baptism for salvation?

[veryberry]

Why not?

Jesus: 'He that believeth AND IS BAPTISED shall be saved...; Mk 16.16

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Cor 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
We are baptized by the holy Spirit into The Lord Jesus Christ without water. This spiritual baptism is necessary for eternal life. Water baptism is a figure of the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[reba]

What ever our views on baptism i think we all can agree it is a form of unity... and look at what we do....

 

[Asyncritus]

Not quite sure what you're saying here JLB.

Into Moses = into Christ

Holy Spirit = cloud

Red Sea = water.

The natural child emerges from water into a new life.

Romans 6 is a whole chapter dedicated to water baptism and its consequences and symbolism of being buried with Christ and emerging to walk in newness of life.

No water baptism = no burial with Christ. Essential I would have thought.

 

[Asyncritus]

1 Cor 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
We are baptized by the holy Spirit into The Lord Jesus Christ without water. This spiritual baptism is necessary for eternal life. Water baptism is a figure of the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ.

Context, VB, context. Context is always king in the interpretation of scripture.

The context of the 1 Peter quote is the redemption of Noah and family THROUGH THE FLOOD WATERS.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even [WATER] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus:

14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water,

You will note that He received the spirit AFTER the water baptism. Also note the 'us': ie He and His brethren. (No exemptions!)

Paul


13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, (= the spirit acted on her) that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

15 And when she was baptized, (in the river, where else?) and her household...

Philip:

Acts 8.36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
[...]
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

As far as we know, he did not receive any spirit before or after this baptism in water.

Peter:

Acts 2.38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Again note the order. Baptism in water FIRST.
[...]
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [MEANING THAT ALL 3,000 WERE BAPTISED].

There are no exemptions.

 

[for_his_glory]

We put on Jesus by the renewal of our mind, body and soul through Jesus life, death and resurrection by which we can reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy through His Salvation of renewal and rebirth of spirit. We now have the mind of Christ as joint heirs with Jesus as we walk in the path of Jesus and not our own path anymore.


John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water (Greek definition of water here is Gods word) and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.


Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.


Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.


There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first and at the same time of repenting we also receive the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38,39.


This is from the Jerusalem Bible:

John 4:1 When Jesus heard that the Pharisees had found out that he was making and baptizing more disciples than John though in fact it was his disciples who baptized, not Jesus himself he left Judaea and went back to Galilee.


Johns baptism was for repentance, not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit as no one even knew anything of a Holy Spirit until Jesus taught them that another comforter would come down and the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost in the upper room. When Jesus was baptized of John is was to fulfill Gods righteousness in Him to receive Gods power and authority. Water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have been made righteous through Christ and have receive the Holy Spirit as we are given Gods power and authority through His grace to be His servants and witness here on Earth as Christ was.

Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Mark 10:39; 16:15,16; Acts 2:38 It is Gods Spirit that was in Christ and which we are now baptized or have received as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost as when Jesus ascended into Heaven the Holy Spirit came down and fell on those who received Jesus and his word. The baptism that Jesus and Peter was talking about was a Spiritual rebirth through Gods word, not water, Luke 3:16, as Peter taught it was through repentance and accepting Jesus and his teachings is when we receive the Holy Spirit.


Acts 8:36-38 we have to believe first and through confession we are given the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44-48 The Holy Spirit already fell on the disciples while they were listening to Peter. (No water involved)

Acts 19:1-7 Johns baptism was for repentance and the Holy Spirit was not received nor even heard of yet until the day in the upper room that Jesus was raised up to Heaven and the Holy Spirit fell down on all of them in that room. John baptized with water unto repentance but only as a symbolic sign that one had already received Jesus through confession/repentance.


John 14:16, 17 Jesus is telling his disciples that he will not leave them, but will send the Holy Spirit to comfort them and teach them. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, Matthew 28:19,20.


Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47, 48 are both talking about water, but not for the remission of sins, but for an afterward appearance of acknowledgement. We are given the Holy Spirit at the same time of repentance and has nothing to do with water baptism as I have stated that water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have already confessed and believed and received the Holy Spirit.


This is what Smith's Bible dictionary says:

To be baptized for Christ shows an intention to become a true follower of Christ. John baptized with water unto repentance but as a sign of it, perhaps only a sign of their willingness to enroll themselves among John’s followers. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.


Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

This verse shows that these men had already received the Holy Spirit, but wanted to be baptized in water also as followers of Christ. So I believe both verses in Acts to be water, but not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, but an outward appearance to others that they have repented and received the Holy Spirit already.


Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

 

[farouk]

We put on Jesus by the renewal of our mind, body and soul through Jesus life, death and resurrection by which we can reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy through His Salvation of renewal and rebirth of spirit. We now have the mind of Christ as joint heirs with Jesus as we walk in the path of Jesus and not our own path anymore.


John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water (Greek definition of water here is Gods word) and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.


Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.


Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.


There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first and at the same time of repenting we also receive the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38,39.


This is from the Jerusalem Bible:

John 4:1 When Jesus heard that the Pharisees had found out that he was making and baptizing more disciples than John though in fact it was his disciples who baptized, not Jesus himself he left Judaea and went back to Galilee.


Johns baptism was for repentance, not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit as no one even knew anything of a Holy Spirit until Jesus taught them that another comforter would come down and the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost in the upper room. When Jesus was baptized of John is was to fulfill Gods righteousness in Him to receive Gods power and authority. Water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have been made righteous through Christ and have receive the Holy Spirit as we are given Gods power and authority through His grace to be His servants and witness here on Earth as Christ was.

Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Mark 10:39; 16:15,16; Acts 2:38 It is Gods Spirit that was in Christ and which we are now baptized or have received as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost as when Jesus ascended into Heaven the Holy Spirit came down and fell on those who received Jesus and his word. The baptism that Jesus and Peter was talking about was a Spiritual rebirth through Gods word, not water, Luke 3:16, as Peter taught it was through repentance and accepting Jesus and his teachings is when we receive the Holy Spirit.


Acts 8:36-38 we have to believe first and through confession we are given the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44-48 The Holy Spirit already fell on the disciples while they were listening to Peter. (No water involved)

Acts 19:1-7 Johns baptism was for repentance and the Holy Spirit was not received nor even heard of yet until the day in the upper room that Jesus was raised up to Heaven and the Holy Spirit fell down on all of them in that room. John baptized with water unto repentance but only as a symbolic sign that one had already received Jesus through confession/repentance.


John 14:16, 17 Jesus is telling his disciples that he will not leave them, but will send the Holy Spirit to comfort them and teach them. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, Matthew 28:19,20.


Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47, 48 are both talking about water, but not for the remission of sins, but for an afterward appearance of acknowledgement. We are given the Holy Spirit at the same time of repentance and has nothing to do with water baptism as I have stated that water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have already confessed and believed and received the Holy Spirit.


This is what Smith's Bible dictionary says:

To be baptized for Christ shows an intention to become a true follower of Christ. John baptized with water unto repentance but as a sign of it, perhaps only a sign of their willingness to enroll themselves among John’s followers. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.


Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

This verse shows that these men had already received the Holy Spirit, but wanted to be baptized in water also as followers of Christ. So I believe both verses in Acts to be water, but not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, but an outward appearance to others that they have repented and received the Holy Spirit already.


Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Interesting also that Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'. This seems symbolic of the Scriptures' cleansing power.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

Not quite sure what you're saying here JLB.

Into Moses = into Christ

Holy Spirit = cloud

Red Sea = water.

The natural child emerges from water into a new life.

Romans 6 is a whole chapter dedicated to water baptism and its consequences and symbolism of being buried with Christ and emerging to walk in newness of life.

No water baptism = no burial with Christ. Essential I would have thought.

Could you give the scripture in Romans that states water Bsptism is essential.

 

[JLB]

Context, VB, context. Context is always king in the interpretation of scripture.

The context of the 1 Peter quote is the redemption of Noah and family THROUGH THE FLOOD WATERS.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even [WATER] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus:

14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water,

You will note that He received the spirit AFTER the water baptism. Also note the 'us': ie He and His brethren. (No exemptions!)

Paul


13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, (= the spirit acted on her) that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

15 And when she was baptized, (in the river, where else?) and her household...

Philip:

Acts 8.36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
[...]
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

As far as we know, he did not receive any spirit before or after this baptism in water.

Peter:

Acts 2.38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Again note the order. Baptism in water FIRST.
[...]
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [MEANING THAT ALL 3,000 WERE BAPTISED].

There are no exemptions.

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

Look at his verse -

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Do you think this means they were baptized in water again?

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Interesting also that Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'. This seems symbolic of the Scriptures' cleansing power.

Blessings.

Could you give Chapter and verse for that in Ephesians, thank you.

 

[farouk]

Could you give Chapter and verse for that in Ephesians, thank you.

Ephesians 5.26. (I don't see it as a reference to baptism, though.)

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

Interesting also that Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'. This seems symbolic of the Scriptures' cleansing power.

Blessings.

That is not a reference to the scriptures, but the Rhema, spoken word of God.

The same word that produces faith.

Faith come by hearing... the Rhema spoken word.

God speaking to you.

Logos can also mean a word spoken by God, when it is a message or teaching such as Jesus teaching His disciples by directly speaking to them.

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3

This word Rhema refers to the word that God speaks to us that gives us life.

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4


JLB

 

[farouk]

That is not a reference to the scriptures, but the Rhema, spoken word of God.

The same word that produces faith.

Faith come by hearing... the Rhema spoken word.

God speaking to you.

Logos can also mean a word spoken by God, when it is a message or teaching such as Jesus teaching His disciples by directly speaking to them.

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3

This word Rhema refers to the word that God speaks to us that gives us life.

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4


JLB

Does God today, in an authoritative way, speak to us independently of the content of His written Word?

 

[JLB]

Does God today, in an authoritative way, speak to us independently of the content of His written Word?

God today speaks to us from within our hearts, where He dwells.

He leads us and guides us...

He can speak to us and lead us about our business, our investments, our relationships, as well as Revelation about the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing God speak, however he chooses to speak.

Faith does not come by reading the scriptures, unless that is the method God is speaking directly to you at the time.


JLB

 

[farouk]

Faith does not come by reading the scriptures, unless that is the method God is speaking directly to you at the time.


JLB

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10.17).

 

[JLB]

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10.17).

Yes sir.

The Rhema spoken word of God.

Not the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing...

He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear , prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Noah did not have a bible.

Nor did Enoch.

Nor did Abraham.

Nor did Issac, or Jacob, or Sarah

Nor did Moses parents...

The obeyed what God told them to do.

That is faith.

Doing what God tells you to do.

The doing of obedience is the works of faith.

The effort that obedience requires.


JLB

 

[farouk]

Yes sir.

The Rhema spoken word of God.

Not the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing...

He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear , prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Noah did not have a bible.

Nor did Enoch.

Nor did Abraham.

Nor did Issac, or Jacob, or Sarah

Nor did Moses parents...

The obeyed what God told them to do.

That is faith.

Doing what God tells you to do.

The doing of obedience is the works of faith.

The effort that obedience requires.


JLB

The 'obedience of faith' is only by grace anyway; it's not meritorious.

God does not lead people in any other way except accordance with what the written Word teaches. (It would not make sense to say: "God's word orally or internally told me to do one thing, even though His written Word says the opposite".)

 

[JLB]

The 'obedience of faith' is only by grace anyway; it's not meritorious.

God does not lead people in any other way except accordance with what the written Word teaches. (It would not make sense to say: "God's word orally or internally told me to do one thing, even though His written Word says the opposite".)

If You are a business man and God led you to buy a certain stock that would be profitable, is there stocks in the bible ?

 

[Mark1616]

1 Pet 3:20-21~~20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Did those 8 people who were saved get wet? baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh .....(.this is a DRY baptism.)

but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,........the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:5~~one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Mark 1:8~~"I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

The Bible very clearly states that any type of overt, physical washing, or any ritual, cannot cleanse us from sin. Heb. 10:4; IPet. 3:20-21.

The following response was shared with me by one of my Elders at church.

Regarding 1 Peter 3:21.......Remember that it was Peter who commanded those who heard the gospel on Pentecost to be baptized in Jesus’ name, Acts 2:36-38 which is in perfect harmony with what Jesus told him and the other apostles in the great commission as per Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16 & Luke 24:44-47.


It was also Peter who later in the same way, commanded Cornelius and his family to be baptized in water, Acts 10:48 after God showed his approval of them coming into the kingdom by giving them Holy Spirit baptism. Peter makes this point in both councils at Jerusalem which were specifically convened to discuss the Gentiles being baptized, Acts 11:15-18 & 15:1-11. He argued that HSb (for short) proved that they were “acceptable” (Acts 10:9-16) to receive gcb.


We should ask ourselves why God inspired Luke to record Peter’s defense of baptizing the Gentiles in both Acts 10 & 15 too, if not to help to us understand that HSb was only given to Cornelius to justify their receipt of gcb. I believe this is because gcb is the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5. Gcb is the only baptism which reenacts the death burial and resurrection of Jesus (the gospel, 1st Corinthians 15:1-4) according to Romans 6:3-6.


With the above as a context, we read in 3:20 of his first letter that Peter introduces the historic salvation of Noah which obviously brings water into the conversation.


Why? Does he do this to show that we don’t need water? On the contrary, he does it to show us that we do need water, stating very clearly that baptism saves us. Why else would he have commanded this on Pentecost? Why else would he have commanded it for Cornelius even after he and his entire family had been baptized with the Holy Spirit?


Only water could possibly make folks think that it was about cleansing the flesh, so he reassures them that it is not about that. Rather, it is an appeal to God for a good conscience because the promise with gcb is that sin is forgiven at that point.


That our sins are forgiven at baptism has already been mentioned from Acts 2:38 & Romans 6:3-6 but Colossians 2:11-14 gives it to us in additional detail.


1…. Like Romans 6 said, baptism is a burial from which we arise (HSb is not a burial

from which we arise) - Col. 2:12

2…. We arise saved through faith that God at that point has removed our sin and

the forgiveness of sin is never connected with HSb - Col. 2:11-13

3…. Jesus took away the “certificate of debt” nailing it to his cross. Remember

Romans 6:3 that we are baptized into the death (crucifixion) of Jesus and that

our old self was nailed to the cross, crucified, 6:6 with him. HSb is never said to

connect us with the cross of Jesus but gcb definitely does - Col 2:14.


You cite Hebrews 10:4 to say that no ritual can cleanse us from sin. Well, that’s not what the passage says. It teaches us that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, which is true. However, they forget that God took away/forgave the sin of those who offered up the blood of bulls and goats according to Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31 & 35.


God forgives sins according to His own plan and the law was His plan to forgive sin until the coming of His son whose blood would pay for the sins of us all (which the blood of animals could not). Those under the old covenant were forgiven because they, by faith, kept the law and offered the sacrifices that pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus. We, like those who kept the law, are forgiven because we do in faith what Jesus said. Jesus and his apostles said that we are to believe, repent and be baptized in His name according to his great commission. Our faith in Him compels us to believe that and do it.


The above point about forgiveness under the law is exactly what Romans 1:16-17 & 3:21-26 are given to explain. God is declared righteous because He paid with Jesus’ blood the debt of sin that He forgave through the keeping of the law and sacrifices. He did not welch on this debt, but paid it in full and teaches us that if we want to be forgiven now we must get to the water.



What about the Passover (Exodus 12)? Do I really have to put blood on the doorposts and lintels of the house? Gross. God knows who is in there and that we love him. He doesn't need me to put blood on the door. If I put blood on the door then I could claim that I saved myself. Right? I'll just explain to the death angel when he comes tonight how my faith in God's grace eliminates any need I may have to actually do what he says I need to do because any action on my part could be considered a work.



How were those healed when snakebitten in the wilderness (Numbers 21:4-9)? They had to look on the bronze serpent that Moses had put on a pole. How silly, right? Everyone knows that looking at a bronze serpent won't cure a snakebite, right?. Why if you crawled over and looked at it then you could claim that your own power to crawl had saved you and your healing would have been by your own works. Better to just lay there and fester and ask God to heal you rather than be so legalistic as to believe that God would actually require you to go look at that snake on a pole.


How was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy in 2nd Kings 5:1-14?He dipped 7 times in the Jordan river like he was told to do.Was it the Jordan that cleansed him?Of course we know it was God who cleansed him. But God only cleansed him when he went to the water and dipped like he was told.Why did God have him cleansed in this fashion and why did he have the record of it written down and preserved for us to read today?


Go wash in the pool of Siloam to get my sight back (John 9)? No way. That would be a work, right? Jesus already put the mud on my eyes so I'll just wait here for his work to give me my sight. Besides, he knows there are plenty of good water sources around Jerusalem and I could wash anywhere I wanted besides the pool of Siloam, that is if I were going to wash at all. But I'm not going to wash, even though he told me to go wash, because that would be trying to earn my sight myself and not depending on Jesus and the work that he has already done.


I digress.


God still does the washing away of sin. He has explained several times and in various ways, however, that he does it when we get to the water having faith in Jesus.

 

[veryberry]

Yes sir.

The Rhema spoken word of God.

Not the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing...

He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear , prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Noah did not have a bible.

Nor did Enoch.

Nor did Abraham.

Nor did Issac, or Jacob, or Sarah

Nor did Moses parents...

The obeyed what God told them to do.

That is faith.

Doing what God tells you to do.

The doing of obedience is the works of faith.

The effort that obedience requires.


JLB

The scriptures are the Word of God.

You want to hear the Word of God? then read the bible out loud or pop in a bible cd or dvd.

Your took that verse out of context. If you read vs. 14-16, you will see that it is clearly not talking about an audible voice of God, or vision, or dreams.

 

[veryberry]

The following response was shared with me by one of my Elders at church.

Regarding 1 Peter 3:21.......Remember that it was Peter who commanded those who heard the gospel on Pentecost to be baptized in Jesus’ name, Acts 2:36-38 which is in perfect harmony with what Jesus told him and the other apostles in the great commission as per Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16 & Luke 24:44-47.

Peter did not preach the gospel at pentecost. The gospel that we obey was given to Paul which can be found in 1 Cor 15:1-4. In Acts 2 not one person asked "what must I do to be saved" like in Acts 16: 30-31. Go and read this to passages and tell me what the answer is.

It was also Peter who later in the same way, commanded Cornelius and his family to be baptized in water, Acts 10:48 after God showed his approval of them coming into the kingdom by giving them Holy Spirit baptism. Peter makes this point in both councils at Jerusalem which were specifically convened to discuss the Gentiles being baptized, Acts 11:15-18 & 15:1-11. He argued that HSb (for short) proved that they were “acceptable” (Acts 10:9-16) to receive gcb.


We should ask ourselves why God inspired Luke to record Peter’s defense of baptizing the Gentiles in both Acts 10 & 15 too, if not to help to us understand that HSb was only given to Cornelius to justify their receipt of gcb. I believe this is because gcb is the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5. Gcb is the only baptism which reenacts the death burial and resurrection of Jesus (the gospel, 1st Corinthians 15:1-4) according to Romans 6:3-6.

The very fact that they received the holy Spirit(They were saved) is proof that water baptism is not for salvation. It is symbolic.

1 Cor 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. clearly explains what is being said in Roms 6:3-6

With the above as a context, we read in 3:20 of his first letter that Peter introduces the historic salvation of Noah which obviously brings water into the conversation.


Why? Does he do this to show that we don’t need water? On the contrary, he does it to show us that we do need water, stating very clearly that baptism saves us. Why else would he have commanded this on Pentecost? Why else would he have commanded it for Cornelius even after he and his entire family had been baptized with the Holy Spirit?


Only water could possibly make folks think that it was about cleansing the flesh, so he reassures them that it is not about that. Rather, it is an appeal to God for a good conscience because the promise with gcb is that sin is forgiven at that point.

1 Cor 3:15- If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This would be a good comparison verse. Are we saved by fire? no, we are saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ. Was Noah saved by water that did not touch him? or by the Ark that floated on water.

That our sins are forgiven at baptism has already been mentioned from Acts 2:38 & Romans 6:3-6 but Colossians 2:11-14 gives it to us in additional detail.


1…. Like Romans 6 said, baptism is a burial from which we arise (HSb is not a burial

from which we arise) - Col. 2:12

2…. We arise saved through faith that God at that point has removed our sin and

the forgiveness of sin is never connected with HSb - Col. 2:11-13

3…. Jesus took away the “certificate of debt” nailing it to his cross. Remember

Romans 6:3 that we are baptized into the death (crucifixion) of Jesus and that

our old self was nailed to the cross, crucified, 6:6 with him. HSb is never said to

connect us with the cross of Jesus but gcb definitely does - Col 2:14.

Our sins are forgiven, the moment we believe. The moment we believe, we are baptized into Christ by the holy Spirit. Believe what though? 1 Cor 15:1-4
The holy Spirit has more to do with our salvation then your elders say.
1 Cor 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

You cite Hebrews 10:4 to say that no ritual can cleanse us from sin. Well, that’s not what the passage says. It teaches us that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, which is true. However, they forget that God took away/forgave the sin of those who offered up the blood of bulls and goats according to Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31 & 35.


God forgives sins according to His own plan and the law was His plan to forgive sin until the coming of His son whose blood would pay for the sins of us all (which the blood of animals could not). Those under the old covenant were forgiven because they, by faith, kept the law and offered the sacrifices that pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus. We, like those who kept the law, are forgiven because we do in faith what Jesus said. Jesus and his apostles said that we are to believe, repent and be baptized in His name according to his great commission. Our faith in Him compels us to believe that and do it.

God forbeared sin but the sin was never taken away until the Lord Jesus Christ shed blood, which is what Romans 3: 25 means. The blood of bulls and goats covered the sin but did not remove the sin. The blood of Jesus Christ removes the sin.

The above point about forgiveness under the law is exactly what Romans 1:16-17 & 3:21-26 are given to explain. God is declared righteous because He paid with Jesus’ blood the debt of sin that He forgave through the keeping of the law and sacrifices. He did not welch on this debt, but paid it in full and teaches us that if we want to be forgiven now we must get to the water.

This is ridiculous...1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. What part of this do you not understand? It is the blood of Christ that cleanses sin...not water.

What about the Passover (Exodus 12)? Do I really have to put blood on the doorposts and lintels of the house? Gross. God knows who is in there and that we love him. He doesn't need me to put blood on the door. If I put blood on the door then I could claim that I saved myself. Right? I'll just explain to the death angel when he comes tonight how my faith in God's grace eliminates any need I may have to actually do what he says I need to do because any action on my part could be considered a work.



How were those healed when snakebitten in the wilderness (Numbers 21:4-9)? They had to look on the bronze serpent that Moses had put on a pole. How silly, right? Everyone knows that looking at a bronze serpent won't cure a snakebite, right?. Why if you crawled over and looked at it then you could claim that your own power to crawl had saved you and your healing would have been by your own works. Better to just lay there and fester and ask God to heal you rather than be so legalistic as to believe that God would actually require you to go look at that snake on a pole.


How was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy in 2nd Kings 5:1-14?He dipped 7 times in the Jordan river like he was told to do.Was it the Jordan that cleansed him?Of course we know it was God who cleansed him. But God only cleansed him when he went to the water and dipped like he was told.Why did God have him cleansed in this fashion and why did he have the record of it written down and preserved for us to read today?


Go wash in the pool of Siloam to get my sight back (John 9)? No way. That would be a work, right? Jesus already put the mud on my eyes so I'll just wait here for his work to give me my sight. Besides, he knows there are plenty of good water sources around Jerusalem and I could wash anywhere I wanted besides the pool of Siloam, that is if I were going to wash at all. But I'm not going to wash, even though he told me to go wash, because that would be trying to earn my sight myself and not depending on Jesus and the work that he has already done.


I digress.

God said believe in the death,burial, and resurrection for salvation. 1 Cor 15:1-4
God said that we are justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:24. What does "free" mean to you?
God said that we have redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ blood. Eph 1:7, Col 1:14.
God said you are saved by his grace and not of works. Eph 2:8-9 . You can only receive my gift if you are baptized by water. Would this make the gift free? No. It would then become a debt owed. See Roms 4:4-5

God still does the washing away of sin. He has explained several times and in various ways, however, that he does it when we get to the water having faith in Jesus.

See 1 John 1:7. water is not the cleansing agent.
You need to find new Elders.