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baptism for salvation?

M

Mark1616

Member
Hi everyone! I'm Josh. Earlier today, I posted a thread in the "new members" forum to say hi, introduce myself, and tell everyone how excited I am to finally be saved. Everyone has been really nice to me so far, and I'm thankful for that. The reason for this thread, is that when I shared HOW exactly I was saved, it apparently raised a few eyebrows. You see, I was saved when I obeyed the gospel. You're not saved until you obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-8). The gospel is Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We obey it by reenacting it. We die, we're buried, and we resurrect, just like Jesus did. Romans 6:3-5 walks us through this process: we "die" to our old selves by repenting of our sins, then we're "buried" in the watery grave of baptism, and then we are resurrected to newness of life when we come up out of the water. We are not saved until we have believed, repented, and been baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

What happened was, someone brought up a couple of objections to this. The objections were based on passages in Luke 23 (the thief on the cross), and in Acts 2. But then, thankfully, Reba stepped in and broke up what was about to become a debate, reminding us that the "new members" forum is supposed to be for "smiles, welcomes and hellos". :) So I figured that this would be a much better place for us to discuss this very important issue, with gentleness and reverence, of course (1 Peter 3:15). To break this up into bite-sized reader-friendly pieces, I'll post this as an intro, then my next 2 posts will deal with the 2 arguments that were raised in the other thread. Then we'll go from there.....
 
First, let's talk about the thief on the cross, who said to Jesus: "'Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!' And He said to him, 'truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise'" (Luke 23:42-43). Now, Jesus, while being alive on this earth, did as He saw fit. On 2 other occasions He pronounced forgiveness of sins. He healed the lame, the blind and the sick. He bid Peter to walk to Him on water. Jesus performed miracles and did signs and wonders to confirm to an unbelieving world that He was God's Son.

But now, let's look at Hebrews 9:16-17. "For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives." The Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) went into effect after Christ's death; therefore, Christ healed, forgave and saved men while He was alive (like the thief on the cross). However, Christ's law (or covenant) didn't go into effect until the moment of His death. Hebrews 9 makes this Bible fact clear. The principle of Christ's will continues to this day. A man, while he is alive, can do anything he wants with his estate, but his will goes into effect at the point of his death.

When Jesus lived, all men were still under the Law of Moses (if they were Jews), or the Patriarchal Law (if they were Gentiles). However, at the point of Christ's death those former covenants were nailed to the cross and both Jews and Gentiles would be reconciled together into one body, the church, by the cross. Ephesians 2:14-16 says: "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body [the body is also the church, Colossians 1:18] to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."

Here's another important biblical point about baptism. One of many reasons for baptism is found in Romans 6:3-5. "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death,certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection". Men and women are baptized into Jesus Christ by being baptized into His death. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized into Christ's death because Christ had not yet died, so the thief COULDN'T have been baptized into Christ's death.

The thief wasn't subject to Paul's command to be baptized into Christ's death (Romans 6) just like Moses, Abraham and David weren't subject to it, because all of those people lived before Christ's death on the cross, and were still under the Mosaic and Patriarchal Laws. How could any of them have been baptized into Christ's death when Christ had not yet died? However, when Christ said "it is finished" and died, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51), which was God's demonstration of destroying the middle-wall of partition between the Jews and Gentiles. At that moment, the Mosaic and Patriarchal Laws were out, and the new covenant was in. Everyone on this side of the cross must believe, repent, and be baptized. And sure enough, there is not a single example of anyone in the rest of the New Testament, on this side of the cross, being saved without baptism.
 
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Now I would like to address the argument that Acts 2:41-42 refer to baptism and the breaking of bread as "the normal activity of Christians", but they don't save, and are not essential to save. First of all, I agree that breaking bread has nothing to do with being saved (LOL). But with my lame joking aside, let's look at Acts 2:41-42. "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." I'm sorry, but the argument that their baptism was "just another thing Christians did after already being saved, while breaking bread and praying", is an invalid argument. Let's put these two verses back into their proper context. If we go back a bit, to verses 37 and 38, we see them asking Peter what they need to do, and Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.

He doesn't say "repent and be saved, and then later this evening we'll all celebrate with some bread breaking, baptisms and prayer". Not at all. He said to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. Then later in the NT, Peter goes on to tell us, in 1 Peter 3:21, that "baptism now saves us", echoing the words of Jesus Himself, when He said that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). So with all that context and remote text taken into account, it makes much more sense that verse 41 is describing the salvation of thousands of people ("those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls").......and verse 42 is describing post-salvation activity (devotion, fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer, and everything else described in verses 42 through 47).
 
Baptismal regeneration is a form of works salvation: salvation by rite.

Ephesians 2.9 says 'Not of works'.

In the above presentations, it seems to be argued that it is the so called reenactment of the death of Christ which validifies the covenant made by the testator.

Whereas Romans 3 says that the Lord Jesus is declared to be a propitiation 'though faith in His blood'. Ephesians 2.8 makes it clear that salvation is by grace though faith.
 
One should understand 'baptised for the forgiveness of sins' in terms of 'on account of the forgiveness of sins' rather than 'in order to obtain forgiveness of sins'. Remember that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, and after Pentecost it was still a demonstration of someone's repentance and faith that s/he was baptised: the regeration did not come through water, however; rather, it was by the Spirit, through faith.
 
With regards to the thief crucified along side Jesus. Jesus said that to follow Him, not only do you have to recognize Him, you must be able to drink from the cup that he was about to drink from. ie: torture and crucifixion. In terms of that day, the thief indeed fulfilled the requirements. He recognized Jesus as Lord and saviour AND he was indeed drinking from the same cup as Jesus in terms of suffering.
When it comes to baptism by water, it is not only symbolic. It is a sign and proclamation of faith. To say it is simply symbolic for human needs is wrong. The Gospel tells us that we must be baptized of water and of the Spirit.
The procedure is confession of faith and recognition of Jesus as Lord over the dominion of our lives.
Then immersion in water.
After this the spirit indwells in us.

So if the spirit indwells in us only AFTER immersion,it is a sign to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that we are faithful. Not simply a sign to men and their man made doctrines of brand name denominational churches.
To forego biblical baptism (total immersion) means we are still not clothed in Christ and therefore putting our own eternity at risk.
 
Paul1965 said:
With regards to the thief crucified along side Jesus. Jesus said that to follow Him, not only do you have to recognize Him, you must be able to drink from the cup that he was about to drink from. ie: torture and crucifixion. In terms of that day, the thief indeed fulfilled the requirements. He recognized Jesus as Lord and saviour AND he was indeed drinking from the same cup as Jesus in terms of suffering.
When it comes to baptism by water, it is not only symbolic. It is a sign and proclamation of faith. To say it is simply symbolic for human needs is wrong. The Gospel tells us that we must be baptized of water and of the Spirit.
The procedure is confession of faith and recognition of Jesus as Lord over the dominion of our lives.
Then immersion in water.
After this the spirit indwells in us.

So if the spirit indwells in us only AFTER immersion,it is a sign to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that we are faithful. Not simply a sign to men and their man made doctrines of brand name denominational churches.
To forego biblical baptism (total immersion) means we are still not clothed in Christ and therefore putting our own eternity at risk.
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On this, I don't agree with you,Paul. John 3 is the great chapter with the teaching on the new birth ('ye must be born again') by the Lord Jesus and water baptism plays no part in it.

Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'. Agaim, this is not so called baptismal regeneration.
 
If Jesus instructed the apostles to instruct the disciples to instruct and so on, what changed His Holy decree? MEN!
Men teaching with their denominational doctrines, not Christ's doctrine.

"Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always---. Amen."
"Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

"Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip --- 35 Then Philip --- preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39And when they were come up out of the water

So if baptism by water was not required AFTER Jesus' ascension, why did Philip baptize the eunuch? Answer: because it is still required.

I'll put it this way and please don't think I'm trying to be demeaning because I'm not. I'm simply explaining how and why I believe this.
Jesus Himself instructed that we are to be baptized. That's way more than good enough for me. I guess I'm lucky in that I take my guidance from His word directly not from the doctrine of denominations who despite being goodhearted people are still following doctrine which has been written, rewritten and otherwise modified by humans to suit their needs.
 
Paul1965 said:
If Jesus instructed the apostles to instruct the disciples to instruct and so on, what changed His Holy decree? MEN!
Men teaching with their denominational doctrines, not Christ's doctrine.

"Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always---. Amen."
"Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

"Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip --- 35 Then Philip --- preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39And when they were come up out of the water

So if baptism by water was not required AFTER Jesus' ascension, why did Philip baptize the eunuch? Answer: because it is still required.

I'll put it this way and please don't think I'm trying to be demeaning because I'm not. I'm simply explaining how and why I believe this.
Jesus Himself instructed that we are to be baptized. That's way more than good enough for me. I guess I'm lucky in that I take my guidance from His word directly not from the doctrine of denominations who despite being goodhearted people are still following doctrine which has been written, rewritten and otherwise modified by humans to suit their needs.
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Yes, I agree with everything you wrote here, Paul!

My point was that baptism - and the Lord's Supper - are ordinances (to be done once for baptism and repeatedly for the Lord's Supper) which the Lord lovingly commanded, not in order for us to gain salvation, but as testimony of what the Lord has already wrought in us.

Blessings.
 
Mark1616 and all of us... This is a hot topic all sides of this discussion have strong passionate beliefs, thoughts and feelings.... We do not have to agree... we do need to be respectful to Gods family.

this section of CFnets terms of service have taught me a bit about being respectful to others...2.4: ..... Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Mark1616 thank you very much for recognizing the need to 'move' the discussion.... :thumbsup
 
Paul1965 said:
If Jesus instructed the apostles to instruct the disciples to instruct and so on, what changed His Holy decree? MEN!
Men teaching with their denominational doctrines, not Christ's doctrine.

"Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always---. Amen."
"Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

"Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip --- 35 Then Philip --- preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39And when they were come up out of the water

So if baptism by water was not required AFTER Jesus' ascension, why did Philip baptize the eunuch? Answer: because it is still required.

I'll put it this way and please don't think I'm trying to be demeaning because I'm not. I'm simply explaining how and why I believe this.
Jesus Himself instructed that we are to be baptized. That's way more than good enough for me. I guess I'm lucky in that I take my guidance from His word directly not from the doctrine of denominations who despite being goodhearted people are still following doctrine which has been written, rewritten and otherwise modified by humans to suit their needs.
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How many Baptisms do you see in scripture?


Thanks for your input, JLB
 
O.k. according to Paul 965 and Mark 1616 every man woman and child that repented accepted Christ on their death beds whether it be at home in a hospital bed a prison camp a prisoner on death row are now in the belly of hell because they weren't baptized..:confused

tob

or did i miss something..:nono
 
turnorburn said:
O.k. according to Paul 965 and Mark 1616 every man woman and child that repented accepted Christ on their death beds whether it be at home in a hospital bed a prison camp a prisoner on death row are now in the belly of hell because they weren't baptized..:confused

tob

or did i miss something..:nono
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I think one of the greatest misconceptions that we have in North America is the idea of eternal life at the beginning of our faith.

That we are saved and have eternal life at the very beginning of our faith or salvation experience, and that nothing we can do will change that fact, no matter what.

Consider these scriptures.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

and again -

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-9

... that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

... receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

and again -

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

and again -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Notice the expression of those who were placed on the left hand -

Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Words to consider.


JLB


 
Mark1616 said:
Hi everyone! I'm Josh. Earlier today, I posted a thread in the "new members" forum to say hi, introduce myself, and tell everyone how excited I am to finally be saved. Everyone has been really nice to me so far, and I'm thankful for that. The reason for this thread, is that when I shared HOW exactly I was saved, it apparently raised a few eyebrows. You see, I was saved when I obeyed the gospel. You're not saved until you obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-8). The gospel is Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We obey it by reenacting it. We die, we're buried, and we resurrect, just like Jesus did. Romans 6:3-5 walks us through this process: we "die" to our old selves by repenting of our sins, then we're "buried" in the watery grave of baptism, and then we are resurrected to newness of life when we come up out of the water. We are not saved until we have believed, repented, and been baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

What happened was, someone brought up a couple of objections to this. The objections were based on passages in Luke 23 (the thief on the cross), and in Acts 2. But then, thankfully, Reba stepped in and broke up what was about to become a debate, reminding us that the "new members" forum is supposed to be for "smiles, welcomes and hellos". :) So I figured that this would be a much better place for us to discuss this very important issue, with gentleness and reverence, of course (1 Peter 3:15). To break this up into bite-sized reader-friendly pieces, I'll post this as an intro, then my next 2 posts will deal with the 2 arguments that were raised in the other thread. Then we'll go from there.....
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How many Baptisms do you see in scripture?

Thanks JLB
 
Mark1616 said:
Now I would like to address the argument that Acts 2:41-42 refer to baptism and the breaking of bread as "the normal activity of Christians", but they don't save, and are not essential to save. First of all, I agree that breaking bread has nothing to do with being saved (LOL). But with my lame joking aside, let's look at Acts 2:41-42. "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." I'm sorry, but the argument that their baptism was "just another thing Christians did after already being saved, while breaking bread and praying", is an invalid argument. Let's put these two verses back into their proper context. If we go back a bit, to verses 37 and 38, we see them asking Peter what they need to do, and Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.

He doesn't say "repent and be saved, and then later this evening we'll all celebrate with some bread breaking, baptisms and prayer". Not at all. He said to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. Then later in the NT, Peter goes on to tell us, in 1 Peter 3:21, that "baptism now saves us", echoing the words of Jesus Himself, when He said that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). So with all that context and remote text taken into account, it makes much more sense that verse 41 is describing the salvation of thousands of people ("those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls").......and verse 42 is describing post-salvation activity (devotion, fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer, and everything else described in verses 42 through 47).
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1 Pet 3:20-21~~20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Did those 8 people who were saved get wet? baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh .....(.this is a DRY baptism.)

but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,........the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:5~~one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Mark 1:8~~"I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

The Bible very clearly states that any type of overt, physical washing, or any ritual, cannot cleanse us from sin. Heb. 10:4; IPet. 3:20-21.
 
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name (Jesus) whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. WHAT?

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive. Did these have to be now saved to receive the Holy Ghost?

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. This can’t be can it? They haven’t even been water baptized yet. Oh the humanity. If they’re saved without water baptism here, what baptism in the one baptism of Eph 4:5 they received?

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

An excerpt of a study I have of Ephesians by A.S. Copley.
"One baptism." This cannot be baptism in water; for that is only a memorial, a symbolic baptism. Water baptism answers to circumcision under the Old Covenant, which was a "sign," "a seal" - Romans 4:11. If baptism in water were the "one baptism," then the baptism in the Spirit would be no baptism or it would have a secondary place only which is impossible. How unworthy of the dear Holy Spirit, to presume to assign to a symbol what belongs to one of the three Persons of the Godhead. The "one baptism" is unmistakably the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist and Jesus both spoke of this baptism - Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5.

This baptism occurred on the day of Pentecost. Study the following verse: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" - I Corinthians 12:13. In this citation, we read plainly of the first, of the second, and of the sixth "ones" - the "one Body," the "one Spirit," and the "one baptism."

The mystical Body of Christ, called the Church, was sovereignly constituted on the day of Pentecost. It was formed of both Jews and Gentiles, termed "the mystery" in 3:4, 6. Those who had before believed, and on that day were filled with the Spirit, became the nucleus of the Church of Christ. Hence, all who believe on Jesus throughout this Church period were that day counted as baptized into the "one Body." Therefore, there is absolutely only "one Body," and there was only "one baptism." There cannot be more than one Body; hence, there cannot be another baptism in the Spirit. Most people fail to see that the baptism in the Spirit was a divine sovereign act. I believe that some see it, but refuse to accept it as the truth. God gathered the one hundred and twenty disciples. He set the time for them to be baptized. They could not have been filled with the Spirit thirty minutes sooner than they were, no matter what they might have done or how earnestly they might have prayed. That hour of that day was the set time of the Holy Spirit's advent from Heaven. It was in perfect accord with Leviticus 23:16. That was the fulfillment of the promised outpouring of the Spirit. John and Jesus announced it as the baptism in the Spirit, because it should constitute a new company of believers which Jesus termed "My Church" - Matthew 16:18.

There was one death of the old creation by the sovereign death of one Man - Jesus - in their behalf. Study the "ones" in Romans five. Christ died for both Jews and Gentiles "once." Thus, He broke down the enmity between them, and made way for a new creation to be formed out of both.

As we saw before (2:4-6), Jesus brought up from death with Him a new creation. He "raised us up with Him" - 2:6 R.V. According to God's sovereign counting, the whole old creation died and its penalty was paid in the death of Christ. On the other hand, all who believe on Jesus, and only those, were raised from the dead with Him. In like manner, after God's sovereign reckoning, by the "one baptism" He constituted all believers of this age "one Body" which He denominates the "Assembly" or "Church." The Holy Spirit was the "one Spirit," as the only necessary Agent of that of one baptism." Of course, Jesus Christ is the "one Lord" or "Head" of that "one Body."
 
Mark1616 said:
Now I would like to address the argument that Acts 2:41-42 refer to baptism and the breaking of bread as "the normal activity of Christians", but they don't save, and are not essential to save. First of all, I agree that breaking bread has nothing to do with being saved (LOL). But with my lame joking aside, let's look at Acts 2:41-42. "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." I'm sorry, but the argument that their baptism was "just another thing Christians did after already being saved, while breaking bread and praying", is an invalid argument. Let's put these two verses back into their proper context. If we go back a bit, to verses 37 and 38, we see them asking Peter what they need to do, and Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.

He doesn't say "repent and be saved, and then later this evening we'll all celebrate with some bread breaking, baptisms and prayer". Not at all. He said to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. Then later in the NT, Peter goes on to tell us, in 1 Peter 3:21, that "baptism now saves us", echoing the words of Jesus Himself, when He said that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). So with all that context and remote text taken into account, it makes much more sense that verse 41 is describing the salvation of thousands of people ("those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls").......and verse 42 is describing post-salvation activity (devotion, fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer, and everything else described in verses 42 through 47).
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For a 5 week old baby Christian, you sure know how to quote Scripture and present them in a debate forum.
What else about you don't we know?
 
allenwynne said:
For a 5 week old baby Christian, you sure know how to quote Scripture and present them in a debate forum.
What else about you don't we know?
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I've been saved for 5 weeks. That's all that means. I've been studying the Bible for years. I used to be an Assemblies of God, "baptism-after-salvation", denominationalist. It's taken a long time for me to come out of that. I apologize if my "baby Christian" line gave anyone the wrong idea, that somehow I just cracked open my Bible for the very first time, only 5 weeks ago.......

There are a lot of arguments that have been presented on this thread, some more passionate than others, but all of them worth addressing. I will try to get to each one as time permits. But for now, I would like to recommend that everyone read a specific book. This is the book that provided me with many biblical answers to many different issues (including baptism). It's called "Muscle And A Shovel" by Michael Shank. I can already see how some arguments on this thread, have been dealt with in this book. It's a must-read for anyone who is as passionate about searching for truth as I am.
 
JLB said:
I think one of the greatest misconceptions that we have in North America is the idea of eternal life at the beginning of our faith.

That we are saved and have eternal life at the very beginning of our faith or salvation experience, and that nothing we can do will change that fact, no matter what.

Consider these scriptures.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

and again -

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-9

... that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

... receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

and again -

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

and again -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Notice the expression of those who were placed on the left hand -

Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Words to consider.


JLB
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Have you ever left the faith?
 
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