Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[francisdesales]

Grace. We're saved by grace, though faith in Christ.

I don't see faith alone in that answer, either.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

A response is an action. Paul says our actions play no role in causing our salvation. Our good works are the effect, not the cause. You may not like it, but that's what it says.

If I take your idea to its logical conclusion, God simultaneously desires all men to be saved, WHILE picking and choosing SOME men, without any response from them, to be of the elect and of eternal life.

I don't see the point of the Bible, if God throws darts at a phone book and picks some, while flushing the rest into hell, based upon absolutely nothing that men do. WHY BOTHER knowing God's will, since God has already determined whether I will go to heaven/hell based upon NOTHING I DO!!!

Sorry, this is not Christianity. It is pagan determinism. It was such a thing that people of the first few centuries were clamouring to ESCAPE from by becoming Christian.

This is not the Good News. It is REPENT AND BELIEVE. YOU repent. YOU believe. BOTH are responses of men. God is not commanded to make someone repent or make someone believe. By power given to man by God, we are enabled to do both.

Regards

 

[RoadDebris]

I don't see faith alone in that answer, either.

Regards

It doesn't say "Christ alone" either, but by your logic we can be saved by other gods.

 

[RoadDebris]

If I take your idea to its logical conclusion, God simultaneously desires all men to be saved, WHILE picking and choosing SOME men, without any response from them, to be of the elect and of eternal life.

If I take your idea to it's logical conclusion, either all men are saved or God is disappointed in His wishes. Both are unscriptual conclusions.

As to picking and choosing, the Bible is full of examples of God choosing irrespective of any character traits of those chosen and those who aren't (e.g. Abraham, Isaac, Esau, Moses, Pharaoh, etc.).

I don't see the point of the Bible, if God throws darts at a phone book and picks some, while flushing the rest into hell, based upon absolutely nothing that men do. WHY BOTHER knowing God's will, since God has already determined whether I will go to heaven/hell based upon NOTHING I DO!!!

Be that as it may, the Bible is not subject to your good pleasure. Why do the saved seek God's will? Because He changes our will at salvation so that we desire the things He desires. We want to, that's why. Just because the Bible says you can not earn salvation by the slightest degree doesn't mean that you shouldn't work for God.

Sorry, this is not Christianity. It is pagan determinism. It was such a thing that people of the first few centuries were clamouring to ESCAPE from by becoming Christian.

Says you.

This is not the Good News. It is REPENT AND BELIEVE. YOU repent. YOU believe. BOTH are responses of men. God is not commanded to make someone repent or make someone believe. By power given to man by God, we are enabled to do both.

Not according to the Bible. The Holy Spirit, through Paul, says no-one who has not been born again seeks God:

there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. - Rom. 3:11

 

[dadof10]

Jesus never baptized anyone according to scripture,and there is no record that Jesus commanded anyone to baptize in water until after his resurrection.

OK, so who was baptizing in John 4? Was it Jesus or His Apostles? Scripture is vague, but does it really matter? Jesus at least COMMISSIONED this WATER baptism, right? He also COMMISSIONED His followers to "Go forth ....Baptizing in the name of the Father..." I'm not sure why it's significant to you that this happened after the resurrection. Wasn't He baptized Himself? If you had to make a guess, do you think the Apostles were baptized or not?

John the baptist said, I baptize in water but Christ shall baptize in the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism is performed by God, water baptism is performed by man.

But COMMANDED by Jesus. "Go therefore and BAPTIZE..." Jesus is obviously talking about WATER BAPTISM here.

A person who is water baptized can still be lost, however a person baptized in the Holy Spirit is saved. Note, there is nothing in the bible at all that teaches a person to have faith in water baptism as a saving agent

Except all the verses I posted above "Baptism, which now saves you..." "Born again of water and Spirit...", you know, those...

I'll ask again...Where are the verses that call baptism a merely symbolic act?

I am not against water baptism but I am against FAITH in water baptism, faith in water baptism can cause you to end up in hell because God only honors faith in His Son. If you have faith that water baptism has saved you than you are still in your sins. That is the danger in placing so much on water baptism rather than on Christ and His sacrifice and Holy Spirit baptism.

Again, baptism is the APPLICATION of the Graces of Christ, so it's not us "putting faith" in baptism. NO ONE is pitting baptism against Christ. This is a straw-dog. We put our faith in Christ alone, the One who commissioned water baptism and COMMANDED His followers to perform this salvific sacrament.

 

[dadof10]

According to the Bible, faith is gift from God, not the effect of acceptance. People who are saved accept God as a matter of course, but acceptance is not the cause of that salvation. Any and all actions by man are ruled out in Ephesians and Romans.

And can a person lose this salvation? Do we have the free will to reject God either before or after we are "saved"?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[francisdesales]

It doesn't say "Christ alone" either, but by your logic we can be saved by other gods.

Elsewhere, the Bible says there is no other name by which we are saved then Christ. Nice try.

Elsewhere, the Bible says we are NOT saved by faith alone.

You got some explaining to do to convince me that I should insert the word "alone" next to faith ANYWHERE in the Bible when discussing eternal salvation.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

If I take your idea to it's logical conclusion, either all men are saved or God is disappointed in His wishes. Both are unscriptual conclusions.

I didn't say all men are saved. I said God desires all men to be saved. That is a direct citation from the Scriptures. As to "God being disappointed", I think you are forgeting that God has other desires that co-exist with "God desires all men to be saved", such as God desires man to "repent and believe", which necessitates that man have a free will choice to accept or reject the offer of grace.

As to picking and choosing, the Bible is full of examples of God choosing irrespective of any character traits of those chosen and those who aren't (e.g. Abraham, Isaac, Esau, Moses, Pharaoh, etc.).

For different reasons, not for eternal salvation or condemnation. In addition, each of these men made choices that God foresaw. Their free will was not removed. Pharoah did not have to chase the Israelites, nor did Esau have to give up his birthright...

Be that as it may, the Bible is not subject to your good pleasure.

I didn't say it was. I said it loses its value to man, IF God does as you say. There is no point in reading it, except for the curious historian. Who cares how one leads their life, worships God, loves others, and follows in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, since, as you say, we can do nothing of value in God's eyes...

Why do the saved seek God's will?

How do you even know you are saved? God didn't tell you. Maybe you are just kidding yourself, since nothing you do proves you were saved. Even doing God's will doesn't mean you are saved, according to your logic.

Because He changes our will at salvation so that we desire the things He desires.

Again, how do you know you are saved?

Says you.

Says the dictionary if you look up "determinism" in a philosophy book.

Not according to the Bible. The Holy Spirit, through Paul, says no-one who has not been born again seeks God.

First, you misunderstand Romans 3. It is not Paul's desire to make a universal statement about all men, since Romans 2 tells us that some ARE saved by their good deeds. Romans 3 is an accusation against proud Jews who think they are saved because they are doing "works of the Law" without any apparent conversion of the heart. Thus, he cites David's accusations against JEWS who are persecuting him, evil, wicked ones. In some of these same Psalms, David also points out that the righteous man DOES exist. David is saying that the WICKED man does not turn to God, not that ALL men do not turn to God. Experience disproves that. You misunderstand the source of Paul's OT citations in Romans 3, and thus lose the whole point.

In addition, you are presuming that when I say "you repent", that I mean that you are unmoved by God and it is all your own will (SO THAT YOU CAN BOAST - which you ignored in Eph 2:8-9) that makes this decision to repent. That is an incorrect presumption, as Phil 2:12-13 clearly points out the interaction between God and man when man repents or believes or does any good work.

Back to Ephesians 2, Paul's discussion on "work" is in regards to boasting, not an all-inclusive discussion that ANYTHING that man does, moved by God or not, is of any value. Jesus said we must believe. We presume that God is moving us to believe, but Jesus does not say "hope and pray that God hits your name when He throws the salvation dart at your phone book". He understands the interaction between God and man.

YOU Repent and believe. But not that it is something you can boast about, since it is God who works within you the desire to repent and to believe... Do you see the interaction here?


Regards

 

[RoadDebris]

And can a person lose this salvation? Do we have the free will to reject God either before or after we are "saved"?

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." - John 10:27-29

 

[RoadDebris]

Elsewhere, the Bible says there is no other name by which we are saved then Christ. Nice try.

Elsewhere, the Bible says we are NOT saved by faith alone.

You got some explaining to do to convince me that I should insert the word "alone" next to faith ANYWHERE in the Bible when discussing eternal salvation.

Regards

And elsewhere is says man's desire or efforts play no role in causing his salvation. By the way, God only has to say something once for it to have meaning.

 

[RoadDebris]

I didn't say all men are saved.

And since I didn't say you did, that's a straw man. I referenced your "logic".

I said God desires all men to be saved. That is a direct citation from the Scriptures. As to "God being disappointed", I think you are forgeting that God has other desires that co-exist with "God desires all men to be saved", such as God desires man to "repent and believe", which necessitates that man have a free will choice to accept or reject the offer of grace.

Yes he has other desires. His ultimate desire is not that all men should be saved or they would all be saved. As to repentance causing salvation, that is already ruled out by Ephesians 2 and Romans 9. The Bible does not contradict itself, Arminianism notwithstanding.

For different reasons, not for eternal salvation or condemnation. In addition, each of these men made choices that God foresaw. Their free will was not removed. Pharoah did not have to chase the Israelites, nor did Esau have to give up his birthright...

Wha? Abraham's calling wasn't one to eternal salvation? According to the Bible Abraham put his faith in God by the grace of God, just as we do.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Romans 4:2-3

I didn't say it was. I said it loses its value to man, IF God does as you say. There is no point in reading it, except for the curious historian. Who cares how one leads their life, worships God, loves others, and follows in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, since, as you say, we can do nothing of value in God's eyes...

It may loose it's appeal to you, but it's value is set by the objective authority on the matter, God himself. God tells believers to read it and because they are saved they have the ability to care about it and to do as He instructs them.

As to doing things that God values, I made no claim that Christians are unable to do such things. I'm saying no man can move himself toward salvation by a single inch. Salvation is strictly by grace, through faith, and that faith is a gift from God (see Eph. 2).

How do you even know you are saved? God didn't tell you. Maybe you are just kidding yourself, since nothing you do proves you were saved. Even doing God's will doesn't mean you are saved, according to your logic.

Ever read the book of James?

Again, how do you know you are saved?

Again, ever read James?

Says the dictionary if you look up "determinism" in a philosophy book.

You may label predestination "paganism" but that is what the Bible teaches. Could Peter have chosen not to deny Christ three times after Jesus told him that is what he was going to do? Answer if you are able.

Speaking of philosophy, I suggest you check out my favorite philosopher, Dr. R. C. Sproul.

First, you misunderstand Romans 3. It is not Paul's desire to make a universal statement about all men, since Romans 2 tells us that some ARE saved by their good deeds.

Utterly false. Since no man except Christ is sinless, and since any one sin is enough to merit damnation, no man is worthy of salvation. If you are claiming otherwise then you are preaching a counterfeit gospel.

Romans 3 is an accusation against proud Jews who think they are saved because they are doing "works of the Law" without any apparent conversion of the heart. Thus, he cites David's accusations against JEWS who are persecuting him, evil, wicked ones. In some of these same Psalms, David also points out that the righteous man DOES exist. David is saying that the WICKED man does not turn to God, not that ALL men do not turn to God. Experience disproves that. You misunderstand the source of Paul's OT citations in Romans 3, and thus lose the whole point.

All who turn to God do so by the grace of God, not by virtue of their own character (see Romans 4).

In addition, you are presuming that when I say "you repent", that I mean that you are unmoved by God and it is all your own will (SO THAT YOU CAN BOAST - which you ignored in Eph 2:8-9) that makes this decision to repent. That is an incorrect presumption, as Phil 2:12-13 clearly points out the interaction between God and man when man repents or believes or does any good work.

And that repentance is ruled out as the cause of salvation in Romans and Ephesians. God alone is the cause of our salvation. You may choose to put your faith in yourself, but I'll stick with God.

Back to Ephesians 2, Paul's discussion on "work" is in regards to boasting, not an all-inclusive discussion that ANYTHING that man does, moved by God or not, is of any value. Jesus said we must believe. We presume that God is moving us to believe, but Jesus does not say "hope and pray that God hits your name when He throws the salvation dart at your phone book". He understands the interaction between God and man.

Why shouldn't we boast? According to the Holy Spirit, through Paul, because we do not cause our own salvation to take effect. No ergon.

YOU Repent and believe. But not that it is something you can boast about, since it is God who works within you the desire to repent and to believe... Do you see the interaction here?

One of us sees the scriptural interaction and it isn't you.

 

[francisdesales]

And elsewhere is says man's desire or efforts play no role in causing his salvation. By the way, God only has to say something once for it to have meaning.

That's not the way it is understood by Christians, the Apostles, or Christ, all who are insistent that man repent and believe...

As to your second sentence, non sequitar.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes he has other desires. His ultimate desire is not that all men should be saved or they would all be saved.

God desires a relationship with man. That seems obvious from the entire theme of Scriptures, agreed? Now, to have a true relationship requires a free will response from the beloved. Thus, the call to "repent and believe". And for man to accept the call means men must also have the ability to reject the call. Yes, God desires that we be saved, but He also desires to have a true relationship with man.

As to repentance causing salvation, that is already ruled out by Ephesians 2 and Romans 9. The Bible does not contradict itself, Arminianism notwithstanding.

You are misreading Ephesians 2, which speaks of anything we do without God - so as to boast - as being insufficient to earn salvation. But in Christ, all things are possible, to include winning salvation. Doesn't Jesus state that?

I am not Arminian, so don't bother placing me in your little box...

Wha? Abraham's calling wasn't one to eternal salvation? According to the Bible Abraham put his faith in God by the grace of God, just as we do.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Romans 4:2-3

Genesis 12 is not a "calling onto eternal salvation."

I'm saying no man can move himself toward salvation by a single inch. Salvation is strictly by grace, through faith, and that faith is a gift from God (see Eph. 2).

Agreed, no man can move HIMSELF towards salvation.

But salvation is also through faith WORKING in love. It is also secured in hope. It is certainly NOT "faith alone". The sense you are missing is that we cannot obligate God to pay us a wage, NOT that a person who loves another has no value when one is judged. Have you read Matthew 25? Three parables on gaining eternal life. The parables are not meant to be taken that we can earn our way by doing things, but there is indeed a sense that God values our free response to the call.

Ever read the book of James?

Yea, it says we are not saved by faith alone, but by works... Thanks.

You may label predestination "paganism" but that is what the Bible teaches.

I didn't say "predestination" is paganism. But your definition of predestination is indeed determinism or fate.

Could Peter have chosen not to deny Christ three times after Jesus told him that is what he was going to do? Answer if you are able.

The question should be whether God MADE Peter deny Jesus. Not whether Peter would or not. God already sees that Peter would, so it is impossible for Peter not to have denied Christ. But did God MAKE Peter deny Jesus? Of course not. If you think God did, than you have left the realm of Christianity with the charge that God causes sin.

Speaking of philosophy, I suggest you check out my favorite philosopher, Dr. R. C. Sproul.

I find him wanting. Not impressed.

Utterly false. Since no man except Christ is sinless, and since any one sin is enough to merit damnation, no man is worthy of salvation. If you are claiming otherwise then you are preaching a counterfeit gospel.

First of all, where does the Bible state that a person must be absolutely sinless to obtain eternal life? Where did you find that verse from??? Neither Jew nor Christian believes this - which is why we rely on a merciful God, knowing full well that we are NOT perfect. However, we don't require ourselves to be perfect because we trust that God does not DEMAND perfection from us.

Unless you are trying to EARN your way to heaven, perfection is not required. Thus, any man whom God forgives of sin is "worthy", by the very fact that God is forgiving sins. Nowhere have I suggested that anyone can earn salvation by their OWN works.

All who turn to God do so by the grace of God, not by virtue of their own character (see Romans 4).

Yes, the key word is THEIR OWN. I have never said otherwise.

It appears with you, it is either "God does everything" or "man does everything". As usual in these discussions with "Calvinists", I find they are not prepared to accept a third alternative, the biblical notion of synergy, found in both the OT and the NT...

And that repentance is ruled out as the cause of salvation in Romans and Ephesians.

Without it, you won't be saved. It is a necessary response. Whether it is the direct cause or not is inconsequential, except to people splitting hairs.

God alone is the cause of our salvation.

Theologians who are more particular will look at "immediate cause", "remote cause", etc... Yes, God alone is the cause of our salvation. That is not the only "cause" of salvation, according to Scriptures. The Bible also notes repentance, obedience to His commandments, hope, love and faith as operative to obtaining eternal life. ABSOLUTELY necessary. God commands these things - which suggests that at some level, we are responsible for and able to do these things - and God provides the necessary graces. Thus, these responses are never "our own"...

You may choose to put your faith in yourself, but I'll stick with God.

You may choose to stop making such self-congratulatory statements. Which, of course, is the point. You CAN choose....

Why shouldn't we boast? According to the Holy Spirit, through Paul, because we do not cause our own salvation to take effect. No ergon.

We boast in Christ, not in our own works, done without God.

One of us sees the scriptural interaction and it isn't you.

YOU repent and believe. You don't have an answer for that, do you...

 

[Pizzaguy]

His ultimate desire is not that all men should be saved or they would all be saved.

How do you know that? There are MANY things going on here on earth that are not part of His will.

God did not make us as robots or animals, that is, that we are driven to love or follow Him by instinct!

 

[Sam21]

Just a question for Road D, WHY do YOU personally believe that you are saved? You certainly have to recognize that just because that you decide that you are one of the elect does not make you one of the elect. Certainly there would be people who believe they are one of the elect and are not,so what qualifies you to be one of the elect?

 

[jasoncran]

rc spoul is no longer reformed in his theology.

i dont believe god makes men just to let them be damned for his glory.

 

[RoadDebris]

That's not the way it is understood by Christians, the Apostles, or Christ, all who are insistent that man repent and believe...

Regards

News flash: Paul was an apostle. He wrote a few letters to a few churches in which he says that's exactly how he understood it.

 

[Sam21]

rc spoul is no longer reformed in his theology.

i dont believe god makes men just to let them be damned for his glory.

Amen to that,God is not willing for any to perish,that is what the bible says. Note,God came to Cain and gave him a chance to get it right, does that sound like God wanted Cain to fail and be condemned?

 

[RoadDebris]

God desires a relationship with man. That seems obvious from the entire theme of Scriptures, agreed?

Agreed.

Now, to have a true relationship requires a free will response from the beloved.

False premise. Man has a will, but it's not free. Not only will you not find the term "free will" in scripture, it says man is a slave to sin or to Chirst:

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. - Rom. 6:22

Thus, the call to "repent and believe". And for man to accept the call means men must also have the ability to reject the call. Yes, God desires that we be saved, but He also desires to have a true relationship with man.

False presupposition that man must do something to cause his own salvation. Eph. 2 and Rom. 9 rule that out absolutely.

You are misreading Ephesians 2, which speaks of anything we do without God - so as to boast - as being insufficient to earn salvation. But in Christ, all things are possible, to include winning salvation. Doesn't Jesus state that?

In my opinion it's pretty intellectually dishonest to say you don't believe in sola fide because the word "only" isn't in the text and then to add "without God" when you feel the need to bolster your doctrinal view. The Holy Spirit, through Paul, makes an absolute statement in Ephesians 2:9. Absolute statements have no exceptions.

I am not Arminian, so don't bother placing me in your little box...

So say many Arminians, even while believing in at least four of the five points of Arminianism. How many of them do you accept?

Genesis 12 is not a "calling onto eternal salvation."

According to God the Holy Spirit, through Paul, it is.

And now we come to the contradiction:

Agreed, no man can move HIMSELF towards salvation.

But salvation is also through faith WORKING in love. It is also secured in hope. It is certainly NOT "faith alone". The sense you are missing is that we cannot obligate God to pay us a wage, NOT that a person who loves another has no value when one is judged. Have you read Matthew 25? Three parables on gaining eternal life. The parables are not meant to be taken that we can earn our way by doing things, but there is indeed a sense that God values our free response to the call.

One, Paul says there is no work performed by man which causes his salvation and b) he tells us our faith is a gift from God, not the product of our will.

Yea, it says we are not saved by faith alone, but by works... Thanks.

Is it honest to mix the sense of the word?

I didn't say "predestination" is paganism. But your definition of predestination is indeed determinism or fate.

That's a mischaracterization of the facts. It's not "my" definition. My view of predestination is in line with Paul's, which is in line with the Objective Standard.

The question should be whether God MADE Peter deny Jesus. Not whether Peter would or not. God already sees that Peter would, so it is impossible for Peter not to have denied Christ. But did God MAKE Peter deny Jesus? Of course not. If you think God did, than you have left the realm of Christianity with the charge that God causes sin.

You're distorting double-predestination.

The distortion of double predestination looks like this: There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God WORKS in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation (destinare ad peccatum) and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative. In the case of the elect, regeneration is the monergistic work of God. In the case of the reprobate, sin and degeneration are the monergistic work of God. Stated another way, we can establish a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry. We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.
This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers. - R.C. Sproul

I find him wanting. Not impressed.

Isn't that a quote from Fran Tarkenton speaking about Stabler after Super Bowl XI?

First of all, where does the Bible state that a person must be absolutely sinless to obtain eternal life?

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Mat. 5:48

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. - James 2:10

Since no-one except Christ has ever lived a sinless life, none of us are qualified to be accepted into heaven. That's why we all need a savior. The saved are not accepted in His presence by virtue of their own virtue. Their accepted because they are in Christ and their sins are forgiven.

Nowhere have I suggested that anyone can earn salvation by their OWN works.

Just because you are delusional about it doesn't mean it's not true. You claim salvation is caused by the works of man, even though you also deny that you do any such thing.

Yes, the key word is THEIR OWN. I have never said otherwise.

You claim salvation is subject to man's decision to accept it. If this is the case then there has to be a reason, a cause for that decision. It's either due to their intellect in discovering the truth or their wisdom in discerning it and their superior self-control in moving toward it. To deny this is to be intellectually dishonest.

It appears with you, it is either "God does everything" or "man does everything". As usual in these discussions with "Calvinists", I find they are not prepared to accept a third alternative, the biblical notion of synergy, found in both the OT and the NT...

Too bad there's not more synergy between the intellect of Armenians and rational thought.

Without it, you won't be saved. It is a necessary response. Whether it is the direct cause or not is inconsequential, except to people splitting hairs.

Paul didn't seem to think so when he was being inspired to write Romans and Ephesians. In fact, all rational people find causation to be pretty compelling. It's the only way we finite creatures can discern anything. That you have to deny it's value says a lot about your theology (IMO).

Yes, God alone is the cause of our salvation.

EUREKA!

That is not the only "cause" of salvation, according to Scriptures.

If God alone is the cause for our salvation then something else can't also be the cause. Now I know why you don't care for Dr. Sproul. You have no regard for the Law of Contradiction.

The Bible also notes repentance, obedience to His commandments, hope, love and faith as operative to obtaining eternal life. ABSOLUTELY necessary. God commands these things - which suggests that at some level, we are responsible for and able to do these things - and God provides the necessary graces. Thus, these responses are never "our own"...

Since the Holy Spirit, through Paul, rules out any work by man as the cause of his salvation, you are once again violating the Law of Contradiction. Irrational ideologies are never valid.

You may choose to stop making such self-congratulatory statements. Which, of course, is the point. You CAN choose....

Since my faith is a gift from God, not the product of my own character, it's not self-congratulatory. It's all about God.

YOU repent and believe. You don't have an answer for that, do you...

It's the effect, not the cause.

 

[RoadDebris]

Amen to that,God is not willing for any to perish,that is what the bible says. Note,God came to Cain and gave him a chance to get it right, does that sound like God wanted Cain to fail and be condemned?

Note: God came to Pharaoh and hardened his heart in accordance with the purpose He created him for: destruction (see Rom. 9).