Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[Scandinavian27]

AKJVReader brought to light the Biblical example of someone who was promised a place with Jesus but was never baptized.

This was also before the new covenant, though.

Anyway, I think that this verse is key and the reason why we should seek water baptism.

Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Jacy]

Scriptures do not lie...
When we are baptized physically, with physical water, a spiritual process does happen, as long as we use the name of "Jesus". Baptism in Jesus Name, during the actual baptism when His Name is spoken, applies the spiritual baptism of Christ's blood to ourselves, and our sins are washed away...it is a physical obedience in order to have spiritual obedience. We must apply the blood of Jesus toour lives with the remission of sins...hence, water baptism by full immersion.

We can't just say "Jesus died, so now I apply His blood to myself." Just having spoken words and no action goes along with faith without works, and the Bible states that way of thinking is dead:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26

 

[Alabaster]

Scriptures do not lie...
When we are baptized physically, with physical water, a spiritual process does happen, as long as we use the name of "Jesus". Baptism in Jesus Name, during the actual baptism when His Name is spoken, applies the spiritual baptism of Christ's blood to ourselves, and our sins are washed away...it is a physical obedience in order to have spiritual obedience. We must apply the blood of Jesus toour lives with the remission of sins...hence, water baptism by full immersion.

We can't just say "Jesus died, so now I apply His blood to myself." Just having spoken words and no action goes along with faith without works, and the Bible states that way of thinking is dead:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26

My sins were completely washed away by the blood of Jesus the moment I believed.

Romans 5:9 NLT
And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

Revelation 1:5 NKJV
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

 

[dadof10]

We can't just say "Jesus died, so now I apply His blood to myself." Just having spoken words and no action goes along with faith without works, and the Bible states that way of thinking is dead:

Exactly. Which is what "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." in 1 Pt. means. The merits of the resurrection are applied at baptism.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Alabaster]

Exactly. Which is what "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." in 1 Pt. means. The merits of the resurrection are applied at baptism.

What merits would they be?

When I received Jesus Christ at age 10, I was saved completely, and received the new life promised to me by my faith. I received eternal life then and there BEFORE my baptism.

 

[Jacy]

My sins were completely washed away by the blood of Jesus the moment I believed.

Romans 5:9 NLT
And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

Revelation 1:5 NKJV
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

In Romans 5:9, it says "he will certainly save us" not that he has saved us. There has to be a participation, a covenant that we enter into and part of that new covenant that Jesus has established is through water baptism. Of course Jesus will save us...if we follow what the scripture says to do.

The definition for "believe" is faith + works. You can't say that you believe, and then be saved. It takes action.

 

[Scandinavian27]

What merits would they be?

When I received Jesus Christ at age 10, I was saved completely, and received the new life promised to me by my faith. I received eternal life then and there BEFORE my baptism.

I don't quite agree with the once saved, always saved philosophy. We must still act in obedience to Christ if we expect to inherit eternal life.

 

[RoadDebris]

Because the word "works" here and elsewhere refers to "works of the law" not everything except faith. Baptism, keeping the commandments, sacrifice, etc. are not works. Drew can explain this concept in greater detail and with greater clarity than I can.

Is that true? Let's text it.

The Greek word translated "works" is ergon (from which we get ergonomics). It means action of any kind, including intent.

2041. ????? (ergon) -- work

So the Holy Spirit, through Paul, says there is no action taken by the individual which causes his salvation. According to the Bible, those who receive it don't even intend to receive it. If Ephesians 2 is not clear enough, Paul breaks it down again in Romans:

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy - Rom. 9:16

In spite of this some people claim the "Sinner's Prayer" or baptism or not listening to Led Zeppelin causes a person to be saved, but they do this in spite of what God says on the matter.

 

[dadof10]

What merits would they be?

When I received Jesus Christ at age 10, I was saved completely, and received the new life promised to me by my faith. I received eternal life then and there BEFORE my baptism.

Ok. I can't speak to your personal faith walk, I'm only giving you the plain words of Scripture, which say we are not justified by faith alone and that water baptism saves.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

When one really looks closely at Jesus`words to Nicodemus, one will see that He is contrasting physical birth (water) with spiritual rebirth.

In Palestine, the colloquial for giving birth used the word, 'water' as the act of delivery.

Jesus said that we must be born (of water, physically) and we must be born of the Spirit.

There is no mention of baptism as integral.

This is one of the more ridiculous interpretations I've heard. I know it's not yours, Alabaster, I know you are just repeating something that may "explain" the "water and Spirit" verses in light of sola-fide, but, please think about it for just a minute. For this to make sense, Jesus would have to be actually saying that a person has to be born to saved. Isn't that redundant, considering He's talking to a person who was born? It's like saying, "you must be alive and breathing to be saved." In this interpretation the water amounts to nothing.

Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Nicodemus obviously misunderstood Jesus. He didn't understand how a person could be re-born, so Jesus clarifies HOW TO BE REBORN, NOT BORN THE FIRST TIME:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

"Water and the Spirit" is how Jesus says we are born again (or "from above"). Nicodemus didn't ask how to be born "physically", he knew that. The context of the entire encounter is his misunderstanding of how a person is REBORN, and the answer is by "water and spirit".

 

[Sam21]

In Acts 2:38 Peter said, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 3:19 Peter said,repent you therefore and be CONVERTED that your sins may be blotted out. In the second sermon Peter does not even mention water baptism but simply says to be converted. So if someone wants to claim salvation by water only because of what Peter says in Acts2:38, then of course someone can also claim salvation simply by conversion because of what Peter says in Acts3:19.
Belief in salvation by water baptism is an "easy out", we just do a few little exercises and "presto"we get to go to Heaven! Real salvation can only occur when the heart of a person is commited completely to GOD(not some religion)and when the person realizes that only God can save and that salvation occurs because of total faith in the Person of Jesus Christ(not in a church, sacraments,baptism,ect). God simply will not accept faith in anything but Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

 

[Sam21]

This is one of the more ridiculous interpretations I've heard. I know it's not yours, Alabaster, I know you are just repeating something that may "explain" the "water and Spirit" verses in light of sola-fide, but, please think about it for just a minute. For this to make sense, Jesus would have to be actually saying that a person has to be born to saved. Isn't that redundant, considering He's talking to a person who was born? It's like saying, "you must be alive and breathing to be saved." In this interpretation the water amounts to nothing.

Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Nicodemus obviously misunderstood Jesus. He didn't understand how a person could be re-born, so Jesus clarifies HOW TO BE REBORN, NOT BORN THE FIRST TIME:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

"Water and the Spirit" is how Jesus says we are born again (or "from above"). Nicodemus didn't ask how to be born "physically", he knew that. The context of the entire encounter is his misunderstanding of how a person is REBORN, and the answer is by "water and spirit".

Sorry, but the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus was about physical birth(it IS a water birth)and spirit birth, so it is quite in the line of discussion for Jesus to say born of water and born of Spirit. Also, this statement was made BEFORE the thief on the cross was saved, if salvation was only by water baptism first then that man could not have been saved.

 

[francisdesales]

Is that true? Let's text it.

The Greek word translated "works" is ergon (from which we get ergonomics). It means action of any kind, including intent.

2041. ????? (ergon) -- work

So the Holy Spirit, through Paul, says there is no action taken by the individual which causes his salvation. According to the Bible, those who receive it don't even intend to receive it. If Ephesians 2 is not clear enough, Paul breaks it down again in Romans:

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy - Rom. 9:16

In spite of this some people claim the "Sinner's Prayer" or baptism or not listening to Led Zeppelin causes a person to be saved, but they do this in spite of what God says on the matter.

Paul was refering to "doing something alone, without God, so as to demand payment from God". That is what a wage is. When you do something, you earned a payment from your employer. Thus, in Romans 4:4, Paul explains the difference between a wage and a gift. Clearly, we cannot bind God to pay us a wage, for EVERYTHING that we have is a gift from God, whether supernatural or a natural gift. It is GOD who moves within us the desire and the will to do good. Continue reading Ephesians 2:10 - we are CREATED to perform good deeds. Thus, to say we should not do good deeds is to defeat God's Will!!!

Clearly, baptism is of consequence because it has power in the spiritual realm. It is GOD who "buries us with Christ", as per Romans 6. United with Christ by this act of being made a child of God, I am indeed enabled to do good, transformed and made holy. With God's abiding presence, it is not me doing good alone, it is a gift. Thus, faith also is a gift, given to man.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry, but the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus was about physical birth(it IS a water birth)and spirit birth,

Jesus clearly corrects Nicodemus initial mistake that Jesus is speaking about physical birth. The Greek word causing the confusion means both "again" and "above". Nicodemus' initial reaction was to the former definition. Jesus corrects that and states the later definition is His intent. One is born from above, spiritually. For what is flesh is from the flesh and what is spirit is from the spirit.

Regards

 

[Sam21]

I am not against water baptism,having been water baptized myself,however I am convinced that real salvation only occurs when an individual places complete faith in the PERSON of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. People are trusting in organizations, in water baptism, in sacraments, in good works, in clean living, and specially in the concept of christianity, however real salvation is given by God when our faith is exclusively in the actual PERSON of Jesus Christ. It is very personal, we trust the person of Christ and he saves us,not only at initial salvation but on a continual bases according to our trust in Him.

 

[Alabaster]

I don't quite agree with the once saved, always saved philosophy. We must still act in obedience to Christ if we expect to inherit eternal life.

So... we have to be good?

 

[Alabaster]

Ok. I can't speak to your personal faith walk, I'm only giving you the plain words of Scripture, which say we are not justified by faith alone and that water baptism saves.

Scripture doesn't teach that.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Romans 3:27 NLT
Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.

 

[Alabaster]

This is one of the more ridiculous interpretations I've heard. I know it's not yours, Alabaster, I know you are just repeating something that may "explain" the "water and Spirit" verses in light of sola-fide, but, please think about it for just a minute. For this to make sense, Jesus would have to be actually saying that a person has to be born to saved. Isn't that redundant, considering He's talking to a person who was born? It's like saying, "you must be alive and breathing to be saved." In this interpretation the water amounts to nothing.

Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Nicodemus obviously misunderstood Jesus. He didn't understand how a person could be re-born, so Jesus clarifies HOW TO BE REBORN, NOT BORN THE FIRST TIME:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

"Water and the Spirit" is how Jesus says we are born again (or "from above"). Nicodemus didn't ask how to be born "physically", he knew that. The context of the entire encounter is his misunderstanding of how a person is REBORN, and the answer is by "water and spirit".

Yep, we must be born first, of water, as in childbirth, and then we must be born again. Obviously Nicodemus got the message and was incredulous, wasn't he? It was the same kind of open-mouthed incredulity that many disciples of Jesus displayed when He instructed them about eating His body and drinking his blood! They thought He was talking about cannibalism, and were turned off and left Him.

 

[Alabaster]

I am not against water baptism,having been water baptized myself,however I am convinced that real salvation only occurs when an individual places complete faith in the PERSON of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. People are trusting in organizations, in water baptism, in sacraments, in good works, in clean living, and specially in the concept of christianity, however real salvation is given by God when our faith is exclusively in the actual PERSON of Jesus Christ. It is very personal, we trust the person of Christ and he saves us,not only at initial salvation but on a continual bases according to our trust in Him.

 

[dadof10]

Sorry, but the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus was about physical birth(it IS a water birth)and spirit birth,

So it's your take that one of the requirements of being born again ACCORDING TO OUR LORD HIMSELF is that a person has to be alive? Really? Is that really what He meant when He said born of water and Spirit?

so it is quite in the line of discussion for Jesus to say born of water and born of Spirit.

He didn't say "born of water AND BORN OF Spirit", He said born of water and Spirit, it's ONE birth, the new birth, not two. This is your mistake.

Born of mother and father (one birth). It was built of steel and wood (one creation). Written of experience and imagination (one book). As you can see by these (lame, I'm tired) examples, "water and Spirit" refers to one thing, new birth. If Jesus meant two different births, He might have phrased it like you did, "born of water and born of Spirit".

Also, this statement was made BEFORE the thief on the cross was saved, if salvation was only by water baptism first then that man could not have been saved.

Water baptism is the NORM for salvation. The example of the Thief is an extraordinary example. He was hours from death and he did the only thing he could. God looks for ways to save not condemn.