Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[jasoncran]

Note: God came to Pharaoh and hardened his heart in accordance with the purpose He created him for: destruction (see Rom. 9).

an entire doctrine based on that? i counter with cain. he told him that if he did that what right in sacrifice and to repent.

why would god do that, its disengious to say God doesnt do evil, yes i know you dont say that but theres that logical issue you have a reconcile with. God made peter deny him? or was peter not one of the lord when he sinned in that manner?

 

[RoadDebris]

an entire doctrine based on that? i counter with cain. he told him that if he did that what right in sacrifice and to repent.

On that? You mean the word of God? Yeah, that's what it's based on.

why would god do that, its disengious to say God doesnt do evil, yes i know you dont say that but theres that logical issue you have a reconcile with. God made peter deny him? or was peter not one of the lord when he sinned in that manner?

Jason, predestination doesn't violate one's will. Did Pharaoh want to rebel against God. Yes he did. Did Peter want to deny Christ? When it came down to it, yes he did.

 

[francisdesales]

News flash: Paul was an apostle. He wrote a few letters to a few churches in which he says that's exactly how he understood it.

Indeed, he did.

And it isn't Calvinism.

 

[francisdesales]

YOU repent and believe. You don't have an answer for that, do you...

It's the effect, not the cause.

I'm afraid that "YOU repent and believe" is a command, not an effect of a cause...

One must approach this topic carefully, using ALL of Scriptures. Yes, God grants us grace, without which, we cannot repent and believe. However, the bible also tells us that we can reject that grace freely offered by God.

Perhaps the parable of the sower and the seed would help you to understand how nature and grace work together... In other words, synergy. Remember, we are dealing with a God who desires a relationship of love with man.

Without the seed, there is no possibility of fruit.

Without proper soil, there is no possibility of lasting fruit. The parable makes it clear that "soil" is man's response - at some level effected by God (Phil 2:12-13), so it is not an opportunity to boast (Eph 2:8-9/Rom 4:4), but it is indeed MAN'S response, not God's.

Regards

 

[Pard]

So lets pretend... Everyone is wiped off the face of the earth and there is only a single man left. That man finds the Bible and reads it and is like "Man, I want to be a Christian." So he studies it and after a time he has a real good grasp of the Bible and all the things that go into being a Christian. And he agrees with some of you and decides that baptism is a must in order to be saved, you're telling me he is screwed because he has no one to baptize him?

 

[Sam21]

Drag me out and stone me folks,but I will stand by what happened to me at my salvation experience. God actually talked to me in words,not audible,much like your mind is hearing these words yet there is no audible voice. Sorry but water baptism was never mentioned. The first thing God said to me was that I must accept His Son as my Saviour, then He went on to explain that there was a heaven and a hell and that in my present condition I was headed for hell, He then told me that I must commit my life totally to God and accept Jesus as Saviour and come forward in church and confess this before the church,after doing this the next day God was again speaking from my lower chest area and saying to me over and over,"you are My child and I love you",I did not even know the bible at that time. After that at the mention of the name of Jesus fountains of love would come bubbling up from within myself, the new birth is real.

 

[Pard]

Drag me out and stone me folks,but I will stand by what happened to me at my salvation experience. God actually talked to me in words,not audible,much like your mind is hearing these words yet there is no audible voice. Sorry but water baptism was never mentioned. The first thing God said to me was that I must accept His Son as my Saviour, then He went on to explain that there was a heaven and a hell and that in my present condition I was headed for hell, He then told me that I must commit my life totally to God and accept Jesus as Saviour and come forward in church and confess this before the church,after doing this the next day God was again speaking from my lower chest area and saying to me over and over,"you are My child and I love you",I did not even know the bible at that time. After that at the mention of the name of Jesus fountains of love would come bubbling up from within myself, the new birth is real.

 

[taromina2003]

So lets pretend... Everyone is wiped off the face of the earth and there is only a single man left. That man finds the Bible and reads it and is like "Man, I want to be a Christian." So he studies it and after a time he has a real good grasp of the Bible and all the things that go into being a Christian. And he agrees with some of you and decides that baptism is a must in order to be saved, you're telling me he is screwed because he has no one to baptize him?

:biglol If I was the last man on earth I really doubt Baptism was going to be my fear of not getting into heaven. There are two answers in the Bible to this question, first one can not get into heaven by obeying laws, only faith in Christ and 2 the man next to Christ when he was crucified was not baptised and Jesus told him he would see him in paradise that day because he believed in Christ.

Now if I was the last man or woman I would baptise myself in Christ's name.

 

[taromina2003]

Drag me out and stone me folks,but I will stand by what happened to me at my salvation experience. God actually talked to me in words,not audible,much like your mind is hearing these words yet there is no audible voice. Sorry but water baptism was never mentioned. The first thing God said to me was that I must accept His Son as my Saviour, then He went on to explain that there was a heaven and a hell and that in my present condition I was headed for hell, He then told me that I must commit my life totally to God and accept Jesus as Saviour and come forward in church and confess this before the church,after doing this the next day God was again speaking from my lower chest area and saying to me over and over,"you are My child and I love you",I did not even know the bible at that time. After that at the mention of the name of Jesus fountains of love would come bubbling up from within myself, the new birth is real.

That is a beautiful testament.:waving

 

[Pard]

Now if I was the last man or woman I would baptise myself in Christ's name.

That may be tricky. Have you ever tried talking while underwater?

 

[taromina2003]

That may be tricky. Have you ever tried talking while underwater?

A nice clean bucket of water over the head would probably do trick.

 

[dadof10]

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." - John 10:27-29

Since you seem to hold the Calvinist view on sovereignty, I would like your opinion in another thread. No one else has really answered. The thread is "God's Sovereignty and the Church". Thanks.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[francisdesales]

So lets pretend... Everyone is wiped off the face of the earth and there is only a single man left. That man finds the Bible and reads it and is like "Man, I want to be a Christian." So he studies it and after a time he has a real good grasp of the Bible and all the things that go into being a Christian. And he agrees with some of you and decides that baptism is a must in order to be saved, you're telling me he is screwed because he has no one to baptize him?

This is odd, because Christianity depends upon being part of a community of fellow worshipers. The entire idea of "the Body of Christ" depends on there being fellow believers in Christ. The scenario goes way too far.

This is a better scenario that shows baptism is not ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation, since God is not BOUND by the sacraments. Would God be merciful if He condemned millions to eternal death because they were born before the era of the Church - OR were born in the wrong hemisphere and didn't hear of Christ until the 1500's? Of course not. God has alternatives for such. Consider 1 John 5:12 as their judgment bar - along with Matthew 25... But if baptism is available, then REJECTING it (which is what Jesus is talking about in John 3, not being ignorant of baptism) would be a cause for condemnation.

Regards

 

[Pard]

But if baptism is available, then REJECTING it (which is what Jesus is talking about in John 3, not being ignorant of baptism) would be a cause for condemnation.

Good, I'm safe... And by RCC standards I'm double safe cause I got baptized twice! (Baby and adult)

So, what if you were raised in one of this cults that twists scripture and doesn't allow their members to read the Word for their own purposes. (Say like that Westboro joint).

Now say this cult doesn't believe in baptisms and so you live your entire life as a Christian in every regard except you never get baptized because you never knew it was a requirement (per the situation I explained), will God still be accepting of you?

This really has nothing to do with baptisms, it's a question on your view, and will help me figure out my own. I'm inclined to say "OF course God will still welcome you, but the leader may get the boot"

Dadof10,

I can't find that thread mind linking it. (I know you were talking to Road, but now I'm curious)

 

[dadof10]

This is odd, because Christianity depends upon being part of a community of fellow worshipers. The entire idea of "the Body of Christ" depends on there being fellow believers in Christ. The scenario goes way too far.

This is a better scenario that shows baptism is not ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation, since God is not BOUND by the sacraments. Would God be merciful if He condemned millions to eternal death because they were born before the era of the Church - OR were born in the wrong hemisphere and didn't hear of Christ until the 1500's? Of course not. God has alternatives for such. Consider 1 John 5:12 as their judgment bar - along with Matthew 25... But if baptism is available, then REJECTING it (which is what Jesus is talking about in John 3, not being ignorant of baptism) would be a cause for condemnation.

Regards

Amen. Baptism is the ORDINARY MEANS of salvation. The scenario presented above is hardly ordinary, neither is the Thief on the cross. Its a mistake to take these extreme examples and apply them universally, across the board for everyone.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[stovebolts]

To all who hold that baptism is a "Requirement" I would respond, "No, Baptism is not a requirement. Just to clarify, Baptism is not a requirement, rather, it's a response".

I believe that God teaches us much through experience, and baptism certainly is an experience that can transform a life.

Grace and Peace.

 

[taromina2003]

To all who hold that baptism is a "Requirement" I would respond, "No, Baptism is not a requirement. Just to clarify, Baptism is not a requirement, rather, it's a response".

I believe that God teaches us much through experience, and baptism certainly is an experience that can transform a life.

Grace and Peace.

Exactly! I believe that most Christians desire Baptism but I think Hosea 6.6 is a good example of real salvation:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt-offerings.

 

[stovebolts]

Exactly! I believe that most Christians desire Baptism but I think Hosea 6.6 is a good example of real salvation:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt-offerings.

I think what God is saying, is don't just do the ritual without living the life. Live the life, and you'll experience the ritual. BTW, one function of the sacrificial system was for fellowship between the community in the presence of God as the overwhelming majority of the sacrifices were eaten among community.

God never intended to split the physical from the spiritual and when one comes to the baptismal waters as a response to the gospel, and not as one required though scripture, then I believe true physical and spiritual transformation can occur.

What is sad about what was said in Hosea, is that the people put their trust in the ritual, and lost the spiritual connection. They thought that they could live their lives anyway they wanted as long as they got the 'ritual' right... God has to bring them back to square one.

Response vs. Requirement... What a sad state we're in. but as Solomon said, 'there is nothing new under the sun"

 

[dadof10]

Dadof10,

I can't find that thread mind linking it. (I know you were talking to Road, but now I'm curious)

Sure, looking forward to your input.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/gods-sovereignty-church-33471/

 

[jasoncran]

On that? You mean the word of God? Yeah, that's what it's based on.



Jason, predestination doesn't violate one's will. Did Pharaoh want to rebel against God. Yes he did. Did Peter want to deny Christ? When it came down to it, yes he did.

odd for a calvinist not to believe in limited free will.thats at first.