Romans 14:19

almost every time trying to reconcile changes things for the better - 1 Peter 3:8 - Ephesians 4:32

i think we all know when someone is not being friendly to us - we can feel the tension

i think we all need to learn to love each other while we discuss topics

i think we all need to examine ourselves when we start disliking someone for disagreeing with us

Galatians 5:15 - 2 Timothy 2:23 - 2 Timothy 2:14 - says that when we start devouring one another rather than having a friendly discussion of scripture we risk tearing others down and ruining anyone that is listening to the ungodly attacking exchanges

i love you all and love hearing other pov's - i just wish we could be friendly in our discussions so that we look like people who love God and our fellow man - otherwise we are just clanging cymbals and noisy gongs - 1 Corinthians 13:1

for those that want to deal with what they consider false doctrine - it can still be done with a friendly discussion - getting angry and unkind in a discussion produces nothing good - people dig in their heels when offended - they stop listening to what you have to say because your delivery/tone was unscriptural - lacking the reconciliation goal - when people are treated as enemies they become irreconcilable - they lock into defending themselves - so the discussion of truth is buried beneath a fight for personal safety when under attack

imo theological discussions have 2 goals:
1. get a better understanding of what God is saying to us - expand our understanding of scripture
2. an opportunity to hone our skills at speaking the truth in love - iow continuing to genuinely love someone we disagree with - learning to keep loving people we disagree with helps us become more Christlike

praying for a more Godly approach to theological discussions

I know a man who turned his back upon church - completely. He did so because he said too many of them argued about scripture.

STEEL SHARPENS STEEL. - Proverbs 27:17

How can you know if your interpretation of scripture is correct? One will certainly never learn if the words they write or speak are never challenged.

There are many today who know not the Bible and are willfully convinced of SINful speculation and philosophy. Indeed they may even not be aware of it unless someone calls them out.

Scripture doesn't lie, but liars quote scripture.

TV evangelist Jimmy Baker made huge amounts of money in his time. When he was convicted of real estate fraud and sent to prison he testified that he'd never read the Bible before he spent time in stir. He read the Bible, but apparently didn't learn anything from it because he's back at it again - back on TV again selling his snake oil to anyone who will listen to him. Baker is one of those who quote scripture to their own ends.

Scripture doesn't lie, but satan quoted scripture to tempt Christ on several occasions.

One of the reasons those who follow Christ are called to come together is to compare personal interpretations of scripture NEVER to assert their opinion - for God doesn't listen to the opinion of mankind. It is our duty to learn HIS Word and to follow it. One of the ways to test the attitude we've adopted is to compare it with others who also know Christ.

Disagreement does not necessarily imply anger or haughtiness. ACTS 17:11

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

RBDERRICK

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discussing scripture is such a blessing - there are so many treasures in the bible and people see things differently which makes for an opportunity to expand our understanding of God's messages to us

i wonder what makes people turn a discussion on a topic into a discussion of the person we disagree with

it seems like when someone dislikes what another person says the next comments are about the person

why do we do that?

is it because we dislike anyone that disagrees with us?

is it because when someone disagrees with us we get hurt somehow and now want to hurt the person back?

what should we do when someone starts getting personal rather than continuing to discuss a topic?

what i do is try to talk to the person privately - and try to find out what i did that caused the person to start being unfriendly toward me and what i can do that would make things right between us - Romans 12:18 - Romans 14:19

almost every time trying to reconcile changes things for the better - 1 Peter 3:8 - Ephesians 4:32

i think we all know when someone is not being friendly to us - we can feel the tension

i think we all need to learn to love each other while we discuss topics

i think we all need to examine ourselves when we start disliking someone for disagreeing with us

Galatians 5:15 - 2 Timothy 2:23 - 2 Timothy 2:14 - says that when we start devouring one another rather than having a friendly discussion of scripture we risk tearing others down and ruining anyone that is listening to the ungodly attacking exchanges

i love you all and love hearing other pov's - i just wish we could be friendly in our discussions so that we look like people who love God and our fellow man - otherwise we are just clanging cymbals and noisy gongs - 1 Corinthians 13:1

for those that want to deal with what they consider false doctrine - it can still be done with a friendly discussion - getting angry and unkind in a discussion produces nothing good - people dig in their heels when offended - they stop listening to what you have to say because your delivery/tone was unscriptural - lacking the reconciliation goal - when people are treated as enemies they become irreconcilable - they lock into defending themselves - so the discussion of truth is buried beneath a fight for personal safety when under attack

imo theological discussions have 2 goals:
1. get a better understanding of what God is saying to us - expand our understanding of scripture
2. an opportunity to hone our skills at speaking the truth in love - iow continuing to genuinely love someone we disagree with - learning to keep loving people we disagree with helps us become more Christlike

praying for a more Godly approach to theological discussions
discussing scripture is such a blessing - there are so many treasures in the bible and people see things differently which makes for an opportunity to expand our understanding of God's messages to us

Avoiding vain arguments is good, avoiding disputes in the Scripture is not.

The key is knowing what vain argument is, and avoiding it, so as to avoid the wrath of man that works not the righteousness of God:

First of all, Scripture commends disputing the Scriptures with knowledge of the truth:

Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

And so, when does good dispute of Scripture become vain argument?

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Vain argument begins with trying to argue the things of God with our own opinions and philosophy of man, rather than strictly by the Scriptures as written.

Everyone has an opinion, but they are nonstarters for doctrine of Christ.

Example: Well, I think God...

And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus.


Honest disputes in the Scriptures become vain, when a disagreement on a certain point is irreconcilable. To go on is to only argue and talk over one another, slinging Scriptures at one another like so many darts.

Better to go to separate corners, than to try and draw blood.

When we each reject what the other is saying, when we have both clearly had our say, then there is no further 'discussion', only wrath.

I also include unfair debate: not fairly responding to the other's point, but only talking over them with our own mantra. I'm not a sounding board for those who only care what they read from Scripture, and have no interest in being corrected, even for their own good.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.

This admonition goes both ways: it is for our own good, so as not to begin to browbeat, and it is for the other's good not to be browbeaten.

If we believe another is rejecting Scripture as plainly written, then it is best for us to cut off any more debate, lest our righteous indignation becomes wrathful frustration at some thick-headed heathen, that can't even read and acknowledge what is plainly written, that any idiot child with half a brain can understand!!!!

Oops. Sorry. This, of course, is the one I have to keep working on.

I.e. we love someone, that we have a sharp dispute with, by no more disputing with that someone, even if they want to.

Silence can be the gold coin of compelling someone to rethink themselves.

And so, the simplicity of avoiding spiritual sin over fair disputes, is to have rule over our spirit by obeying the Scriptural guidelines between good disagreement that edifies, and bad argument over no disagreement at all.

I.e. hard-headedness is good, and iron sharpens iron, but only brute wild sheep butt heads to conquer the other.

I used to like those nature wildlife clips before movies way back when.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

We are to be better than simple brute conquerors of the faith, which leads only to wrath of man, and not righteousness indignation of God.

Even Jesus knew to leave it alone, when He saw He wasn't getting anywhere with others:

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Especially when they want to kill you for it:

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Now, this Marquis de Queensbury rule does not necessarily apply, when defending the truth of the gospel against the lies of men, for the sake of other souls being decieved and drawn away from Jesus as Christ of God:

I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
 

gralanlinae

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great scriptures

Jesus came to divide truth from error so that people could be saved - but even He did not strive attack disrespect others

notice how when they called Him a demon He called them hypocrites - quite a few steps down from what they said to Him - meaning Jesus was DE-escalating things - we should do likewise

He was actually a man of few words - and each word was potent - learning to imitate Jesus in this would be better than what we do presently

Jesus also said He ONLY said what the Father told Him to say - and only did what the Father showed Him to do - another thing we could learn to do

if we were slow to speak slow to anger we might have more impact than we presently have

so if we looked closely at some of these things it still creates a doctrine of de-escalate - tell the truth - say only what God tells you to say - not what you feel like saying - etc

iow we have some work to do to walk in the footsteps of Jesus
Yes, it is work to walk by faith rather than by the influences of our earthling neighbors. I make the distinction because God does, those who are God's children are aliens and strangers on this planet currently. Since Jesus only spoke truth that came directly from the Father, we must be humble to build up each other in truth and fact. Unfortunately we tend to live like the pagans around us. We are not better, just forgiven. But God is working on making us in the image of Jesus. If that isn't happening, we do not belong to Him and He is not our Master, Lord and Savior. I'm listening to the bible on audio while I type, and am listening to Jesus' words prior to entering Jerusalem for Crucifixion. His prayers are for others, even in his disappoint with them.
 

Dorothy Mae

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The problem of personal attacks is one that is in the culture. It’s seen from politics to personal exchanges. It’s likely because we are not taught how to discuss a matter focusing on the topic alone. Most find this quite difficult. What is more, we aren’t taught to actually think, just win. I’ll give an example.

I’ve found it to be quite common for christians to quote scriptural references that do not at all support their position. Some use pages of them. But they refuse to explain how that verse supports their position. If you ask them to explain it, they refuse. They just cannot bring themselves to think.

Or worse, some cannot explain what they believe in their own words. They give long links so you know what they supposedly think. They cannot even quote scripture but let someone else do that. How can they possibly hold a discussion beyond insults if you don’t accept their link or verses?

This is a root problem. Maybe there’s a fear that if they think about the scripture they’ll lose something.
 

jerry63935

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what do you mean the problem is the flesh? - pentecostals won't let you preach? - or your flesh?
this is a old post the problem should be phrased Man which can equal flesh ..not all denoms has this issue there are several flavors of Baptist that will not allow anyone teach preach partake of communion unless your a member of that said Church a former gen baptist minister help build another Church ASOG .

they had dedication services for the building. the pastor recognized him for his work on the building . it was said a person spoke up and said the only good baptist is one full of the Holy ghost ..meaning speaking in tongues july 13th i finished up preaching for 4 weeks i think it was at the UMC i was raised in they had no pastor.

so the Lord allowed me to go up preach there. come back to the church i pastored and preach again that morning 2 separate messages . i grew a lot in that time and learning how to balance which message should be preached.......... admittedly i did mention few things i was gfven in each service but it was not me yes i would do it again
 

jerry63935

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Yes, it is work to walk by faith rather than by the influences of our earthling neighbors. I make the distinction because God does, those who are God's children are aliens and strangers on this planet currently. Since Jesus only spoke truth that came directly from the Father, we must be humble to build up each other in truth and fact. Unfortunately we tend to live like the pagans around us. We are not better, just forgiven. But God is working on making us in the image of Jesus. If that isn't happening, we do not belong to Him and He is not our Master, Lord and Savior. I'm listening to the bible on audio while I type, and am listening to Jesus' words prior to entering Jerusalem for Crucifixion. His prayers are for others, even in his disappoint with them.
lots truth here
 
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