baptism for salvation?

[JohnD]

Water Baptism is an outward sign of an inward transformation (which is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit whose mission is to reveal God the Son to the world).

According to John the Water Baptist he (contrasting what Jesus would do with what he was doing) said that he indeed baptized with water but the one coming after him would baptize with the Holy Ghost (salvation) and with fire (judgment).

 

[turnorburn]

what happened..

tob

 

[Mark1616]

Okay, so as I said before, there a quite a few arguments to address. And I plan to address them all, in the order they appear. Unfortunately, I can only address one argument per day, since I've got a lot of other stuff going on this week too. So to farouk, JLB, turnorburn, gr8grace3, Eugene, and John D, I haven't forgotten about any of you, and I promise I will respond to your posts. But again, one per day is all I can handle this week. To Paul 1965, thank you for backing me up; God bless! And Reba, thank you for maintaining order and civility around here, and I promise that I will comply with the "gentleness and respect" that 1 Peter 3:15 calls for. Now, with all that out of the way, I will begin with farouk's first argument, based on Ephesians 2:8-9. (BTW, the following argument, as well as most of my OP, have come directly from the book that I recommended earlier: "Muscle And A Shovel")

Ephesians 2:8-9 says: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Is this passage pushing "faith only" for salvation? A lot of people HAVE used this scripture as their star witness in their case for "faith only", but they are pulling it out of context to do so. Here's the thing: Paul wrote this letter to the church at Ephesus to a group of Christians who were being heavily influenced by new Jewish converts to Christianity. These Jews, who formerly were under the Law of Moses, were now trying to teach new GENTILE Christians that they had to go back to the former works of the Mosaic Law. Those Jews were teaching those new Gentile Christians that they had to be circumsized. That was the "work" Paul was talking about in verse 9, a former work of the flesh. That old Mosaic Law, along with all Jewish works of the flesh, was abolished on the cross.

Staying in this same chapter, let's look at verse 15. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace". Paul was correcting the new Christians at Ephesus, telling them in verses 10 thru 22 that Christians were no longer under the former works of Moses. The new Jewish converts to Christ had been boasting, evidently bragging that they were more righteous and more sinless because they had obeyed the previous law of circumcision. But Paul corrected their erroneous thinking, lest any Jewish-Christian should boast. Now, is Paul saying that we do nothing to access God's grace? No. As a matter of fact, "faith only" or "faith alone" is a false doctrine! There is only ONE place in the whole Bible where you find the phrase "faith alone", and it actually says "NOT by faith alone". James 2:24. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by
faith alone."

BTW, baptism is not a "works salvation" or "salvation by rite". Baptism is simply a PART of the process of obeying the gospel. And we are not saved until we obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:7-8). Belief, repentance, and confession of Jesus as God's Son, are all part of this process too. But we don't consider those "works", do we? And how is baptism a "work", when we don't even baptize ourselves? We passively submit to someone else, who baptizes US. Someone else does the "work" for us. Baptism is no more of a "work" than repentance or confession.

One down, many to go! Farouk, tomorrow I will address your argument about understanding baptism as "on account of the forgiveness of sins" instead of "FOR the forgiveness of sins", and about where exactly the regeneration comes from. I appreciate your patience, and to everyone else, as I said before, I'll get to you soon! It's my bedtime now; gotta get up at 3:30am.

 

[JLB]

Okay, so as I said before, there a quite a few arguments to address. And I plan to address them all, in the order they appear. Unfortunately, I can only address one argument per day, since I've got a lot of other stuff going on this week too. So to farouk, JLB, turnorburn, gr8grace3, Eugene, and John D, I haven't forgotten about any of you, and I promise I will respond to your posts. But again, one per day is all I can handle this week. To Paul 1965, thank you for backing me up; God bless! And Reba, thank you for maintaining order and civility around here, and I promise that I will comply with the "gentleness and respect" that 1 Peter 3:15 calls for. Now, with all that out of the way, I will begin with farouk's first argument, based on Ephesians 2:8-9. (BTW, the following argument, as well as most of my OP, have come directly from the book that I recommended earlier: "Muscle And A Shovel")

Ephesians 2:8-9 says: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Is this passage pushing "faith only" for salvation? A lot of people HAVE used this scripture as their star witness in their case for "faith only", but they are pulling it out of context to do so. Here's the thing: Paul wrote this letter to the church at Ephesus to a group of Christians who were being heavily influenced by new Jewish converts to Christianity. These Jews, who formerly were under the Law of Moses, were now trying to teach new GENTILE Christians that they had to go back to the former works of the Mosaic Law. Those Jews were teaching those new Gentile Christians that they had to be circumsized. That was the "work" Paul was talking about in verse 9, a former work of the flesh. That old Mosaic Law, along with all Jewish works of the flesh, was abolished on the cross.

Staying in this same chapter, let's look at verse 15. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace". Paul was correcting the new Christians at Ephesus, telling them in verses 10 thru 22 that Christians were no longer under the former works of Moses. The new Jewish converts to Christ had been boasting, evidently bragging that they were more righteous and more sinless because they had obeyed the previous law of circumcision. But Paul corrected their erroneous thinking, lest any Jewish-Christian should boast. Now, is Paul saying that we do nothing to access God's grace? No. As a matter of fact, "faith only" or "faith alone" is a false doctrine! There is only ONE place in the whole Bible where you find the phrase "faith alone", and it actually says "NOT by faith alone". James 2:24. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by
faith alone."

BTW, baptism is not a "works salvation" or "salvation by rite". Baptism is simply a PART of the process of obeying the gospel. And we are not saved until we obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:7-8). Belief, repentance, and confession of Jesus as God's Son, are all part of this process too. But we don't consider those "works", do we? And how is baptism a "work", when we don't even baptize ourselves? We passively submit to someone else, who baptizes US. Someone else does the "work" for us. Baptism is no more of a "work" than repentance or confession.

One down, many to go! Farouk, tomorrow I will address your argument about understanding baptism as "on account of the forgiveness of sins" instead of "FOR the forgiveness of sins", and about where exactly the regeneration comes from. I appreciate your patience, and to everyone else, as I said before, I'll get to you soon! It's my bedtime now; gotta get up at 3:30am.

Baptism is simply a PART of the process of obeying the gospel.


Amen.

Which Baptism do you consider as fulfilling the obedience?

Thanks for your post.


Take your time in answering. This is your thread. No hurry.

We want a quality answer, not for you to be under pressure to answer everybody at once.

God bless you.


JLB

 

[Mark1616]

Thanks JLB! I appreciate that. And I'll definitely be getting to the question of "which baptism fulfills the obedience". I just want to quickly add to my above post, that Ephesians 2:8 is exactly right! We ARE saved by grace through faith. And in light of the rest of the New Testament, we discover that this "faith" spoken of in this verse, is an active, obedient faith.

Okay, past my bedtime now.......good night, and God bless!

 

[turnorburn]

Only a part of the process of obeying the gospel like one of those kits you buy when we were kids with all of the parts an pieces "i liked the aircraft carriers" if you missed one part one piece it wouldn't work. So if you please I'd like to see a list of all of the parts that we need/have to have to obey for salvation.. because in Gods eyes it will have to be perfect..

Thanks..

tob

 

[veryberry]

Okay, so as I said before, there a quite a few arguments to address. And I plan to address them all, in the order they appear. Unfortunately, I can only address one argument per day, since I've got a lot of other stuff going on this week too. So to farouk, JLB, turnorburn, gr8grace3, Eugene, and John D, I haven't forgotten about any of you, and I promise I will respond to your posts. But again, one per day is all I can handle this week. To Paul 1965, thank you for backing me up; God bless! And Reba, thank you for maintaining order and civility around here, and I promise that I will comply with the "gentleness and respect" that 1 Peter 3:15 calls for. Now, with all that out of the way, I will begin with farouk's first argument, based on Ephesians 2:8-9. (BTW, the following argument, as well as most of my OP, have come directly from the book that I recommended earlier: "Muscle And A Shovel")

Ephesians 2:8-9 says: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Is this passage pushing "faith only" for salvation? A lot of people HAVE used this scripture as their star witness in their case for "faith only", but they are pulling it out of context to do so. Here's the thing: Paul wrote this letter to the church at Ephesus to a group of Christians who were being heavily influenced by new Jewish converts to Christianity. These Jews, who formerly were under the Law of Moses, were now trying to teach new GENTILE Christians that they had to go back to the former works of the Mosaic Law. Those Jews were teaching those new Gentile Christians that they had to be circumsized. That was the "work" Paul was talking about in verse 9, a former work of the flesh. That old Mosaic Law, along with all Jewish works of the flesh, was abolished on the cross.

Staying in this same chapter, let's look at verse 15. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace". Paul was correcting the new Christians at Ephesus, telling them in verses 10 thru 22 that Christians were no longer under the former works of Moses. The new Jewish converts to Christ had been boasting, evidently bragging that they were more righteous and more sinless because they had obeyed the previous law of circumcision. But Paul corrected their erroneous thinking, lest any Jewish-Christian should boast. Now, is Paul saying that we do nothing to access God's grace? No. As a matter of fact, "faith only" or "faith alone" is a false doctrine! There is only ONE place in the whole Bible where you find the phrase "faith alone", and it actually says "NOT by faith alone". James 2:24. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by
faith alone."

BTW, baptism is not a "works salvation" or "salvation by rite". Baptism is simply a PART of the process of obeying the gospel. And we are not saved until we obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:7-8). Belief, repentance, and confession of Jesus as God's Son, are all part of this process too. But we don't consider those "works", do we? And how is baptism a "work", when we don't even baptize ourselves? We passively submit to someone else, who baptizes US. Someone else does the "work" for us. Baptism is no more of a "work" than repentance or confession.

One down, many to go! Farouk, tomorrow I will address your argument about understanding baptism as "on account of the forgiveness of sins" instead of "FOR the forgiveness of sins", and about where exactly the regeneration comes from. I appreciate your patience, and to everyone else, as I said before, I'll get to you soon! It's my bedtime now; gotta get up at 3:30am.

Wasn't water baptism a Jewish custom?

What do you think the gospel is?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi everyone! I'm Josh. Earlier today, I posted a thread in the "new members" forum to say hi, introduce myself, and tell everyone how excited I am to finally be saved. Everyone has been really nice to me so far, and I'm thankful for that. The reason for this thread, is that when I shared HOW exactly I was saved, it apparently raised a few eyebrows. You see, I was saved when I obeyed the gospel. You're not saved until you obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-8). The gospel is Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We obey it by reenacting it. We die, we're buried, and we resurrect, just like Jesus did. Romans 6:3-5 walks us through this process: we "die" to our old selves by repenting of our sins, then we're "buried" in the watery grave of baptism, and then we are resurrected to newness of life when we come up out of the water. We are not saved until we have believed, repented, and been baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

What happened was, someone brought up a couple of objections to this. The objections were based on passages in Luke 23 (the thief on the cross), and in Acts 2. But then, thankfully, Reba stepped in and broke up what was about to become a debate, reminding us that the "new members" forum is supposed to be for "smiles, welcomes and hellos". So I figured that this would be a much better place for us to discuss this very important issue, with gentleness and reverence, of course (1 Peter 3:15). To break this up into bite-sized reader-friendly pieces, I'll post this as an intro, then my next 2 posts will deal with the 2 arguments that were raised in the other thread. Then we'll go from there.....

Mark, how does one repent of their sins?
Do you think that you stop sinning, and then you've repented of your sins?
But don't you continue to sin everyday?
Or are you now sinless?
Do we need to keep repenting of our sins everyday or do we lose our salvation if we don't?
I don't understand how repenting of our sins provides us with salvation.

By the way, what church do you now go to?
You told us what church you came out of but not what church you've gone into.

 

[JLB]

Thanks JLB! I appreciate that. And I'll definitely be getting to the question of "which baptism fulfills the obedience". I just want to quickly add to my above post, that Ephesians 2:8 is exactly right! We ARE saved by grace through faith. And in light of the rest of the New Testament, we discover that this "faith" spoken of in this verse, is an active, obedient faith.

Okay, past my bedtime now.......good night, and God bless!

Yes Faith without the action of obedience is dead.

works = the action obedience requires.

works does not = religious ritual

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Believe carries the idea of obey.

unbelief = disobedience

If you don't believe, you won't obey.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience... Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Disobedience = Unbelief


JLB

 

[JLB]

Mark, how does one repent of their sins?
Do you think that you stop sinning, and then you've repented of your sins?
But don't you continue to sin everyday?
Or are you now sinless?
Do we need to keep repenting of our sins everyday or do we lose our salvation if we don't?
I don't understand how repenting of our sins provides us with salvation.

By the way, what church do you now go to?
You told us what church you came out of but not what church you've gone into.

Could you show the scripture you are referring to, that teaches us to repent of our sins?

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Could you show the scripture you are referring to, that teaches us to repent of our sins?

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

JLB

Are you talking to me, JLB?
I was quoting Mark in the OP.

 

[JLB]

Are you talking to me, JLB?
I was quoting Mark in the OP.

Yes.
I wanted your input on this matter.

 

[Webb]

Acts 2:38
God bless,
w

 

[JLB]

Acts 2:38
God bless,
w

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Which says the same thing as Acts 3:19

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

Notice that neither scripture says Repent of your sins.

It say repent.

... that your sins may be blotted out or forgiven.

To repent means to turn away.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

We are to turn from Satan as Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord, so that we may receive the remission of sins.

So that our sins may be blotted out.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi JLB, I agree with you completely on this.
I think people get the word "repent" mixed up and you clarified it very well.
When Jesus said, "repent, for the Kingdom of God is near", he was saying to turn away from our worldly ways and look to God, for his Kingdom was near.

 

[Webb]

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Which says the same thing as Acts 3:19

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

Notice that neither scripture says Repent of your sins.

It say repent.

... that your sins may be blotted out or forgiven.

To repent means to turn away.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

We are to turn from Satan as Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord, so that we may receive the remission of sins.

So that our sins may be blotted out.

JLB

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Which says the same thing as Acts 3:19

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

Notice that neither scripture says Repent of your sins.

It say repent.

... that your sins may be blotted out or forgiven.

To repent means to turn away.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

We are to turn from Satan as Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord, so that we may receive the remission of sins.

So that our sins may be blotted out.

JLB

Hi JLB--You are correct. Acts 3:19 is the same as Acts 2:38. As for what repentance is, the Bible is its own best commentator and Jesus gave the definition of repentance in Matt.21:28-31.
God bless,
w

 

[Mark1616]

One should understand 'baptised for the forgiveness of sins' in terms of 'on account of the forgiveness of sins' rather than 'in order to obtain forgiveness of sins'. Remember that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, and after Pentecost it was still a demonstration of someone's repentance and faith that s/he was baptised: the regeration did not come through water, however; rather, it was by the Spirit, through faith.

More arguments have been presented since my last post, and I will get to those too. But like I said, one at a time, at least during this busy week. Yesterday I addressed farouk's first response, and today I'll deal with his second response. Now, farouk, you said that we should understand the New Testament as saying "baptized ON ACCOUNT OF the forgiveness of sins" rather than "in order to obtain".......like when Acts 2:38, for example, says "repent and be baptized FOR (as you said, on account of, or perhaps because of) the forgiveness of sins". Well, let's examine the word "for" in this verse a bit more closely. The original Greek word "for" in Acts 2:38, is "Eis'" (it's pronounced like "ice"). "Repent and be baptized EIS' the forgiveness of sins."

This preposition "Eis'", or "for", is defined by Thayer's Greek Lexicon as "into, unto, towards, entrance into; denotes direction". "Eis'" occurs 1,493 times within the New Testament. It means "into" 571 times, "to" 282 times, "unto" 208 times, "for" 91 times, "toward" 32 times.......and there are a few cases where it also means "in", "on", "that", "against", "upon", "at", "among", and "concerning". But how many times is "Eis'" translated "on account of"? Zero. "Eis'" is NEVER translated "on account of" in the New Testament. Any attempt to make the word "Eis'" mean "on account of" is, therefore, false. Such a translation and/or interpretation cannot be supported with an accurate, responsible, truthful study of the Greek language.

Matthew 26:28 has the exact same word "Eis'".......Jesus' blood was "poured out for many FOR (Eis') forgiveness of sins". The usage and structure of the word is identical to Acts 2:38. Translating Eis' to "on account of" would force this verse to say that Jesus' blood was poured out on account of forgiveness of sins. Or, Christ's blood was shed because sins were ALREADY remitted! This translation of Eis' would make Christ's death on the cross unnecessary and futile. Obviously, none of us believes this, so the absurdity of the argument becomes clear.

Consider the entire phrase "for forgiveness (or remission) of sins" in the original Greek: "Eis aphesin ton hamartion humon". This phrase is also found in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3. These describe John the Baptizer preaching the baptism of repentance FOR the forgiveness of sins. Did John baptize followers because they ALREADY HAD forgiveness of sins? Of course not. John did not baptize because man's sins were already forgiven, just as Peter did not preach "repent and be baptized" because man's sins were already forgiven. Peter's command to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins means exactly what it says.......baptism is FOR ("entrance into", Thayer's Greek definition) forgiveness of sins, just as Christ's blood was poured out FOR ("entrance into", Thayer's Greek definition) forgiveness of sins.

As for where the regeneration comes from, we agree that it is not the water itself that regenerates us. As I've said before, there's nothing magical in the water. It's God who regenerates us, when we obey Him. When we're buried with Jesus in baptism, God performs a "circumcision made without hands" (Colossians 2:11-12). God does the work, not the water.

 

[turnorburn]

I've heard this teaching before but i can't put my finger on it.. it will come to me sooner or later probably later

tob

 

[JLB]

More arguments have been presented since my last post, and I will get to those too. But like I said, one at a time, at least during this busy week. Yesterday I addressed farouk's first response, and today I'll deal with his second response. Now, farouk, you said that we should understand the New Testament as saying "baptized ON ACCOUNT OF the forgiveness of sins" rather than "in order to obtain".......like when Acts 2:38, for example, says "repent and be baptized FOR (as you said, on account of, or perhaps because of) the forgiveness of sins". Well, let's examine the word "for" in this verse a bit more closely. The original Greek word "for" in Acts 2:38, is "Eis'" (it's pronounced like "ice"). "Repent and be baptized EIS' the forgiveness of sins."

This preposition "Eis'", or "for", is defined by Thayer's Greek Lexicon as "into, unto, towards, entrance into; denotes direction". "Eis'" occurs 1,493 times within the New Testament. It means "into" 571 times, "to" 282 times, "unto" 208 times, "for" 91 times, "toward" 32 times.......and there are a few cases where it also means "in", "on", "that", "against", "upon", "at", "among", and "concerning". But how many times is "Eis'" translated "on account of"? Zero. "Eis'" is NEVER translated "on account of" in the New Testament. Any attempt to make the word "Eis'" mean "on account of" is, therefore, false. Such a translation and/or interpretation cannot be supported with an accurate, responsible, truthful study of the Greek language.

Matthew 26:28 has the exact same word "Eis'".......Jesus' blood was "poured out for many FOR (Eis') forgiveness of sins". The usage and structure of the word is identical to Acts 2:38. Translating Eis' to "on account of" would force this verse to say that Jesus' blood was poured out on account of forgiveness of sins. Or, Christ's blood was shed because sins were ALREADY remitted! This translation of Eis' would make Christ's death on the cross unnecessary and futile. Obviously, none of us believes this, so the absurdity of the argument becomes clear.

Consider the entire phrase "for forgiveness (or remission) of sins" in the original Greek: "Eis aphesin ton hamartion humon". This phrase is also found in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3. These describe John the Baptizer preaching the baptism of repentance FOR the forgiveness of sins. Did John baptize followers because they ALREADY HAD forgiveness of sins? Of course not. John did not baptize because man's sins were already forgiven, just as Peter did not preach "repent and be baptized" because man's sins were already forgiven. Peter's command to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins means exactly what it says.......baptism is FOR ("entrance into", Thayer's Greek definition) forgiveness of sins, just as Christ's blood was poured out FOR ("entrance into", Thayer's Greek definition) forgiveness of sins.

As for where the regeneration comes from, we agree that it is not the water itself that regenerates us. As I've said before, there's nothing magical in the water. It's God who regenerates us, when we obey Him. When we're buried with Jesus in baptism, God performs a "circumcision made without hands" (Colossians 2:11-12). God does the work, not the water.

Again, you are presuming that Baptism is Water Baptism.


JLB

 

[Webb]

Hi JLB--Pardon my intrusion. There are several baptisms mentioned in the NT yet Eph.4:5 states that currently there is but "one baptism". I understand the scripture teaches that "one baptism" to be water baptism.