Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[dadof10]

Scripture doesn't teach that.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Romans 3:27 NLT
Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.

Yes it does.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you..., (1Peter (RSV) 3)

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". (James (RSV) 2)

Your turn...

 

[Scandinavian27]

Yep, we must be born first, of water, as in childbirth, and then we must be born again. Obviously Nicodemus got the message and was incredulous, wasn't he? It was the same kind of open-mouthed incredulity that many disciples of Jesus displayed when He instructed them about eating His body and drinking his blood! They thought He was talking about cannibalism, and were turned off and left Him.

A babies water baptism has no real place in what the scripture was implying though. It tells us that we need to be baptized for the remission of sins and a baby couldn't have sinned yet. Or at least I hope not! ;)

 

[dadof10]

Yep, we must be born first, of water, as in childbirth, and then we must be born again. Obviously Nicodemus got the message and was incredulous, wasn't he? It was the same kind of open-mouthed incredulity that many disciples of Jesus displayed when He instructed them about eating His body and drinking his blood! They thought He was talking about cannibalism, and were turned off and left Him.

We must be born first???? So it's a requirement of salvation to be born, then? Following this logic, I suppose babies who die in the womb are damned? Again I'll ask, do you really think our Lord meant this when He said "born of water and Spirit"?

 

[turnorburn]

This the best qualified answer I've found to date..

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


turnorburn

 

[dadof10]

This the best qualified answer I've found to date..

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


turnorburn

Answer to what question?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[turnorburn]

Baptism being necessary for salvation...

 

[RoadDebris]

Paul was refering to "doing something alone, without God, so as to demand payment from God". That is what a wage is. When you do something, you earned a payment from your employer. Thus, in Romans 4:4, Paul explains the difference between a wage and a gift. Clearly, we cannot bind God to pay us a wage, for EVERYTHING that we have is a gift from God, whether supernatural or a natural gift. It is GOD who moves within us the desire and the will to do good. Continue reading Ephesians 2:10 - we are CREATED to perform good deeds. Thus, to say we should not do good deeds is to defeat God's Will!!!

Clearly, baptism is of consequence because it has power in the spiritual realm. It is GOD who "buries us with Christ", as per Romans 6. United with Christ by this act of being made a child of God, I am indeed enabled to do good, transformed and made holy. With God's abiding presence, it is not me doing good alone, it is a gift. Thus, faith also is a gift, given to man.

Regards

Ergon means any kind of action at all, including intent. The scripture stipulates that there is no action whatsoever by the individual which causes his own salvation. According to the Bible it's totally passive. Why? Because before we are born again we are spiritually dead, and corpses can't do anything. So we don't save ourselves with a little help from God. We are saved from death by God alone. It's all about Him.

 

[Eventide]

I suppose babies who die in the womb are damned?

I don't believe this Dad.. does the Catholic church teach that babies are eternally damned if they are not baptized in water ?

 

[dadof10]

I don't believe this Dad.. does the Catholic church teach that babies are eternally damned if they are not baptized in water ?

Of course not, I was only demonstrating the absurdity of "water" = natural birth by using an absurd example. This was not meant to be taken seriously, although a case COULD be made that Scripture teaches this, right, IF you interpret the verse in that way?

 

[francisdesales]

Scripture doesn't teach that.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Romans 3:27 NLT
Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.

Where does it say in either verse that one is saved by faith ALONE?

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Of course not, I was only demonstrating the absurdity of "water" = natural birth by using an absurd example. This was not meant to be taken seriously, although a case COULD be made that Scripture teaches this, right, IF you interpret the verse in that way?

Thanks Dad, I wasn't sure.

 

[francisdesales]

Ergon means any kind of action at all, including intent. The scripture stipulates that there is no action whatsoever by the individual which causes his own salvation.

Agreed. Nothing I do alone can cause my salvation.

According to the Bible it's totally passive.

I'm afraid not. The bible does not state that salvation is totally passive. Over and over, men are told to "repent and believe", which are actions of men. God is not being told to repent and believe. Men are told this. Which of course means that men have the ability - with God's grace - to "repent and believe". God doesn't command us to do something we cannot do.

Why? Because before we are born again we are spiritually dead, and corpses can't do anything.

This is a common mistake - associating spiritual death with physical death. A person who is SPIRITUALLY dead is not incapable of doing good or of converting, according to this line of thought. Common experience does not verify that.

God Himself tells us this in Ezekiel...

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ez 18:21

Jesus also tells us this in the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15). TWICE, the son is called "dead". And yet, he returned to the Father after realizing his mistake... He did not act as you claim he should have, being 'dead'.

To be spiritually dead = not being in a loving relationship with God. Being in God is defined as being "alive".

So we don't save ourselves with a little help from God. We are saved from death by God alone. It's all about Him.

Without your response to God's initiative, you won't be saved.

Regards

 

[Sam21]

People in the NT were certainly water baptized to show their conversion, however we have cases where people were accepted by God without water baptism, the thief on the cross and the household of Cornilus. Because these events were a direct act of God,this completely removes the doctrine that God can only give the Holy Spirit during water baptism. Something else of interest, we have no record in the scriptures that the twelve apostles were ever water baptized,Jesus simply told them to follow Him.

 

[dadof10]

Ergon means any kind of action at all, including intent. The scripture stipulates that there is no action whatsoever by the individual which causes his own salvation. According to the Bible it's totally passive. Why? Because before we are born again we are spiritually dead, and corpses can't do anything. So we don't save ourselves with a little help from God. We are saved from death by God alone. It's all about Him.

Must a person have faith and "accept Jesus as Lord and Savior" to be saved? Are these two things "works" in your opinion?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

People in the NT were certainly water baptized to show their conversion, however we have cases where people were accepted by God without water baptism, the thief on the cross and the household of Cornilus. Because these events were a direct act of God,this completely removes the doctrine that God can only give the Holy Spirit during water baptism. Something else of interest, we have no record in the scriptures that the twelve apostles were ever water baptized,Jesus simply told them to follow Him.

Jesus was Himself baptized with water, and He and His disciples baptized in John 4. What's your point, that they were "saved" without it? I find it quite unlikely that Jesus was baptized, performed baptism, had His apostles baptize, commanded them to "go therefore...and baptize", yet they were not baptized themselves.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Sam21]

Jesus was Himself baptized with water, and He and His disciples baptized in John 4. What's your point, that they were "saved" without it? I find it quite unlikely that Jesus was baptized, performed baptism, had His apostles baptize, commanded them to "go therefore...and baptize", yet they were not baptized themselves.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

Jesus never baptized anyone according to scripture,and there is no record that Jesus commanded anyone to baptize in water until after his resurrection. John the baptist said, I baptize in water but Christ shall baptize in the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism is performed by God, water baptism is performed by man. A person who is water baptized can still be lost, however a person baptized in the Holy Spirit is saved. Note, there is nothing in the bible at all that teaches a person to have faith in water baptism as a saving agent,I am not against water baptism but I am against FAITH in water baptism, faith in water baptism can cause you to end up in hell because God only honors faith in His Son. If you have faith that water baptism has saved you than you are still in your sins. That is the danger in placing so much on water baptism rather than on Christ and His sacrifice and Holy Spirit baptism.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus was Himself baptized with water, and He and His disciples baptized in John 4.

John 4:1-2 NLT
Jesus knew the Pharisees had heard that he was baptizing and making more disciples than John (though Jesus himself didn’t baptize them—his disciples did).

 

[RoadDebris]

Where does it say in either verse that one is saved by faith ALONE?

Regards

Grace. We're saved by grace, though faith in Christ.

 

[RoadDebris]

Agreed. Nothing I do alone can cause my salvation.

That's not what Ephesians 2 says. That's what you say. Big difference. Again, look at the original Greek. Paul rules out any action by the person being saved; any at all.

I'm afraid not. The bible does not state that salvation is totally passive.

False. It says there is no action (ergon) taken by man which causes his own salvation in Eph. 2:8-9. And in Romans 9:16 the Holy Spirit, through Paul, rules out effort and desire. If someone's desire and effort are ruled out then only passivity is left.

God doesn't command us to do something we cannot do.

Is that true? Let's test it.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Mat. 5:48

This is a common mistake - associating spiritual death with physical death. A person who is SPIRITUALLY dead is not incapable of doing good or of converting, according to this line of thought. Common experience does not verify that.

The association is made by the Lord himself. It's a metaphor, by the way.

God Himself tells us this in Ezekiel...

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ez 18:21

So...you think people can keep all of God's statutes? Ever heard of a little book called Romans?

Jesus also tells us this in the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15). TWICE, the son is called "dead". And yet, he returned to the Father after realizing his mistake... He did not act as you claim he should have, being 'dead'.

Mixing your metaphors there.

Without your response to God's initiative, you won't be saved.

Not according to the Bible. A response is an action. Paul says our actions play no role in causing our salvation. Our good works are the effect, not the cause. You may not like it, but that's what it says.

 

[RoadDebris]

Must a person have faith and "accept Jesus as Lord and Savior" to be saved? Are these two things "works" in your opinion?

According to the Bible, faith is gift from God, not the effect of acceptance. People who are saved accept God as a matter of course, but acceptance is not the cause of that salvation. Any and all actions by man are ruled out in Ephesians and Romans.