Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[dadof10]

Hi Dad,

I understand your logic, but unfortunately this type of black and white logic doesn't work simply because there are too many variables. For instance, as discussed earlier, Cornelius and his household had received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water.

I agree there are variables. I never said ONLY water baptism saves, only that it is the (as you put it earlier) "normative" way God bestows His Spirit upon us and saves us. The washing of regeneration and all that....

So let me rephrase the question. When a person is baptized with water, he receives the HS at the same time, correct? So, when a person is baptized with water and receives the Spirit, is he at that time saved? If so, isn't is accurate to say that water baptism saves?

 

[farouk]

I agree there are variables. I never said ONLY water baptism saves, only that it is the (as you put it earlier) "normative" way God bestows His Spirit upon us and saves us. The washing of regeneration and all that....

So let me rephrase the question. When a person is baptized with water, he receives the HS at the same time, correct? So, when a person is baptized with water and receives the Spirit, is he at that time saved? If so, isn't is accurate to say that water baptism saves?

In John 3, the Lord Jesus says: 'Ye must be born again'. Baptism isn't mentioned.

 

[jasoncran]

ftr. i was saved and healed of bisexuality in 1996 and didnt cuss then, and WASNT water baptised till 1998. so tween then i was a child of SATAN??!!! there is no way i wanted to stop loving men. God convicted me and then i repented. so according to dad of 10 i wasnt regenarated.:bigfrown

its not that i didnt want to be baptised, just that the church i was with didnt have a way to baptise and had a pool built so that one could be baptised. they now use the ocean. i was also operating in the holy ghost and laying hands long before that occured.

 

[dadof10]

In John 3, the Lord Jesus says: 'Ye must be born again'. Baptism isn't mentioned.

Are you sure? Born of WATER and spirit isn't a reference to baptism?

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[farouk]

Are you sure? Born of WATER and spirit isn't a reference to baptism?

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Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'. The Word of God has a cleansing effect.

 

[Eventide]

Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'. The Word of God has a cleansing effect.

I would add an AMEN to this and also add that Peter teaches us that this is exactly how we are born again, by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever... and of course this results in living waters bubbling up within the believer..

 

[dadof10]

ftr. i was saved and healed of bisexuality in 1996 and didnt cuss then, and WASNT water baptised till 1998. so tween then i was a child of SATAN??!!! there is no way i wanted to stop loving men. God convicted me and then i repented. so according to dad of 10 i wasnt regenarated.:bigfrown

its not that i didnt want to be baptised, just that the church i was with didnt have a way to baptise and had a pool built so that one could be baptised. they now use the ocean. i was also operating in the holy ghost and laying hands long before that occured.

Sheesh Jason, there is a gray area between baptized and child of Satan... If you wanted to be baptized, then that would be "baptism of desire" and according to Catholic teaching, you would be regenerated. God looks for ways to save people, not condemn them. As I keep saying, baptism is the ordinary means of salvation, but there are other extraordinary means, some known only to God.



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[dadof10]

Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'. The Word of God has a cleansing effect.

You didn't address the question. John 6 says we are saved by WATER and spirit. Are you saying that Jesus is talking about the word (whatever you mean by that) when he says "water and spirit "? Read on. What did Jesus do right after He made His statement to Nicodemus.?

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[dadof10]

I would add an AMEN to this and also add that Peter teaches us that this is exactly how we are born again, by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever... and of course this results in living waters bubbling up within the believer..

Peter also says water baptism saves...and were back...

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[jasoncran]

Sheesh Jason, there is a gray area between baptized and child of Satan... If you wanted to be baptized, then that would be "baptism of desire" and according to Catholic teaching, you would be regenerated. God looks for ways to save people, not condemn them. As I keep saying, baptism is the ordinary means of salvation, but there are other extraordinary means, some known only to God.



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leave to the rcc to make something simple.i disagree with baptism being salvinical on the idea that the churches often cant baptism all at once. is it a command yes, and one we should obey but i cant say its point of hell or heaven but rather an outward appearence of what is there.

heres one for you, if one gets baptised and fall ways must he be baptised again if he returns to the lord. he walked away and is in needed of cleansing, and was just a lost as he was before so his regenerations wasnt permament.

 

[Eventide]

Peter also says water baptism saves...and were back...

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

IMO Peter isn't saying that water baptism saves.. and if water baptism DID save us, then why in the world would the Apostle to the gentiles (Paul) write to the church and tell them that God did not send him to baptize.. but to preach to gospel..

I would say it's because that's what DOES save... the gospel is the power of God unto salvation... and that's where faith comes from.. by hearing the word of God.

Baptism is for those who already believe.. and that's what WE must do to be saved.. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

IMO Peter isn't saying that water baptism saves.. and if water baptism DID save us, then why in the world would the Apostle to the gentiles (Paul) write to the church and tell them that God did not send him to baptize.. but to preach to gospel..

I would say it's because that's what DOES save... the gospel is the power of God unto salvation... and that's where faith comes from.. by hearing the word of God.

Baptism is for those who already believe.. and that's what WE must do to be saved.. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen...the truth!

 

[jasoncran]

paul baptised a few. he was very picky on who he baptised, yet i seriously doubt his missions were fruitless. didnt he and silas lead the jailer and his whole house to salavation, yet paul didnt mention he baptising them.

what about others?

 

[Sam21]

Peter also says water baptism saves...and were back...

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

Peter said that water baptism was a "like figure" of Noah being saved by going through the flood and that as Noah was saved through the flood we are saved through baptism(baptism does now save us). Now lets pause for just a moment before we finish the rest of the thought of Peter, the NT is clear that we are saved by FAITH in Christ NOT by being dunked under water,so Peter just made a very misleading statement UNLESS he explains WHAT HE MEANT. Here is the rest of the thought of Peter about water baptism, Peter said, baptism does now save us NOT(absolute negative)of flesh(the body being water baptized)a putting away of filth(the body being washed of filth in the water)BUT the answer of a good conscience(correct heart condition toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ(faith in what God has provided through Christ.
So Peter explains what he meant when he said that water baptism saves us, Peter was saying NOT the physical act of being dunked under water because all that can do of itself is wash filth off the flesh(like taking a bath)then Peter further qualifies what he meant by saying BUT(here is what really saves) a good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ(faith in Christ).
If one reads the NT carefully then one can see that water baptism of itself was nothing but a symbol of conversion, to actually have faith in the symbol is the depth of folly, our faith has to be 100% in Christ and His sacrifice or we will not be forgiven period.

 

[cyberjosh]

My opinion is that many could be baptized in the Spirit at that time but they are simply not taught about it, and in their ignorance, they walk away none the wiser, and as a result, they do not begin to walk in the power of their giftings, which is the evidence of the anointing.

That I certainly do agree with! My experience was along those lines as well, in which after having been a Christian for many years God one day revealed to me the exceeding power [dunamis] of his grace through His Holy Spirit toward me that was already present and at my disposal. As many others I had only seen grace from the perspective of forgiveness alone at first (and certainly this is the first aspect of grace that we learn of as a Christian - having had our sins graciously forgiven), but when I also learned that grace was empowering and enables us to live a victorious and obedient Christian life (as empowered and strengthened by the Holy Spirit amidst our weaknesses) something amazing opened up in my life from that point on. It was powerful and liberating. I did not speak in tongues that day or since, but the awareness of the power of God available for our sanctification and living out the Christ-following life laid out before us forever changed my life. The awareness of it changed everything. That's why I think each person has it but may not be walking in the power of the Spirit bestowed on them because of, as you say, a lack of awareness of ignorance of what they have been given by God. Nonetheless I don't really want to dispute the "given to all vs. to some" aspect of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I do believe that all Christians have access to that power (as sons and daughters) regardless of whether or not it is to be associated with having received that baptism or not (which I am willing to reconsider as I study further). But it certainly is comforting knowing that God gives us each that power by the Holy Spirit to follow after his Son Jesus in His strength and not our own, isn't it?

God Bless!

~Josh

 

[Alabaster]

That I certainly do agree with! My experience was along those lines as well, in which after having been a Christian for many years God one day revealed to me the exceeding power [dunamis] of his grace through His Holy Spirit toward me that was already present and at my disposal. As many others I had only seen grace from the perspective of forgiveness alone at first (and certainly this is the first aspect of grace that we learn of as a Christian - having had our sins graciously forgiven), but when I also learned that grace was empowering and enables us to live a victorious and obedient Christian life (as empowered and strengthened by the Holy Spirit amidst our weaknesses) something amazing opened up in my life from that point on. It was powerful and liberating. I did not speak in tongues that day or since, but the awareness of the power of God available for our sanctification and living out the Christ-following life laid out before us forever changed my life. The awareness of it changed everything. That's why I think each person has it but may not be walking in the power of the Spirit bestowed on them because of, as you say, a lack of awareness of ignorance of what they have been given by God. Nonetheless I don't really want to dispute the "given to all vs. to some" aspect of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I do believe that all Christians have access to that power (as sons and daughters) regardless of whether or not it is to be associated with having received that baptism or not (which I am willing to reconsider as I study further). But it certainly is comforting knowing that God gives us each that power by the Holy Spirit to follow after his Son Jesus in His strength and not our own, isn't it?

God Bless!

~Josh

Yessirree! I am so glad you understand me.

 

[dadof10]

is it a command yes, and one we should obey but i cant say its point of hell or heaven but rather an outward appearence of what is there.

Someone needs to show me where Scripture teaches that baptism is merely an external appearance of an already saved person. I've asked Alabaster and Vic, neither has addressed the point. If you think that's what was taught by the early Church, chapter and verse, baby.

heres one for you, if one gets baptised and fall ways must he be baptised again if he returns to the lord. he walked away and is in needed of cleansing, and was just a lost as he was before so his regenerations wasnt permament.

Cleansing is one of the attributes of baptism, not the only one. As scripture says, there is one baptism. There are other methods for, as you put it, cleansing and regenerating. Baptism isn't the only one. Repentance and confession are the ordinary means of "reversion" back into the Church.

 

[jasoncran]

Someone needs to show me where Scripture teaches that baptism is merely an external appearance of an already saved person. I've asked Alabaster and Vic, neither has addressed the point. If you think that's what was taught by the early Church, chapter and verse, baby.



Cleansing is one of the attributes of baptism, not the only one. As scripture says, there is one baptism. There are other methods for, as you put it, cleansing and regenerating. Baptism isn't the only one. Repentance and confession are the ordinary means of "reversion" back into the Church.

ah yes you have the early church fathers, the ones that taught believers baptism right?

so if one doesnt repent first and is water baptised they are? still a devil. if one has repented, and as you just stated baptism of desire then what was the point of actually doing the deed. its a reflection as we died with when the lord was died and raised again.

on the later, kinda odd then aint it? you get dirty again and DONT need to be cleansed again, so if one regressed to a far worse state, a simple repentence is needed, but yet not good enough for the first time.

can you explain why paul didnt baptise but three men? surely he led alot to the lord.

 

[dadof10]

IMO Peter isn't saying that water baptism saves.. and if water baptism DID save us, then why in the world would the Apostle to the gentiles (Paul) write to the church and tell them that God did not send him to baptize.. but to preach to gospel..

You answered your own question. Paul's ministry was preaching, not necessarily baptizing, although he did baptize a few. Surely you have people within your local church with different ministries?

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1Corinthians (RSV) 12)

Does this make one ministry more important than others? If your pastor delegated preaching to a person that was more charismatic than he was, would that mean that your pastor didn't believe that preaching was important? Salvific? Of course not! Paul's ministry was preaching and founding communities. This fact doesn't speak either way about his view on baptism.

Baptism is for those who already believe.. .

Again, Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Eventide]

You answered your own question. Paul's ministry was preaching, not necessarily baptizing, although he did baptize a few. Surely you have people within your local church with different ministries?

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1Corinthians (RSV) 12)

Does this make one ministry more important than others? If your pastor delegated preaching to a person that was more charismatic than he was, would that mean that your pastor didn't believe that preaching was important? Salvific? Of course not! Paul's ministry was preaching and founding communities. This fact doesn't speak either way about his view on baptism.

I tried to make a simple point Dad.. being that IF water baptism WAS absolutely without question NECESSARY for SALVATION, then why in the world would Paul write that God didn't send him to baptize.. that would be insane if water baptism IS NECESSARY for salvation... wouldn't you agree..?

Again, Chapter and verse, please.

Read your bible... each and EVERY CASE of water baptism in scripture involves BELIEVERS... not one unbeliever baptized.