Baptism in Heb 6:1

[Tomlane]

Free, and what were the signs that were to be present when this commission is carried out? Do you know what they are so we can know if God is taking part in it as well?
Tomlane

 

[Free]

Free, and what were the signs that were to be present when this commission is carried out? Do you know what they are so we can know if God is taking part in it as well?

The person getting baptized would appear wet. What else would happen if someone is baptized in water?

 

[Tomlane]

Free, and what were the signs that were to be present when this commission is carried out? Do you know what they are so we can know if God is taking part in it as well?

The person getting baptized would appear wet. What else would happen if someone is baptized in water?

Free, sorry that was not my question. Allow me to make it planer to you. you stated: "Matt 28:18-20 "18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

I believe you gave that to justify what you are doing religiously. So my question is, do you know what signs God said you have to have so people will know God has sent you, or using you?

I hope you can answer it now. thanks.
Tomlane

 

[Free]

Free, and what were the signs that were to be present when this commission is carried out? Do you know what they are so we can know if God is taking part in it as well?

The person getting baptized would appear wet. What else would happen if someone is baptized in water?

Free, sorry that was not my question. Allow me to make it planer to you. you stated: "Matt 28:18-20 "18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

I believe you gave that to justify what you are doing religiously. So my question is, do you know what signs God said you have to have so people will know God has sent you, or using you?

I hope you can answer it now. thanks.
Tomlane

I have simply proved that Jesus himself commanded baptism for all believers. There are no signs that are to follow water baptism.

 

[sonlite101]

Personally I believe baptism to be one of public announcement that one has accepted Christ. I was saved in a moment and some want to say it's not what I thought it was for some reason or other. So be it. It's difficult to argue opinion against one who had an experience no matter how determined the opinion is. Whatever. Anyway...
My point is that I was saved, then I decided to be baptized about 6 weeks later. I was saved before the immersion and I was still saved afterward. Nothing changed for me, not my faith, not my thirst to find out who Christ is and not the strong desire to talk about Christ with anyone who cared to participate in discussion.
I was saved once and for all and I was baptized once and for all. Whatever the opinion or interpretation of doctrine/s may be the fact still remains that I was indeed baptized knowing full well what I was doing. Some could argue that I suppose but again the fact is I was baptized.
Once.

I can see that you know baptism of water does not save Rick. But most believers don’t, and they cling to the notion that water baptism does save and that our sins are forgiven at the time of that baptism.

To complicate matters, then we have the myriad of standards that those who hold to this doctrine want to impose on the rest of us as to how water baptism should be performed. Some denominations say it should be done when you are an infant; others that it must be by immersion. Still others say it should be by sprinkling, or in the name of Jesus only, etc., etc.

These men’s laws place a heavy burden on those who do not know the Word of God because they proclaim a false gospel. This is why it is extremely important that we know the truth about where our collective baptism (cleansing; purification) took place and what it accomplished for all of us.

Our High Priest, Jesus Christ, underwent baptism--an immersion in suffering-- in our stead on the Cross. He did not need to be baptized (cleansed, purified) but we did. And there is where He washed everyone’s sins away with His blood.

Armed with the truth, then we can go through the rites imposed by others if we so desire, knowing that just like you said, “I was saved before the immersion and I was still saved afterward. Nothing changed for me,…..€Â

sonlite101

 

[Rick W]

sonlite101,
I don't know what opens the door for other people, I'm not them. There is no way I can say a baptism wasn't joined with the baptism of the Holy Spirit for any one person. But this I do know, not every baptism I've witnessed was.
I've also known others to pray that Christ come into their life. But not every prayer is accompanied by the Holy Spirit.
I've known people to answer what's named altar call to receive Christ into their life. But not everyone going forward was touched by the Holy Spirit.

A belief of baptism as the way to call on God to be saved is no more a deception then those who preach the "saving" prayer or pastors who announce altar call at the end of a service. If the Holy Spirit isn't there it's not going to work. It's NOT our call. Nor are any of these three common practices deception since none of them ever get 100% results anyway.

This is exactly why I will not judge anyone believing baptism is the way to go or someone telling somebody to pray for salvation or the pastor announcing altar call. All of these are a belief to the way to salvation and I honestly don't see any one of them getting any more results than the others. When it comes right down to it there's just a lot more going on than we're privy to regardless if we take action in belief or if we're called in the same manner as Paul on his way to Damascus. Therefore I can honestly say I don't know what opens the door for other people.

I took my baptism very seriously. It was indeed a high point in my walk for I would never have given thought to doing such a thing before I was saved. Likewise I partake in Communion just as seriously in praise of what Jesus Christ did for this undeserving soul.

Believe as your heart tells you but also allow others the same liberty because no matter what we do or don't do at the end of the day the Lord our God remains sovereign.

 

[francisdesales]

Heb 9:10
10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various
ceremonial washings-- external regulations applying
until "the time of the new order." (NIV)

Christian baptism is not a "ceremonial washing". It is a sacrament of the "New Order". The laver of regeneration is the means by which we become born again, by water and the Spirit. As Hebrews 9 ALSO points out, the Old Covenant was not able to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper. The New Covenant does. With Christ, we no longer have ceremonial washings. We have a washing in water and the Spirit. Or is Christ's baptisms equal to John's baptisms?

I have yet to hear an answer from those who reject Christian baptisms using water.

AND the GOOD News is: Jesus ushered in the “time of the new order “on the cross (though the benefits were in effect long, long before that).

The scriptures say in Heb 9:22 that “

22 ... “the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed
with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no
forgiveness. (NIV)

And Romans 6 tells us that one is connected to that blood through Christian baptism, which is by water and the Spirit...

Jesus fulfilled this law, and so there is indeed a baptism for the “forgiveness of sins†but it is not the copy/shadow (baptism of water) performed by congregations before or after the Cross.

First of all, the author of Hebrews was speaking of the Old Law. Baptisms such as John's was NOT part of the Old Law.

Secondly, baptism's shadow or OT copy was Circumcision, not John's baptisms. Circumcision served the purpose of bringing people into Israel. They became children of God via the rite of circumcision. Paul clearly makes this comparison in Col 2.

John the Baptist says that another will come and baptize - with the Spirit. How does Christ do this? Through the Apostles and those who followed them when they baptize with water, over and over in Acts, for example.

And finally, what did Peter tell the first crowd he spoke to after the Holy Spirit came upon them?

Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Quite clearly, by being baptized, (which implies someone would dunk them in water, not something they could do alone), they would THEN receive the Spirit. Thus, this baptism was SUPERIOR to what the Jews were doing with John's baptisms...

The baptism that brought all of us (past tense) forgiveness of sins is the baptism that Jesus, as our representative, underwent for all of us. Remember what He said in Luke 12:50? (This is also the “birth of water†that Jesus spoke of in John 3:5)

Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am
until it is completed! (NIV)

This is not the "birth of water" that He spoke of, since water was not involved in His upcoming Passion and Death, which is what He was speaking of in Luke's Gospel.

Our Lord also spoke of this baptism or washing to Peter in John 13:6-11


6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are
you going to wash my feet?"
7 Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing,
but later you will understand."
8 "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered,
"Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
9 "Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my
hands and my head as well!"
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to
wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean,
though not every one of you."
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was
why he said not every one was clean.


Commentaries on the above verses and Christ’s own comments in John 13:12-17, speak of the washing of the disciples’ feet as an act/lesson in humility and something we should emulate and that is true; BUT Christ, in John 13:7 by His comments to Peter, also lets us know that there is more to these verses than the obvious. When Jesus told Peter, in verse 10, that he was “clean,†Jesus was speaking of a spiritual cleansing. We can see this because of the comments that follow in verse 11. Therefore, the “washing of the feet†that Peter (and the rest of the apostles, as well as the whole world) needed was not a physical washing but a spiritual washing.

You've done a fine job of doing my work for me!

Unless Peter ACTUALLY was BATHED WITH WATER, he would not become clean...

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. John 13:8

Same with Christian water baptism. Unless you actually get wet, you have not become spiritually clean... Clearly, the Apostles remembered this lesson only a few months later, as they told the Jews they TOO must be baptized - BEFORE receiving the Spirit - in Acts 2:38.

Therefore, here is the GOOD News!! We have all been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb, forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God. Rom 5:9 1, Pet 1:2, Rev 1:5.

Yes, those who have not rejected our Lord and subject themselves to baptism by water and the Spirit, as our Lord did when He first began His ministry.

This is the justification from all of our PAST transgressions and this is the regeneration (birth) of water that Jesus was speaking of to his apostles in John Chap 13. Have all been saved then?? NO! Remember Jesus said we must be born “of water AND of the Spirit.†The regeneration (birth) of the Spirit happens when we believe the GOOD News and God gives us His Holy Spirit.

Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39

Notice that even the Eunuch knew he had to do more than just "believe". First, one believes. THEN, they become baptized and receive the Spirit.

Yes, regeneration occurs when we believe in the Lord and are baptized. The two are inexorably linked in Scriptures, by Christ as well.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Regards

 

[dan p]

Hi francisdesales , there are many , many Christians who do not believe in Christian baptism.

1) The gospels are still under the LAW of Moses .

2) This is just one of MANY examples ; in John 7:23 , we see that they , the Jews are still required to perform Circumcision .

3) In Matt 11:13 , For all the prophets and the Law of Moses , prophesied UNTIL John .

4) There is not one verse in the gospels that SPEAKS of Christian Baptism . Not one .

5) And can you show a verse that speaks about Christians , in the gospels ?

6) I will and have already shown that THEY are all Jews , and just look at the first chapter of Acts .

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francisdesales , there are many , many Christians who do not believe in Christian baptism.

How is a person a "Christian" who does not obey Christ and His REVELATION that one must be born again, in water and in Spirit? Just curious. At what point can one pick and choose what to believe and still call themselves Christian? If you consider reading the later parts of the NT, you'll find that those who taught different doctrines then the Apostels were NOT considered part of the elect, part of Christ.

This may sound harsh, but the truth is often black and white, rather than gray and ambiguous. This is why the Church preaches the necessity of being baptized. It is not open to vote or review.

1) The gospels are still under the LAW of Moses .

When the Gospels were written, the Law of Moses was abrogated, says Paul. During the time related, the Jews and the Disciples were still under the Law, as the Christ had not begun the New Covenant. Hebrews speaks very clearly about the end of the old law.

This is just one of MANY examples ; in John 7:23 , we see that they , the Jews are still required to perform Circumcision .

This was relating a time BEFORE Christ died. Once He died, a New Law, a New Covenant took affect, making the Old Law just that; old.

4) There is not one verse in the gospels that SPEAKS of Christian Baptism . Not one .

What is it with Sectarians? Why are you making such statements - NEVER??? Clearly, you have not read all of the bible to miss these, among others:

While Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, that also on the Gentiles the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 10:44-47

Being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is NOT the Baptism of John. Note, the Spirit came upon the person and they were baptized. The two are combined into one event.

Philip opened his mouth and began at the same scripture and preached unto him the gospel of Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what hinders me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou dost believe with all thine heart, thou may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they went both down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. Acts 8:35-38

Perhaps your sectarian bible doesn't have these verses, but there they are. Being baptized in the name of Christ. Note, the Spirit's presence and water:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Unless a man is born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Those who outright REJECT God's command cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Despite your most ardent desires, it is God who makes the rules here, saving whom He wills. Many will say 'Lord, Lord' and Christ will say "I never knew you". (cf Mat 7:21) Why? Because such did not do the will of the Father - to be baptized so as to enter the Kingdom...

This is serious stuff, rejecting what the Scriptures say.

And finally, the COMMAND to baptize - Christian baptisms...

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Matt 28:19

5) And can you show a verse that speaks about Christians , in the gospels ?

See above. I don't see how this is pertinent anyway, because the Spirit had not yet been poured out. Have you not read the Last Supper Discourse of Christ in John's Gospel? Jesus discussion about the sending of the Advocate and Jesus' subsequent leaving so the Advocate could come???

Can you explain your reasoning behind why there must be mention of a Christian baptism in the Gospels while Christ had not yet implemented the New Covenant or had sent the Spirit to mankind???

6) I will and have already shown that THEY are all Jews , and just look at the first chapter of Acts .

[/quote]

After accepting Jesus, they become Christians, my friend! Or do you think Peter was Jewish and not Christian?

Who was Peter speaking about, if not him and the followers he had converted here?

But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God on this behalf 1 Peter 4:16

Did these people follow something different than what Christ taught the Apostles?

For he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith, and many people were added unto the Lord. Then Barnabas departed to Tarsus to seek Saul, and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass that for a whole year they gathered themselves together with the church and taught many people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch Acts 11:24-26

Not sure I understand your point, but a follower of Christ who was baptized, believed in the doctrines taught by the Apostles and broke bread together were considered Christians.

Regards

 

[sonlite101]

sonlite101,
I don't know what opens the door for other people, I'm not them. There is no way I can say a baptism wasn't joined with the baptism of the Holy Spirit for any one person. But this I do know, not every baptism I've witnessed was.
I've also known others to pray that Christ come into their life. But not every prayer is accompanied by the Holy Spirit.
I've known people to answer what's named altar call to receive Christ into their life. But not everyone going forward was touched by the Holy Spirit.

A belief of baptism as the way to call on God to be saved is no more a deception then those who preach the "saving" prayer or pastors who announce altar call at the end of a service. If the Holy Spirit isn't there it's not going to work. It's NOT our call. Nor are any of these three common practices deception since none of them ever get 100% results anyway.

This is exactly why I will not judge anyone believing baptism is the way to go or someone telling somebody to pray for salvation or the pastor announcing altar call. All of these are a belief to the way to salvation and I honestly don't see any one of them getting any more results than the others. When it comes right down to it there's just a lot more going on than we're privy to regardless if we take action in belief or if we're called in the same manner as Paul on his way to Damascus. Therefore I can honestly say I don't know what opens the door for other people.

I took my baptism very seriously. It was indeed a high point in my walk for I would never have given thought to doing such a thing before I was saved. Likewise I partake in Communion just as seriously in praise of what Jesus Christ did for this undeserving soul.

Believe as your heart tells you but also allow others the same liberty because no matter what we do or don't do at the end of the day the Lord our God remains sovereign.

Rick,

I’ve already agreed with you that we need to allow others liberty to experience the water baptism ceremony, or any other rite, if they so desire. I certainly do not pass judgment on anyone wanting to do that, and there is nothing in my previous posts to give anyone that idea.

What I have judged, if you want to use that word, is the notion or doctrine that water baptism is necessary for salvation. This is a false gospel. And I have stated the biblical reasons why.

And certainly, God can birth any person of His Holy Spirit at any time He wishes, regardless of, but not because of: the semantics used, whether they walk down to the altar or not, or whether they are being immersed, or sprinkled, etc. Our God will execute the new birth because He will be looking on the believer’s heart.

What puzzles me in your post though is the following statement you made:

Therefore I can honestly say I don't know what opens the door for other people.

I really believe that you do know Rick but didn’t stop to think about it at the time you wrote this.

The only thing that “opens the door†according to our Lord is what He said in John 6:28-29

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (NIV)

And we have liberty in Christ to express that belief by being baptized in water or not, walking to the altar or not, saying a prayer out loud or not, but most certainly our actions or lack of them should not be credited with being what saves us. God is the One who saves!

sonlite101

 

[sonlite101]

.....................Yes, regeneration occurs when we believe in the Lord and are baptized. The two are inexorably linked in Scriptures, by Christ as well.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Regards

Thank you for your detailed response Francis. I see that you hold very firmly to the prevailing dogma that mainline protestant denominations and the catholic church espouse.

However, I stated my view of water baptism by providing biblical verses that support what I believe. You, however, interpret those same scriptures very differently--so there we are.

We’ll let the Holy Spirit witness or confirm to those reading this thread where the truth of His Word lies.

The Lord bless you.
Sonlite101

 

[XTruth]

The author is speaking of the Old Testament rituals and laws, which later, the author tells us cannot clear the worshippers' good conscience - while the New Covenant does. Baptism is not mentioned as part of the OT Law. Anywhere. Can you show me a verse from the Torah that tells us that men must be baptized? When does Moses perform Baptisms?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. :crazy :biglol

 

[Rick W]

sonlite101,
Good post. Thank you VERY much for your clarification.

What puzzles me in your post though is the following statement you made:

Therefore I can honestly say I don't know what opens the door for other people.

I really believe that you do know Rick but didn’t stop to think about it at the time you wrote this.

The only thing that “opens the door†according to our Lord is what He said in John 6:28-29

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (NIV)

sonlite101

"The only thing that “opens the door†according to our Lord is what He said in John 6:28-29"
Absolutely! :yes

But then we get into what turns unbelief into belief within the heart of the unbeliever. I've heard it described as "something clicked" and other things of that nature. Oftentimes people can put themselves into a position where they know they can be more receptive as in "what opens the door for other people". They still have to enter that door, take that step but the situation they place themselves in works like a catalyst of sorts.
I'm trying to describe something I've witnessed and it's not easy. For me there was no decision. I wasn't seeking God, things were going rather well (so I thought in an unbeliever's manner), I had a good job, single, no child support or major financial worries etc. And at the time I wasn't stoned.
I never made that "saving decision" but I do know people who have.
And they'll attend church to:
Answer altar call
or
Be baptized
or
Be led in the "saving prayer"
or
what have you.

Then it happens. Not all the time of course but once in while that certain something in them "clicks" and you can see it in their face. Gives me goose bumps every time I see it and tears run down my face even if I don't know them.

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you for your detailed response Francis. I see that you hold very firmly to the prevailing dogma that mainline protestant denominations and the catholic church espouse.

However, I stated my view of water baptism by providing biblical verses that support what I believe. You, however, interpret those same scriptures very differently--so there we are.

We’ll let the Holy Spirit witness or confirm to those reading this thread where the truth of His Word lies.

The Lord bless you.
Sonlite101

OK. I do ask you to consider, when reading Scriptures, to keep several things in mind. This may help you understand God's Word better...

First, when interpreting a verse(s), one must take the context into consideration.
Second, the entire Scriptures speak of Christ, either directly, or indirectly and in a spiritual sense.
Third, not everyone has the ability given from the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scriptures correctly. The Scriptures themselves testify to this.
And finally, we should take into consideration what the first Christians THEMSELVES thought about particular beliefs, based upon Holy Writings.

With this last one in mind, I find a unanimous witness to the correctness that Christian Baptism means being born of water and of the Spirit. The former is the physical sign (coupled with the words of the minister), the later is the actual Power that makes Christian baptism salvific. If you like, I can post a number of quotations from numerous Christian writers of the first few centuries who were in a position to KNOW what the Apostles taught DIRECTLY... In each case, I do not find your point of view. There thus is overwhelming data to rule out your point of view, my friend.

One final question that perhaps you can answer... It is somewhat related.

I have discussed such things with people such as yourself who do not believe in the necessity of baptism in water and the Spirit. Such people "know" they have been baptized in the Spirit - but yet, these same people ALSO claim that if such a person falls away and renounces Christianity, either directly or just a gradual indifference, people of your ilk will say "they never had the Spirit to begin with".

With that in mind, how do you even KNOW you have the Spirit to begin with? If someone could later say "you never had it to begin with", what sign do you have that He came in the first place? When if the Lord DOES say "I never knew you", despite your works?

Just curious on the mentality that is going on here. I find that some "Christians" feel the need to be "baptized" over and over again. Why is that?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

When does Moses perform Baptisms?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. :crazy :biglol

LOL! Nice try.

Quite obviously, that is an analogy used by Paul to show that God cared for the Jews and His people - and they had access to His Spirit and Christ in a hidden way.

"they did eat the same SPIRITUAL meat."
"did all drink the same SPIRITUAL drink."
"drank of that SPIRITUAL Rock."

These are metaphorical ways of saying that God granted His blesssing upon the Jews in a hidden manner. Moses did not literally baptize with the intent of granting the Holy Spirit upon the recipient, a la Christian baptism.

Passing through the Red Sea is a metaphor that Christians can say prefigures baptism. What happens at Baptism? A person is washed of all sin. The slavery in Egypt is metaphorically called "sin". Escaping from this slavery is analagous to what happens to the Christian when he, too, passes through the water. Along his journey to the "promised Land", God feeds him the bread from heaven, the Eucharist. Thus, Paul makes the comparison between the literal of the OT and the metaphorical prefigurement of these events and how they point to the Christian paradigm.

To show this passage is metaphorical, consider that Peter uses the flood in the same way, saying it PREFIGURES baptism, not that the flood actually IS baptism...

once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:20-21

As I have said previously, the entire Scriptures point to Christ. Either directly, indirectly, or in anticipation of Him. That is how Chrisitans read the bible. We see Christ either literally or metaphorically in each passage. Thus, the Apostles saw in the events of the Exodus and the Flood prefigurements of Christian baptism (and the Eucharist in the former event). Paul writes to the Corinthians that Christ followed the Jews in the desert, although this is clearly a Christian interpretation, since nowhere does the Old Testament actually say such a thing.

Furthermore, the Old Testament does not speak of Moses baptizing anyone. Paul's statements are a Christian commentary on Jewish events. His paradigm is that Jesus is found in ALL of the Scriptures.

Regards

 

[sonlite101]

sonlite101,
Good post. Thank you VERY much for your clarification.

What puzzles me in your post though is the following statement you made:

Therefore I can honestly say I don't know what opens the door for other people.

I really believe that you do know Rick but didn’t stop to think about it at the time you wrote this.

The only thing that “opens the door†according to our Lord is what He said in John 6:28-29

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (NIV)

sonlite101

"The only thing that “opens the door†according to our Lord is what He said in John 6:28-29"
Absolutely! :yes

But then we get into what turns unbelief into belief within the heart of the unbeliever. I've heard it described as "something clicked" and other things of that nature. Oftentimes people can put themselves into a position where they know they can be more receptive as in "what opens the door for other people". They still have to enter that door, take that step but the situation they place themselves in works like a catalyst of sorts.
I'm trying to describe something I've witnessed and it's not easy. For me there was no decision. I wasn't seeking God, things were going rather well (so I thought in an unbeliever's manner), I had a good job, single, no child support or major financial worries etc. And at the time I wasn't stoned.
I never made that "saving decision" but I do know people who have.
And they'll attend church to:
Answer altar call
or
Be baptized
or
Be led in the "saving prayer"
or
what have you.

Then it happens. Not all the time of course but once in while that certain something in them "clicks" and you can see it in their face. Gives me goose bumps every time I see it and tears run down my face even if I don't know them.

Thanks Rick. I understand what you've been trying to say now. I believe the route the Holy Spirit uses to bring each of us to our Lord is what Jesus called the "Father's drawing."

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (NIV)

I wasn't seeking God either, but once I was saved, I could look back and see where He had been seeking me and knocking on my door to let Him in. Our God is a merciful God!

sonlite101

 

[sonlite101]

Thank you for your detailed response Francis. I see that you hold very firmly to the prevailing dogma that mainline protestant denominations and the catholic church espouse.

However, I stated my view of water baptism by providing biblical verses that support what I believe. You, however, interpret those same scriptures very differently--so there we are.

We’ll let the Holy Spirit witness or confirm to those reading this thread where the truth of His Word lies.

The Lord bless you.
Sonlite101

One final question that perhaps you can answer... It is somewhat related.

I have discussed such things with people such as yourself who do not believe in the necessity of baptism in water and the Spirit. Such people "know" they have been baptized in the Spirit - but yet, these same people ALSO claim that if such a person falls away and renounces Christianity, either directly or just a gradual indifference, people of your ilk will say "they never had the Spirit to begin with".

With that in mind, how do you even KNOW you have the Spirit to begin with?

Salvation is a very subjective experience-- simply because faith is subjective-- regardless of people who say otherwise. I know that I have been born again of God’s Spirit because His Spirit has witnessed to my heart that I am His. Romans 8:16 Therefore, I am very secure in the knowledge of who I am in Christ.

If someone could later say "you never had it to begin with", what sign do you have that He came in the first place? When if the Lord DOES say "I never knew you", despite your works?

First, a child of God does not have to prove to anyone else his identity in Christ. Perhaps you and others might challenge my assertion that I have been born again because I am not trusting in water baptism for salvation the way you do, but the bottom line is that not any one person has the authority to judge my, or any body else’s, eternal status. Only God does--He’s the only One Who looks on a man’s heart and executes the new birth.

I think you are asking the first question because those who practice water baptism for salvation believe they can point to that occasion as “the time when they were saved.†They have an outward sign that they believe assures them of having obtained forgiveness/salvation. In addition, their denominations also offer them “confirmation†later on to "seal the deal", so to speak (or maybe not; some denominations do not believe in eternal security).

About the second question, sadly, I am afraid some of these persons might be the ones the Lord says to them that He never knew them. Not despite their works, but especially because of their works that they were trusting in instead of Christ. They will be the ones that did not come to Christ by faith.

Just curious on the mentality that is going on here. I find that some "Christians" feel the need to be "baptized" over and over again. Why is that?

Because they are not sure if they have been born again or not. Again sadly, they also mistakenly think that water baptism saves and perhaps the next one will achieve the new birth for them.

 

[Tomlane]

It's most refreshing to me to see the Holy Spirit working in Sonlite with God's marvelous truth concerning grace without works for salvation.

Using the flesh to please God is foreign To God's will of putting off the flesh and walking in the spirit and I can see Sonlite walks in that instead of sinful flesh to be secure in Christ.

Its always such a joy to see someone walking in the truth.

Colossians 3:9  Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Romans 8:1  ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:17  ¶This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Tomlane

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is a very subjective experience-- simply because faith is subjective-- regardless of people who say otherwise. I know that I have been born again of God’s Spirit because His Spirit has witnessed to my heart that I am His. Romans 8:16 Therefore, I am very secure in the knowledge of who I am in Christ.

It appears that you are contradicting yourself. First, you say salvation is subjective, depending upon the emotions and feelings of the recipient of salvation. I do not find such ideas in Scriptures. Salvation is certain, which you then say at the end of your post here. There is no subjectivity about it. The forgiveness of sins is CERTAIN, otherwise, we become scrupulous and question whether our salvation "took". Such ideas do not lead to security and peaceful hope, but rather, dissension and disquiet.

Salvation is a certainty. Those who are baptized KNOW they have been freed from sin. There is no doubt. Faith is subjective only in quality. But the forgiveness of sins does not depend upon a perfect faith. It depends upon our calling upon our Savior to help, as Peter did when called to walk upon water and HIS faith faltered.

And of course, what happens if you later sin or become indifferent to Christ? Will you then also question the feeling and emotions you have now???

First, a child of God does not have to prove to anyone else his identity in Christ. Perhaps you and others might challenge my assertion that I have been born again because I am not trusting in water baptism for salvation the way you do, but the bottom line is that not any one person has the authority to judge my, or any body else’s, eternal status. Only God does--He’s the only One Who looks on a man’s heart and executes the new birth.

He does - and this new birth is through water and the Spirit, as Jesus said.

The point is not whether you have to prove yourself to others, but proving your own actions to yourself and your conscience. If you falter, would you reconsider or doubt whether the Spirit was EVER there? Would Jesus say "I never knew you"? That is the problem with "self-baptisms" that rely on subjective emotions. One cannot be sure whether they are deluded themselves in their emotional outburst during their altar call, or whether it is God drawing one. By water baptism, we KNOW the Spirit is there.

I think you are asking the first question because those who practice water baptism for salvation believe they can point to that occasion as “the time when they were saved.†They have an outward sign that they believe assures them of having obtained forgiveness/salvation.

In reality, I was baptized an infant, as are many people. The gift of the Spirit came to me without ANY work on my part. Not even faith. God graciously called my parents to vouch for me and raise me in the faith once taught by the Apostles.

But to adults (which I witness to every year), yes, the sign is important as it brings to mind what the Church and Christ is doing in the first place - washing the person of sin. That is what salvation consists of - being cleansed of sin. There is no confusion here, since Scriptures assure us that when the Church baptizes, it is Christ baptizing. There is no subjective emotions, just objective truth.

In addition, their denominations also offer them “confirmation†later on to "seal the deal", so to speak (or maybe not; some denominations do not believe in eternal security).

Confirmation is another subject, but has nothing to do with eternal security. There is no eternal security offered to man on this earth during this life accept by special unique revelation. God always holds the upper hand and condemns those who reject Him, even those who were once just in His eyes.

About the second question, sadly, I am afraid some of these persons might be the ones the Lord says to them that He never knew them. Not despite their works, but especially because of their works that they were trusting in instead of Christ. They will be the ones that did not come to Christ by faith.

Thanks for the answer, but who can say which person will hear those words of Christ, esp. when those people "thought" they were saved already - in other words, their subjective faith gave them "security". While salvation from sins is by faith, eternal heaven is by our obedience to God prompted by the Spirit. Heaven is not obtained without love of neighbor, even if one has "all the faith to move mountains", he is nothing.

Because they are not sure if they have been born again or not. Again sadly, they also mistakenly think that water baptism saves and perhaps the next one will achieve the new birth for them.

[/quote]

Scriptures says water baptism indeed saves, but perhaps such people are not properly instructed in the Scriptures. Maybe they don't "feel" saved. However, it does appear that basing our eternal security on our own subjective faith and feelings is fraught with danger, since it is then based upon "keeping" our faith and calls into question our previous subjectivity...

In addition, those who are experienced Christians will eventually face the "Dark Night of the Soul". If your faith is based on subjective feelings and rely on them being stoked to maintain your "subjective faith", eventually, this darkness will bring about a major problem.

Regards

 

[Rick W]

I wasn't seeking God either, but once I was saved, I could look back and see where He had been seeking me and knocking on my door to let Him in. Our God is a merciful God!

Same here. At the time though it was meaningless. I could have spared myself a lot had I listened. But, in the end, He didn't knock anymore. He just pushed aside the entire house.