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baptism for salvation?

Hi JLB--Pardon my intrusion. There are several baptisms mentioned in the NT yet Eph.4:5 states that currently there is but "one baptism". I understand the scripture teaches that "one baptism" to be water baptism.
Ephesians 4:5 is usually referred to as water baptism, but it may reasonably refer to baptism of the Spirit.
The 7 unities can be compared with the 4 unities set forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:4-13, where he deals at length with the unity produced by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 
Hi Allenwynne
Can we agree since Eph.4:5 reads "one baptism" that it cannot be both Holy Spirit and water baptism?

God bless,
w
 
Hi Allenwynne
Can we agree since Eph.4:5 reads "one baptism" that it cannot be both Holy Spirit and water baptism?

God bless,
w
I don't know how to answer that.
I cannot support either side with Scripture.
I do not have the knowledge to separate them.
I just quoted what I've been taught.
And that is what I quoted, saying that people take it two different ways, depending on what you believe.
There is nothing in Ephesians 4:5 that proves it to be one way or the other.
 
I don't know how to answer that.
I cannot support either side with Scripture.
I do not have the knowledge to separate them.
I just quoted what I've been taught.
And that is what I quoted, saying that people take it two different ways, depending on what you believe.
There is nothing in Ephesians 4:5 that proves it to be one way or the other.

I agree that Eph.4:5 taken alone does not tell us which is the "one baptism", however a search of what the scripture teaches in the NT to my understanding clearly teaches it to be water baptism.
God bless,
w
 
There is nothing in Ephesians 4:5 that proves it to be one way or the other.
Maybe not, in verse 5, but we do have verse 4:
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as ...one baptism

or clearer yet, his point:
3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
 
Hi Allenwynne,

While Eph.4:5 doesn't identify the "one baptism" I understand we can easily ascertain what the "one baptism" is from the NT subject matter and my conclusion is that it is water baptism for the remission of sins.
God bless,
w
 
On this, I don't agree with you,Paul. John 3 is the great chapter with the teaching on the new birth ('ye must be born again') by the Lord Jesus and water baptism plays no part in it.

Moving along (ever so slowly, LOL)! I'm up to post #6 now, and will address what farouk said about John 3. Jesus said in John 3:5 that we gotta be "born of water". Now, since you said that baptism plays no part in John 3, I'm guessing that you think John 3:5 is referring to live birth instead of water baptism. By the time I've finished making all the points I wish to make in this thread, perhaps everyone will see that it is NOT as much of a stretch, to see John 3:5 as referring to water baptism, as they might think.
 
How many Baptisms do you see in scripture?


Thanks for your input, JLB

Lots of them, JLB! But for now, I'll focus on the baptisms that are important to the argument that I'm making.......baptism accounts from the NT on THIS side of the cross. Baptisms into CHRIST, for salvation. There's about 3,000 people in Acts 2:41. Some Samaritans in Acts 8:12. Simon in Acts 8:13. The eunuch is Acts 8:38. Saul (aka Paul) in Acts 9:18. A bunch of Gentiles in Acts 10:48. Lydia in Acts 16:15. The jailer in Acts 16:33. Crispus, his entire household, and many other Corinthians in Acts 18:8. Some believers in Acts 19:5. That's all I got right now, as I'm pressed for time again.

Turnorburn, your question about death bed conversions is a very personal and emotional one for me (my own uncle "converted" on his death bed), but I will address it as honestly, objectively, and Biblically as I can tomorrow.
 
Hi JLB
We find the following baptisms in the NT: suffering, John's, Holy Spirit, fire and the baptism of the "great commission" which is water and for the remission of sins. The last mentioned here is the "one baptism" of Eph.4:5.
God bless,
w
 
No longer need water for remission of sins when you have the BLOOD of CHRIST.....

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sin:

Go ahead and put your faith in your water.
I'll put my faith in the blood of Christ.
 
O.k. according to Paul 965 and Mark 1616 every man woman and child that repented accepted Christ on their death beds whether it be at home in a hospital bed a prison camp a prisoner on death row are now in the belly of hell because they weren't baptized..:confused

tob

or did i miss something..:nono

Turnorburn, I used to raise this exact same point myself. Now, I used to bring this up in order to make a "God wouldn't do that" argument. In this argument, a person believes and repents, but dies before getting baptized, and my argument was that God wouldn't send the person to Hell, simply because he didn't get the chance to be baptized. The problem with this argument is that it can then be applied to ANY of God's instructions. Think about it.....suppose you're sharing the Gospel with an old man on his death bed. Halfway through your story, he dies. Using my "God wouldn't do that" argument means that God would not send the man to Hell, because he didn't get the CHANCE to believe. But.....everyone knows that you have to BELIEVE in Jesus to be saved. John 8:24 says: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” So God would absolutely send the man to Hell if he didn't believe.

But....but....but.....he didn't get the CHANCE to believe! My "God wouldn't do that" argument demanded that God allow the man into Heaven because he didn't get the CHANCE to believe, just as it demanded that God allow him into Heaven because he didn't get the CHANCE to be baptized. Not getting the chance to be baptized is just like not getting the chance to believe. Both hypotheticals describe a man on his death bed. In both case the man dies before an opportunity. Before the opportunity to be baptized in one case, and before the opportunity to believe in the other case. According to my "God wouldn't do that" argument, this guy gets a free pass; he doesn't have to obey the command of baptism. But to be consistent, we must also be prepared to say that he doesn't have to obey the command to believe either.

Now, like I said yesterday, this is a very personal and emotional subject for me. My uncle David passed away in August of 2012, at the age of 49. He loved vodka, and he basically drank himself to death. He was in the hospital for a couple weeks, and they did everything they could, but his liver was too far gone and his system was beyond the point of no return. One week before he died, his parents (my grandparents) prayed a "sinner's prayer" with him in his hospital bed, and told him he was saved. If I had only KNOWN at that time how un-biblical this was, I would have immediately flown out to California, told him how to be saved BIBLICALLY, helped him out of that bed, found some water (even a bathtub would have sufficed), and baptized him myself! But I didn't. Because I was still wasting away in Denomination-ville, I thought he was saved too!

Now, I'm not the judge of anyone's soul. I'm not qualified give a final "yes" or "no" to the question of whether my uncle is in Heaven. That's between him and God. I just know what the Bible says, and all I can do is speak where it speaks. As much as I love and miss my uncle, and as much as I would give anything to be able to say with confidence that he is waiting for me in Heaven.......I can't. He didn't obey the Gospel. Now, I could declare, "that's not fair! He believed and repented, but he was on his death bed, and didn't get the CHANCE to be baptized!" Well, as much as this upsets me to say, I have to put my emotions aside, and be honest and objective here. My uncle DID have the chance to be baptized. He had 49 years on this earth. That's 31 years of adulthood that God gave him; he had AMPLE time to put down the vodka bottle, pick up a Bible, and start digging through it.

If he had taken just a few MINUTES per day out of his life, to read through that New Testament (instead of just blindly trusting what his parents told him about what was in it), he would have easily read the whole thing. Multiple times, even! And he would not have been able to miss verses such as Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, etc, etc, etc. In those 31 years of digging, he could very well have noticed that people in the NT kept saying things like "believe", "repent", "confess", and "be baptized", and also have noticed that this "sinner's prayer" that his parents were pushing for salvation.......was nowhere to be found in the NT. He was smart enough to have figured all this out, if he cared enough to even try. Again, I love my uncle with all my heart, and I miss him greatly. My emotional side cries out: "No fair! God wouldn't do that! He didn't get the chance! He was on his death bed!"

But my dispassionate, objective, and (brutally) honest side has no choice but to admit that my uncle lived for himself for 49 years, and couldn't be bothered to think about the things of God, or which way he was headed after death. For 49 years, he "did it his own way". He did what he wanted, whenever he wanted, and how much he wanted. It was David's life, and God never had any place in it. But then, in the hospital, on his death bed, with a week to live.......all of a sudden he cares about God? After 49 years of ignoring God, NOW he wants to squeak into Heaven at the last minute with a convenient little 30-second "sinner's prayer"?

Again, this is just my intellectual honesty talking here. It really hurts me to be saying these things, because I would absolutely LOVE to be wrong about this, and be able to see my uncle again when I get to Heaven.
 
Gr8grace3, you're up next. :) I'll respond to your arguments tomorrow.

And veryberry, I'm glad to hear that you have faith in the blood of Jesus. And yes, I agree, that is what saves us. Not the water itself. That having been said, when you say things like "Go ahead and put your faith in your water".......I get the feeling that perhaps you haven't even READ my posts thus far. I hope I'm wrong about that, and for now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.......that you didn't really mean what you said there.

Past my bedtime again! Good night everyone, and God bless you all!
 
O.k. then according to your intellectual honesty.. every man woman and child that repented accepted Christ on their death beds whether it be at home in a hospital bed a prison camp a prisoner on death row are now in the belly of hell because they weren't baptized..

Thanks!

tob
 
Hi JLB
We find the following baptisms in the NT: suffering, John's, Holy Spirit, fire and the baptism of the "great commission" which is water and for the remission of sins. The last mentioned here is the "one baptism" of Eph.4:5.
God bless,
w


Thank you for your response.


Jesus taught - 3

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19

Paul taught symbolically - 3

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea... 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Paul taught directly, as recorded by Luke - 3

1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

  • Johns baptism - Water
  • Baptized into the name of the Lord - Born again
  • Baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire.

JLB
 
Galations 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What is this gospel?

1 Cor 15:1-4 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

If you are preaching any other gospel then this gospel, YOU ARE CURSED.....

Water baptism is needed for salvation...This is a false gospel!
 
Galations 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What is this gospel?

1 Cor 15:1-4 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

If you are preaching any other gospel then this gospel, YOU ARE CURSED.....

Water baptism is needed for salvation...This is a false gospel!


Please show the scripture that states that water baptism is needed for salvation.


JLB
 
I do not believe water baptism is needed for salvation.

Thanks
Why not?

Jesus: 'He that believeth AND IS BAPTISED shall be saved...; Mk 16.16

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
 
Romans 10:9-10;
"If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved".

No baptism here.
In fact, Paul said he baptized hardly anyone.
If baptism was so important, Paul would have been baptizing everyone every time.
But he did not and did not stress the importance of it as part of salvation.
 
Why not?

Jesus: 'He that believeth AND IS BAPTISED shall be saved...; Mk 16.16

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I personally believe we need to obey what The scriptures teach about Baptism.

Being baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ. - Moses

Being Baptized in water. - The sea

Being Baptized in the Holy Spirit [and fire]. - the cloud

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Corinthians 10:1-2 [Acts 19:1-6]

When we repent and believe the Gospel, we are baptized into the [name] Lord. Born again.

This is illustrated by the process of natural child birth. John 3


JLB
 
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