Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[glorydaz]

No, it's not an unscriptural viewpoint. The signs and wonders were given to attest to Jesus being the Messiah. The Jews required a sign, and it was given in the establishment of the early church. The church knew they'd ceased, and they didn't "reappear" until the early 1800's, when they were brought back by the Pentecostals. The Lord said there would be no more signs given except Jonah which pointed to His resurrection from the dead.

What the world needs now is to see the church standing strong on God's mercy and grace. We pray for healing, but there are no Apostles walking around performing miracles. We preach the gospel of the forgiveness of sins. The world is not convinced by a bunch of Christians speaking words that can't be understood. Now the church goes to other countries and speaks to the people in their own language...in much the way the disciples did at Pentecost via a miracle of God. Now we go forth by the power of the Holy Spirit and He gives us the words to speak from His Word.

Sorry glorydaz, the Apostle Paul worked signs and wonders for the gentiles. Not the Jews. I'm afraid that argument just doesn't hold up. Yes, the gifts did cease for a time. It was only when a great move of God happened in Wales and word travelled to the US that people began seeking God's face in earnestness with great passion and continuing in prayer and fasting and self-denial that the first person received the gift of tongues in modern history. With that the Holy Spirit began to manifest Himself in power and signs and wonders. I believe the sign gifts have been revived for these last days to assist in evangelism and the edifying of the Body.

No, it was the Jews who required a sign...

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Actually, Paul preached in many synagogues and to vagabond Jews scattered abroad. The Gentiles did not seek after signs. Because Paul also preached to the Gentiles does not mean any miracles he did were done on their account. Now I see you admit that signs did cease "for a time". There is nowhere in the Word that says they would suddenly start back up again. There are revivals in the church...have been down through the ages. There has also been a great misunderstanding among some that signs and wonders are in any way responsible for revivals. Being "on fire" for the Lord is not dependant on any kind of sign. That's simply, to use your word, "unscriptural. ;)

 

[DarcyLu]

Actually, Paul preached in many synagogues and to vagabond Jews scattered abroad. The Gentiles did not seek after signs. Because Paul also preached to the Gentiles does not mean any miracles he did were done on their account. Now I see you admit that signs did cease "for a time". There is nowhere in the Word that says they would suddenly start back up again. There are revivals in the church...have been down through the ages. There has also been a great misunderstanding among some that signs and wonders are in any way responsible for revivals. Being "on fire" for the Lord is not dependant on any kind of sign. That's simply, to use your word, "unscriptural. ;)

signs are still here, miracles still happen and i would have to disagree with faithtransforms on the issue they stopped for a time. there have always been miracles and we are promised signs will follow us. glory you have said that you have seen people healed, why is it so horrible, that we believe He can do even more?

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, Paul preached in many synagogues and to vagabond Jews scattered abroad. The Gentiles did not seek after signs. Because Paul also preached to the Gentiles does not mean any miracles he did were done on their account. Now I see you admit that signs did cease "for a time". There is nowhere in the Word that says they would suddenly start back up again. There are revivals in the church...have been down through the ages. There has also been a great misunderstanding among some that signs and wonders are in any way responsible for revivals. Being "on fire" for the Lord is not dependant on any kind of sign. That's simply, to use your word, "unscriptural. ;)

signs are still here, miracles still happen and i would have to disagree with faithtransforms on the issue they stopped for a time. there have always been miracles and we are promised signs will follow us. glory you have said that you have seen people healed, why is it so horrible, that we believe He can do even more?

There is a difference between the signs and wonders the apostles did during the establishment of the early church and God healing through the power of prayer. We aren't promised signs will follow us, they were to follow the apostles....else we would be picking up poisonous snakes and drinking poison. That's not what that verse is talking about. What is to follow us is the power of the Gospel message and the victory we have through Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.

 

[awaken]

I know that almost all denominations consider the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as being of the devil. That it was for the NT church only. But I would like to share my testimony.

Like every newborn believer, I fell in love with Jesus. I went to church, I prayed, I read my bible. Then 2 months later I got baptised in the Holy Spirit and went from in love to to in love and ON FIRE!!! Not only was I IN LOVE with Jesus, I was now completely ON FIRE! I witnessed to practically everyone who came within 10 feet of me, people got saved by the Holy Spirit through me, and you couldn't pry that bible out of my hand with a crow bar, I read that thing night and day and every break at work. And I understood the Word much more deeply and saw things I had never seen before.

Now I initially spoke with tongues, although I don't much anymore.

But my main point is, I just don't think satan would do something that would cause me to magnify Jesus to everyone I saw, get people saved, make me read my bible at every available moment, and make my love for Jesus even more passionate than it already was. I couldn't STOP praising Him. He became the Love of my Life!

What do you guys think?

THis is exciting to read..I am happy for you..it is nothing like being on fire. I experience the same thing to a degree. Don't let anyone steal your joy!! Once God puts a truth in you..don't let others unbelief steal it!

I was taught that the manifestation of the Spirit had ceased..but once you experience them in your own life..well..no one can convince you other wise...THe Holy Spirit confirms it!

People tried to tell me it was not from God...but I was like you...why would the devil put so much love and hunger in you for God ..and to withness it to others.

Could there be a difference between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the baptism?

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Listen, God mostly answers prayers through providence, meaning thru non miraculous natural means.


I don't believe the 'sign gifts' are valid today for two reasons. One: Nobody is actually doing them per biblical standards. So why argue about something that isn't happening?

I see that mr. all knowing has spoken. (please excuse my sarcasm)

If God provides me with $100 through my neighbor to pay my bills, that is no less "miraculous" than $100 appearing out of nowhere in my pocket. Biblical miracles were oftentimes a supernatural manipulating of natural things. If God speaks to my neighbor and molds his selfish will toward giving me $100 - He has performed a miracle. I just think your use of "miraculous" is kind of limiting.

Also, I suppose you have traveled the world and discovered that no one is using the sign gifts properly.
Or maybe you just turned on the tv and based your decision on watching one charismatic church service.

I can't give details (because I don't remember all) but I've heard a story where a man was speaking in tongues in a church service and an unbelieving visitor recognized that man speaking in his native language and understanding it. The speaker did not "naturally" know the language. That sounds like a biblical use of tongues.

 

[Dave...]

I see that mr. all knowing has spoken. (please excuse my sarcasm)

If God provides me with $100 through my neighbor to pay my bills, that is no less "miraculous" than $100 appearing out of nowhere in my pocket. Biblical miracles were oftentimes a supernatural manipulating of natural things. If God speaks to my neighbor and molds his selfish will toward giving me $100 - He has performed a miracle. I just think your use of "miraculous" is kind of limiting.

God works *all* things according to the counsil of His will. Not some things, but all things. Think of the implications of that in light of your accusations.

You honor God most when you see that, when you see God working in your life in every detail of it, even the small things. You don’t give God extra glory when you try to make a miracle out of something.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_ ... eology.htm

Also, I suppose you have traveled the world and discovered that no one is using the sign gifts properly. Or maybe you just turned on the tv and based your decision on watching one charismatic church service.

Charismatics and Pentecostals send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of the countries that they plan on doing missionary work in just like everyone else. BTW, I spent three years in Assemblies of God. I know what they call miracles. They're not miracles. They're not even spectacular.

I can't give details (because I don't remember all) but I've heard a story where a man was speaking in tongues in a church service and an unbelieving visitor recognized that man speaking in his native language and understanding it. The speaker did not "naturally" know the language. That sounds like a biblical use of tongues.

I've heard stories too. The problem is that they are all unverifiable. Also, everybody has experiences, and all of them are different. Whose should I trust? Hindu's speak in tongues and outwardly show all the same manifestations as todays charismatics do. They also describe all the same experiences associated with them as the charismatics do. Now, how do you explain to them that the charismatic experience is from God, but theirs is not? You see, Hindu's would pass your test of experience. And that's the point. Experience is not a valid test. God's Word must be the standard. And that's a test that todays "tongue" speakers have failed across the board.

BTW, faith, if you're still reading. I thought that you should know. The "perfect" has nothing to do with tongues, only that which is "in part". The passage that you are speaking of only tells us when prophecy and knowledge (understood Biblically) end for the individual, not the gifts themselves, however, tongues have no connection to the perfect. If you understand Greek this becomes even more clear. Tongues will cease, it had this built in. When the purpose for the sign ended, so did the sign.


Dave

 

[Dave...]

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;

but we preach Christ crucified,

to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Dave...]

Here's another one...

"In Hinduism, they have what is called ‘shakti pat’. This is their equivalent to what you call 'slain in the spirit'." They make all the same claims as charismatics do experientially. There are many who outwardly, at least, give every appearance to be upright, respectable family and community people who show a genuine concern for others in need.

“The most feared and revered deity in Hinduism is the goddess Kali (Durga), the wife of Shiva the destroyer. She is also known as Skakti, which means force and represents the impersonal force that occultism teaches runs the universe. The divine power-touch of the guru is called Shaktipat. This is a term used for the touch (or near touch) of a guru’s hand to the worshipper's forehead that produces supernatural effects. Shakti literally means power (so they believe) underlying the universe. The supernatural effect of shakti through the guru’s touch may knock the worshipper to the floor or he may see a bright light and receive an experience of enlightenment or inner illumination, or have some other mystical or psychic experience.†(Ellis Stewart, Bill Rudge Ministries)"

"When one has completed their 21 days fast and takes their vows,—the 30th vow is ‘I want to be your end-time Handmaiden servant’—They do so only when Shaw is present, she lays hands on them and usually they are ‘slain in the spirit’."

http://watch.pair.com/eth-gwenshaw.html

 

[awaken]

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;

but we preach Christ crucified,

to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The way I see it is that these Jews might need a sign to believe..but I believed and then saw!
Greeks seek after wisdom....but they miss Jesus..because they have to understand everthing first!

 

[Dave...]

A quick look a pagan tongues of that time...sound familiar?

"a. The Ecstasy of the Greco-Roman World

At the time of the Corinthian church, the Greco-Roman world had a multitude of gods. In their worship of these gods, it was very common for a person to go into ecstasy, which literally means "to go out of oneself." They would go into an unconscious state where all kinds of psychic phenomena would occur. They believed that when they were in an ecstatic trance, they actually left their body, ascended into space, connected up to whatever deity they were worshiping, and would begin to commune with that deity. Once they began to commune with that deity, they would begin to speak the language of the gods. This was a very common practice in their culture. In fact, the term used in 1 Corinthians to refer to speaking in tongues (glossais lalein) was not invented by Bible writers. It was a term used commonly in the Greco-Roman culture to speak of the pagan language of the gods which occurred while the speaker was in an ecstatic trance. By the way, this language of the gods was always gibberish.

b. The Eros of the Greek World

The Greeks had a word for this ecstatic religious experience. It was the word eros. Sometimes translated as sensual love, the word eros had a broader meaning. It meant "the desire for the sensual," or "the desire for the erotic," or "the desire for ecstasy," or "the desire for the ultimate experience or feeling." Their religion, then, was an erotic, sensual, ecstatic religion-- designed to be felt. In fact, when people went to their various temples to worship, they would actually enter into orgies with the temple priestesses. So the erotic, sexual, sensual, ecstatic religion was all rolled into one big ball along with the gibberish of divine utterances. And these mystery religions, which had been spawned in Babylon, had found their way into the Corinthian society...and the church.


THE INFILTRATION OF CORINTH INTO THE CHURCH

The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13).

You see, they had let the satanic system that existed in their society infiltrate the church. And with it came the pagan religious practices--with all of the ecstasies, eroticisms, and sensualities. The Corinthians accepted it all, creating a confused amalgamation of truth and error." Macarthur

And what today's Charismatic and Pentecostal churches are doing by building their theology on Paul's rebukes is recreating babylon.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

A quick look a pagan tongues of that time...sound familiar?

I'm not sure how this proves that modern tongues are false. If they were happening with the Greeks around the time of the Corinth church and yet Corinth had the genuine thing, it stands to reason that even though there are false tongues in pagan religions today there could also be the genuine thing.

You may be able to make a better case from scripture, but the fact that pagan religions have tongues and other signs doesn't mean that ALL tongues are false. If anything, Satan tries to mimic God's actions.

You honor God most when you see that, when you see God working in your life in every detail of it, even the small things. You don’t give God extra glory when you try to make a miracle out of something.

Why can't we call all of God's working in our life as "miraculous"? Isn't a miracle defined as God's intervention into our reality?

Experience is not a valid test. God's Word must be the standard.

Agreed. But experience can help point to reality.

In regards to tongues and signs being for the Jews, I think I Cor. 12 paints a different picture. Verse 12, 13 paints the picture of the church as a body - this body is composed of both Jews and Greeks. Later, in verse 28, Paul says that miracles, signs, and tongues have been given to the church (both Jews and Greeks). Verse 7 says these things are given "for the common good."
Ephesians 4:12 mentions that varying gifts and offices were given "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body."

This seems to indicate that tongues/wonders were not just signposts to either condemn the Jews or get them saved, but as an integral part of helping the church grow in maturity.

BTW, I was instantly healed when I was a baby when I was prayed for by an evangelist at a church service, to which my parents can attest. I don't say that to give any glory to the evangelist - because all glory goes to God.

 

[glorydaz]

If God provides me with $100 through my neighbor to pay my bills, that is no less "miraculous" than $100 appearing out of nowhere in my pocket. Biblical miracles were oftentimes a supernatural manipulating of natural things. If God speaks to my neighbor and molds his selfish will toward giving me $100 - He has performed a miracle. I just think your use of "miraculous" is kind of limiting.

The miraculous signs and wonders of the New Testament and the Old Testament went against God's natural laws. God established laws of nature. The Law of gravity...if you step out of a 10 story building, you will fall. There is no question God works in the lives of the believer in ways you mentioned above. Those are according to God's mercy and grace...they are not miracles in the sense we are talking about. The parting of the Red Sea...God writing the commandments on stone with His finger...Jesus walking on water...the miraculous healings done by Jesus and the Apostles. There is always a specific reason for God's miracles that overshadow His own natural laws. The church is given the Holy Spirit and God answers prayer, and His blessings like the rain fall on the just and unjust alike. Do we see miracles today? Yes, but they are not the signs and wonders we're speaking of here.

 

[glorydaz]

THE INFILTRATION OF CORINTH INTO THE CHURCH

The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13).

You see, they had let the satanic system that existed in their society infiltrate the church. And with it came the pagan religious practices--with all of the ecstasies, eroticisms, and sensualities. The Corinthians accepted it all, creating a confused amalgamation of truth and error."[/i] Macarthur

And what today's Charismatic and Pentecostal churches are doing by building their theology on Paul's rebukes is recreating babylon.

I agree. And I really don't understand how people can fail to see that Paul is rebuking them and not encouraging them. It's as plain as can be....he desires to show them a "more excellent way". He was good at being weak for the weak, but it seems some are missing his point. He comes right out and says it to the Cor. church. He calls them carnal right off the bat...... :crazy

To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[faithtransforms]

BTW, faith, if you're still reading. I thought that you should know. The "perfect" has nothing to do with tongues, only that which is "in part". The passage that you are speaking of only tells us when prophecy and knowledge (understood Biblically) end for the individual, not the gifts themselves, however, tongues have no connection to the perfect. If you understand Greek this becomes even more clear. Tongues will cease, it had this built in. When the purpose for the sign ended, so did the sign.

Dave

Dave, I NEVER said tongues had anything to do with the perfect! I said the perfection in that verse referred to our final redemption, the redeeming of our bodies. Have no idea where you got the idea that I was equating tongues with the "perfect." It says tongues will cease when the perfect has come, that is when we are made perfect, when our bodies are redeemed.

You mean to tell me you don't think the sign gifts would be of use to the church today???? Are you crazy? The sign gifts can bring in a mighty harvest. And that is why I believe God has brought them back, for the end time harvest of souls.

And I have no love for Assemblies of God. So your exprience there doesn't impress me. My pastor used to be an AOG preacher but he just didn't agree with what they were preaching. I go to his non-denominational charismatic church and I know it's real because of the incredible amount of the manifest fruit of the Spirit amongst the congregation. It is filled with people who have the love of God just spilling out of them. And the worship is amazing. We don't sing contemporary Christian music, we sing deep, real WORSHIP songs that prepare our hearts for the message my pastor brings. My pastor doesn't preach prosperity but every once in a while. He believes in it, it's just not a focus of his ministry.

And I have had an INSTANT healing before. I know it's real. I was sitting on my couch watching Christian TV, I don't remember who was on, but it wasn't one of the big names in Gospel TV. All of a sudden I felt this faith rise up in me and I asked the Lord to heal me, and he did, in that instant. Now it wasn't a life threatening condition but it WAS a very PAINFUL condition and the medicine I was taking had little to no effect on it. To me, that's a miracle, period. The bible says the Antichrist will produce false miracles, not the false prophets that are in the world, they will just lead people astray.

 

[glorydaz]

In regards to tongues and signs being for the Jews, I think I Cor. 12 paints a different picture. Verse 12, 13 paints the picture of the church as a body - this body is composed of both Jews and Greeks. Later, in verse 28, Paul says that miracles, signs, and tongues have been given to the church (both Jews and Greeks). Verse 7 says these things are given "for the common good."
Ephesians 4:12 mentions that varying gifts and offices were given "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body."

This seems to indicate that tongues/wonders were not just signposts to either condemn the Jews or get them saved, but as an integral part of helping the church grow in maturity.

Paul comes into a church with a bunch of carnal babes in Christ. They are all thinking they're apostles, prophets and miracle workers. He says the Apostles and Prophets were given first...the Apostles worked many miracles, tongues (languages) were spoken at Pentecost. Then he goes on to ask, Does that mean that all are "apostles? Are all prophets? Are all workers of miracles? Do all speak with tongues? He is telling them that different authority was given to the Apostles and Prophets...that tongues were a miraculous sign for Pentecost so that all that were gathered would hear in their own language. Now this group of immature believers needs to get over the idea they can do all the things others have done before them. They're to put off their old ways when they were involved in their pagan religions, and move on to maturity. So much of Paul's teaching here is about going on to maturity...putting away their childish ways.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[faithtransforms]

I agree. And I really don't understand how people can fail to see that Paul is rebuking them and not encouraging them. It's as plain as can be....he desires to show them a "more excellent way". He was good at being weak for the weak, but it seems some are missing his point. He comes right out and says it to the Cor. church. He calls them carnal right off the bat...... :crazy

To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

glorydaz, Paul said "I would that ye all speak with tongues." That sounds like encouragement to me! Then he said "but rather [seek] that ye may prophesy, that the whole body may be edified." Again, that is encouragement to use sign gifts! And on a personal note, he said, "I thank my God that I speak with tongues more than ye all." Sounds like he thought it was beneficial. He was emphasizing that the church operate in an orderly manner, not that they forsake the gifts.

Then he said there was a more excellent way, love. And that is the most excellent way. But he by no means discouraged them from operating in the sign gifts.

 

[faithtransforms]

In regards to tongues and signs being for the Jews, I think I Cor. 12 paints a different picture. Verse 12, 13 paints the picture of the church as a body - this body is composed of both Jews and Greeks. Later, in verse 28, Paul says that miracles, signs, and tongues have been given to the church (both Jews and Greeks). Verse 7 says these things are given "for the common good."
Ephesians 4:12 mentions that varying gifts and offices were given "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body."

This seems to indicate that tongues/wonders were not just signposts to either condemn the Jews or get them saved, but as an integral part of helping the church grow in maturity.

Paul comes into a church with a bunch of carnal babes in Christ. They are all thinking they're apostles, prophets and miracle workers. He says the Apostles and Prophets were given first...the Apostles worked many miracles, tongues (languages) were spoken at Pentecost. Then he goes on to ask, Does that mean that all are "apostles? Are all prophets? Are all workers of miracles? Do all speak with tongues? He is telling them that different authority was given to the Apostles and Prophets...that tongues were a miraculous sign for Pentecost so that all that were gathered would hear in their own language. Now this group of immature believers needs to get over the idea they can do all the things others have done before them. They're to put off their old ways when they were involved in their pagan religions, and move on to maturity. So much of Paul's teaching here is about going on to maturity...putting away their childish ways.

[quote="1 Cor. 12:28-31":1426oslg]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[/quote:1426oslg]

Glorydaz, he was ENCOURAGING them to use the sign gifts, as you can see from my previous post. He was just emphasizing that it be done in an orderly way. You put away childish things when that which is perfect has come.

 

[glorydaz]

Dave, I NEVER said tongues had anything to do with the perfect! I said the perfection in that verse referred to our final redemption, the redeeming of our bodies. Have no idea where you got the idea that I was equating tongues with the "perfect." It says tongues will cease when the perfect has come, that is when we are made perfect, when our bodies are redeemed.

That which is perfect is not referring to the redemption of our bodies. It's speaking of our maturity in the Lord. Paul uses the same word "perfect" (mature) several times and it always refers to the maturity in our spiritual walk.

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

You mean to tell me you don't think the sign gifts would be of use to the church today???? Are you crazy? The sign gifts can bring in a mighty harvest. And that is why I believe God has brought them back, for the end time harvest of souls.

Faith, I don't see it as a benefit to the church at all. The people of the world think pentecostals are a bunch of nuts. The only harvest will be among other immature Christians who are experience-oriented, and looking for a feel-good faith. One doesn't have to be a pentecostal to be on fire for the Lord. I'm affiliated with a missions church that is on fire for winning souls through the Gospel.

I'm on fire for the Lord, and I sure don't have a problem staying that way. He is new every day. :amen

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz, he was ENCOURAGING them to use the sign gifts, as you can see from my previous post. He was just emphasizing that it be done in an orderly way. You put away childish things when that which is perfect has come.

No, he really wasn't. He was saying, I won't forbid you, but at least don't everyone get up at once. He was very clear that we should pray with our understanding. He was well aware they were immature. He was saying, fine, you kids can play in the sandbox but keep it under control. But I have a much better way, when you're ready to put away your childish things.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

He was saying, I won't forbid you, but at least don't everyone get up at once. He was very clear that we should pray with our understanding. He was well aware they were immature. He was saying, fine, you kids can play in the sandbox but keep it under control. But I have a much better way, when you're ready to put away your childish things.

Granted, Paul was trying to bring order to their tongue speaking, but the point remains that he did not rebuke them for speaking in tongues. If they were practicing something that only the apostles had authority to do then they were operating in the flesh and were in sin. That is not something where you say "go ahead and have your fun for a while..."
In this letter he didn't tell those who were sleeping with their step-mom to keep it to a minimum, he rebuked them.

On the other hand, Paul said "do not forbid to speak in tongues."

If they were in the wrong, and tongues were going to completely cease, we should see Paul telling them to cut it out completely - not giving instructions on how to effectively use them.