faithtransforms
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jasoncran said:
Me too Jason. You saw how I was putting all OSAS's in the same box. You have enlightened me on this, and I thank you
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Baptism in the Holy Spirit
- Thread starter faithtransforms
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Me too Jason. You saw how I was putting all OSAS's in the same box. You have enlightened me on this, and I thank you
awaken said:
That's not true. It is, indeed, Scriptural. It just doesn't happen to fit your personal beliefs. No such conclusion as you suggest needs be drawn...nor should be drawn. Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the foundation. Anyway, that's called a distraction technique where I come from. :yes
The Apostles were special. They were personally chosen by our Lord, and they were given special powers that none have today. They penned the very Bible we read, and their teachings and words are the foundation that shows forth Jesus, upon which our faith is based. We now have the Word of God with all it's power based on what those men saw with their own eyes. No signs or wonders of any kind are needed now...in fact, they shouldn't be needed as we come by faith in what we have not seen.
awaken said:
This sounds like you believe you have reached a higher degree of faith than those who disagree with you. You're wrong. It's amazing how many times I hear the same thing..."I used to believe as you do". God is not the author of confusion but man is able to confuse himself very well. This is exactly what I see in your case. It more than hints of pride, and that is never a good thing, and it is never from the Holy Spirit. Dave spoke a word of wisdom and I'd suggest you do more than dismiss it out of hand because of your "experience". We are never to be led by our "experiences", but by the Word of God. You dismissed the truth and insist on listening to what you "feel" is correct. That should be a clue right there.
faithtransforms said:
I don't understand how you can say crucifying the flesh "hurts".
How can it "hurt" to be in obedience to the Lord?
What hurts is serving self instead of Him.
What hurts is when we fail to do what we know we ought.
What hurts is walking in the flesh.
Each time we crucify the flesh, we should experience great joy and victory.
glorydaz said:
Not feelings, glorydaz...and I did not mean to come across prideful! I was expressing that neither side is going to give..I have been on both sides. And I am not confused! What I believe, I have shown with scriptures...What the Holy Spirit has confirmed in me...your unbelief will can not take away!
If I were to say to you...your experience(or feelings) with God is not real..how would you feel? Just because I do not believe you had an encounter with Jesus for salvation..would that make your salvation invalid? NO! My experience with Jesus is real...my relationship and the manifestations are real!! whether you or anyone else believe in it~
faithtransforms said:
You speak about traditions of men and then you go on to prove that's exactly what you're following.
You go to Strongs to gain your understanding. How about reading the Word to gain your understanding. Pay special attention to the part about being a child and speaking as a child...that is talking about moving from immaturity to maturity. That is not speaking of the redemption of our bodies. "To know Him"...that is an achievable goal here on this earth.
Here we see what Paul means when he uses the term "perfect".
He's speaking of maturity...maturing in holiness.
Maturing for the work of the ministry.2 Corinthians 7:1 said:
“Perfection†here means “maturityâ€, and it would be good to simply remember that whenever we see the word “perfect†used in this context we should think “spiritually matureâ€. Perfecting of the saints means the maturing of the saints...the process that brings the saints out of spiritual immaturity into spiritual adulthood. We are to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord".Ephesians 4:12 said:
Paul explains that he has neither attained, nor is he already perfect (Philippians 3:12). Clearly he expects to be perfect one day, but he has not yet attained. But to what is he attaining to? Sinless perfection? No. He is striving for spiritual maturity...an intimate, fully-developed relationship with Jesus Christ (“to know Himâ€). Then he says everyone who is perfect (that is, spiritually mature), will be like-minded in their pursuit of knowing Christ.
glorydaz said:
I did not say the apostles were not special..but you are wrong about the powers..because Mark said those that believe will have powers...
Are you saying that every book in the Bible was written by an apostle?
I have shown that more than just the apostles manifested the power of God..Steven, Agabus, Steven..He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)
God specifically said that He will pour out His Spirit on all types of people, God did not say "I will pour out my Spirit for 60 or 70 years until the last apostle has died".
Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever described two Churches, meaning an "early Church" (which ended when the New Testament was completed) and a "modern Church," so these terms are misleading. There is only one Church, and only one Church Age, and only one body of Christ, and therefore we are part of the same New Testament Church that was born at Pentecost.
Consider a new Christian who has not absorbed any biases from Christian friends or church leaders. Imagine that he is so hungry to know the Lord that he reads through the entire New Testament several times. When this person goes to church for the very first time in his life, wouldn't he expect to see people sometimes speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, prophesying, and so on? After all, this is the only type of church experience which is described in the New Testament!
“Perfection†here means “maturityâ€, and it would be good to simply remember that whenever we see the word “perfect†used in this context we should think “spiritually matureâ€. Perfecting of the saints means the maturing of the saints...the process that brings the saints out of spiritual immaturity into spiritual adulthood. We are to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord".glorydaz said:
Paul explains that he has neither attained, nor is he already perfect (Philippians 3:12). Clearly he expects to be perfect one day, but he has not yet attained. But to what is he attaining to? Sinless perfection? No. He is striving for spiritual maturity...an intimate, fully-developed relationship with Jesus Christ (“to know Himâ€). Then he says everyone who is perfect (that is, spiritually mature), will be like-minded in their pursuit of knowing Christ.[/quote:21i51mpc]
Do you consider yourself mature? Have you achieved this perfection? Do you know Christ as he knows you? Has the body of Christ matured to the point of perfection? Have we reached this goal? Did Paul ever meet it in this life..because most of his writings he is still in the race..still trying to achieve..So did Paul ever reach this maturity? Can we completley gain this here on earth? Do you know someone that is fully mature..not maturing anymore?
awaken said:
You may not think I know where you're coming from, but I do. I've been walking with the Lord for over 40 years, and I've had many dear friends and family who are or were Pentecostals. I've been to their services, prayer meetings and Bible studies. I've seen the good and the bad...just like I did when I was in a Baptist Church...even in my teenage years in the Catholic Church, before I was saved. I have found believers who love the Lord everywhere I've gone. I also know the difference between experience based beliefs and beliefs based solely upon the Word of God. I don't feel dead to sin, but I know I am because the Word confirms it. I don't feel like satan was defeated at the cross, but I know he was. I don't believe what I believe because it seems right to me or because some Pastor assured me it was right.
How would I feel if you were to say my experience is not real? I wouldn't feel bad, and I hope you don't just because I've put forth what I see from the Word. That was not my intent. I can't make you hear what I'm saying, only the Lord can do that. You spoke of your notes and what you "used to" believe. Now your "experience" has changed those beliefs.
Do you see what I'm saying? Don't change your beliefs based on your experiences or feelings. Change your beliefs if you see from the Word they were incorrect. It appears to me, you are interpreting the Word based on your experiences and that is never the right direction to go. It's no skin off my back what you believe...I only have concern for a brother or sister in Christ when I see them reading scripture in a way that fits their doctrine rather than what I see the Word says quite clearly. What Dave said brought a big Amen from me, and I was rather surprised you took it in such a negative manner. You immediately went to the "doctrines of men" argument, and it was so far from the case I was left to wonder why you felt the need to go there. There was no error in what he posted...had there been, I'd have understood your response. As it was....
awaken said:
Do you consider yourself mature? Have you achieved this perfection? Do you know Christ as he knows you? Has the body of Christ matured to the point of perfection? Have we reached this goal? Did Paul ever meet it in this life..because most of his writings he is still in the race..still trying to achieve..So did Paul ever reach this maturity? Can we completley gain this here on earth? Do you know someone that is fully mature..not maturing anymore?[/quote:cqex2dnz]
You're fast. :biglaugh
I'll answer this one first.
I'm alot more mature than I was 40 years ago, and not as mature as I'll be when I go to be with the Lord. Paul isn't using the term as perfect, but as mature. And, yes, I consider myself one of the elder folks.
1 John 2:12-14 said:
We each go through the all the stages of spiritual growth. I was a child for many years...seeking to know Jesus and all He taught. I was a young man, and have overcome the wicked one...through many trials along the way. I'm a father because I rest in His love, and I'm no longer blown around by every wind of doctrine. I know my Saviour and He knows me. Am I perfect? Of course not. But I'm assured of my salvation, I've had many victories along the way. The Lord is new every morning and He is more important to me than every breath I take.
Not all members of the body are mature...that isn't what Paul is talking about. He is speaking of each individual coming into that state of maturity where they are not only known of God, but know Him. I could not have said that years ago...I may not know what will happen to the unsaved, or what heaven will be like, or what every word in the Bible means, but I do know my Lord and Saviour. As far as I'm concerned...that which is perfect has come, and I'm ready to go home with Him. I'm willing to stay if my work here isn't done, but I'm ready, nonetheless.
Think of Paul...how many years did he know the Lord? Twenty or thereabouts? He didn't have the opportunity to reach old age...he was constantly in the battle, dying in the line of duty. Just think if he'd had another 20 years as a prayer warrior....we have a whole army of such men. Not taken in the prime of life but in the battle nonetheless. Now here I am rambling on....I hope you'll forgive me if I haven't really adequately answered your question, but it did make me consider many things, and I thank you for that trip down memory lane. I'll get to your other post tomorrow...it's late. Please forgive me if I've been too blunt with my responses. I can see you love the Lord and that is what really matters when all is said and done.
faithtransforms
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glorydaz said:faithtransforms said:
I don't understand how you can say crucifying the flesh "hurts".
How can it "hurt" to be in obedience to the Lord?
What hurts is serving self instead of Him.
What hurts is when we fail to do what we know we ought.
What hurts is walking in the flesh.
Each time we crucify the flesh, we should experience great joy and victory.
As I said in the first post where I said it hurts, I said that crucifying the flesh felt good in my spirit because I was obeying God. But it still hurt! Because flesh is part of you and when you deny it, it hurts. When you have gotten the victory over the flesh in a certain area, it is joy unspeakable, but there is no question it hurts to deny the flesh of its much loved pleasures. You feel glorious in your spirit, but you're flesh don't like it and it puts up a fight. Maybe you're just super sanctified, but when I deny the flesh, it hurts, it doesn't hurt my heart, it hurts my flesh, which is part of ME. After you have been obedient to God, you get the victory over that particular part of the flesh you are crucifying, then comes the joy!
faithtransforms
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Also, everyone was raised in a different way and came to the Lord in a different way. If when you came to the Lord you had already developed discipline in your life and were not involved in any serious sin, it will be easier to crucify the flesh than someone who came to Christ with serious sins of the flesh. Now sometimes, when you come to Christ, God will instantly heal you of some or all of those sins, as He did me with the sin of bisexuality and a foul mouth.
However, I was raised in a discipline free atmosphere and when I came to Christ, I didn't have the least BIT of self discipline. I was a compulsive overeater, and yes, I believe that to be sin. It took almost 5 years to get delivered of that. So it was a sin I had to keep confessing over and over to God (and was under the heavy weight of condemnation because I didn't know how to stand up to the devil back then). I developed emotional overeating as a result of childhood abuse, so it was very difficult to let it go. It had been what I thought "protected" me for so long. God HAS delivered me, although it still happens occasionally. But back when I was struggling and I really wanted that chocolate because I was depressed or sad, it was really hard to deny my flesh and it hurt. But with each little victory, there was great joy!
However, I was raised in a discipline free atmosphere and when I came to Christ, I didn't have the least BIT of self discipline. I was a compulsive overeater, and yes, I believe that to be sin. It took almost 5 years to get delivered of that. So it was a sin I had to keep confessing over and over to God (and was under the heavy weight of condemnation because I didn't know how to stand up to the devil back then). I developed emotional overeating as a result of childhood abuse, so it was very difficult to let it go. It had been what I thought "protected" me for so long. God HAS delivered me, although it still happens occasionally. But back when I was struggling and I really wanted that chocolate because I was depressed or sad, it was really hard to deny my flesh and it hurt. But with each little victory, there was great joy!
faithtransforms
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faithtransforms said:
So again, I challenge anyone to show me a scripture where Paul was rebuking them for anything but being disorderly. And LOOK at all the scriptures in which Paul is ENCOURAGING them! How can anyone deny that?
glorydaz said:awaken said:
You may not think I know where you're coming from, but I do. I've been walking with the Lord for over 40 years, and I've had many dear friends and family who are or were Pentecostals. I've been to their services, prayer meetings and Bible studies. I've seen the good and the bad...just like I did when I was in a Baptist Church...even in my teenage years in the Catholic Church, before I was saved. I have found believers who love the Lord everywhere I've gone. I also know the difference between experience based beliefs and beliefs based solely upon the Word of God. I don't feel dead to sin, but I know I am because the Word confirms it. I don't feel like satan was defeated at the cross, but I know he was. I don't believe what I believe because it seems right to me or because some Pastor assured me it was right.
How would I feel if you were to say my experience is not real? I wouldn't feel bad, and I hope you don't just because I've put forth what I see from the Word. That was not my intent. I can't make you hear what I'm saying, only the Lord can do that. You spoke of your notes and what you "used to" believe. Now your "experience" has changed those beliefs.
Do you see what I'm saying? Don't change your beliefs based on your experiences or feelings. Change your beliefs if you see from the Word they were incorrect. It appears to me, you are interpreting the Word based on your experiences and that is never the right direction to go. It's no skin off my back what you believe...I only have concern for a brother or sister in Christ when I see them reading scripture in a way that fits their doctrine rather than what I see the Word says quite clearly. What Dave said brought a big Amen from me, and I was rather surprised you took it in such a negative manner. You immediately went to the "doctrines of men" argument, and it was so far from the case I was left to wonder why you felt the need to go there. There was no error in what he posted...had there been, I'd have understood your response. As it was....
I do not believe you actually know where I am coming from. But I agree we all have our different experiences with different religions. I am not Pentecostal..never been to a pentecostal church..and know very few people that go to pentecostal church. That said...I have nothing against someone that is pentecostal..the ones I do know, I have learned a great deal from.
I was raised a Baptist..still in a Baptist church ( I know that statement raised some eyebrows). I do love my Lord..but I am still growing and learning to love Him more. I was not offended when you did not believe my experience (even though it is backed up by scripture)..that is why I turned it around and asked you how you would feel! Just because someone does not believe your experience..we still believe..others can not steal what God gave us!
For the record..I did not go out and seek the baptism/speaking in tongues etc..as a matter of fact, I started this adventure to show some friends they were mislead because they did believe it. It was in this search through the scriptures when my eyes were opened..confused at the time because I was hanging on to what man taught as the Holy Spirit was leading me into truth. It was at this time..that I got on my face before God and prayed for him to forgive me for all my unbelief..I wanted him to teach me the truth. I claimed the scripture that the Holy Spirit would teach us all truth...This is when the confusion stopped! When the Spirit started teaching me..and I embraced the truth..the Spirit was manifested in ways I had never experienced before..just like faithtransforms stated in her opening statement. I believed FIRST! the experiences came later~ I did not believe because of the experience..the experience confirmed the truth in the scriptures.
When we first hear about Jesus and all he has done for us to accept salvation...do we experience everything at that moment?..NO! It is a walk ...from glory to glory...Well when he gives us His gift, the Holy Spirit...we do not know all there is to the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives..and will not know unless we open it! I accepted that gift by faith..and I still learning about His work in me..through me..
The hard process ..is getting what man has taught out of me. This is where I am learning about discernment-what is of God and what is not.
awaken said:
It all comes back to knowing what Paul means by tongues. They have always been what they were in Acts. They are other languages. Unless one reads the scripture with that in mind, they will not be able to read them as they were written. I'll just leave it at that. :nod