Baptisms

[JLB]

Well look at the picture in the OP...
This is the site Jesus and John the Baptist used.
Full immersion is only going to be possible if someone gets a shovel. The river just ain't deep enough.
The person in the pic being only ankle deep is actually one of the deepest parts.

It is what it is. I took the picture. I was there. It isn't Photoshop or stock. Everything is as it was except for the rails.
The banks are kinda steep. But stairs have been installed. And if the river was higher it overflows the banks and everyone would drown trying to get baptized. This incidentally is the same location as where the Israelites crossed to get to the Promised Land.

The part behind the rails may be ankle deep, but the river itself beyond the rails is clearly deep enough for Baptism.


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

That the baptism that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost to the people assembled was for national repentance and salvation not individual salvation.

I see.

What scripture gives you the Idea that when Peter was preaching to the People it was for National repentance, rather than to whosoever will come?

JLB

 

[JohnDB]

The part behind the rails may be ankle deep, but the river itself beyond the rails is clearly deep enough for Baptism.


JLB

No...it isn't.
Look, was like you before I went and seen with my own two eyes what I saw. Fully convinced that it's full immersion. Then I seen .
The water isn't clean and clear. It's got twice to three times the algae that any River here in the US will have. Then the sand at the bottom is basalt sand... meaning it's dark in color too.
If I were to lay down in the center my chest would stick out...most certainly my belly would.

I like the imagery of full immersion....but it didn't happen here...and here is where Jesus was Baptized.

 

[reba]

what can moving silt do to a river bed earth quakes .. wars bombs etc in 2000 years? Baptism is symbolic really we stay under for 3 days

 

[JohnDB]

what can moving silt do to a river bed earth quakes .. wars bombs etc in 2000 years? Baptism is symbolic really we stay under for 3 days

OK...but the river would have to have widened by three times at a minimum... probably 5 times as it was when Jesus was Baptized. Then you could have jumped across the thing.

But that doesn't make sense.

There are three springs that feed the Jordan before it hits the sea of Galilee.

It's just not enough water in the riverbed to make it work out for full immersion. And if you get it narrowed enough then people start getting pulled under by the current. None of that makes sense... except that full immersion didn't happen for Jesus. He got poured over or splashed or whatever...just dunked is not possible or probable. John would have had to dig out a hole every day...but due to all the rock in Israel that isn't likely either.

All it takes is one look at the place and it becomes very clear....clearer than the water as to what happened.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I see.

What scripture gives you the Idea that when Peter was preaching to the People it was for National repentance, rather than to whosoever will come?

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Acts 2:14 " But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and harken to my words." Was Peter speaking to Gentiles that lived in Jerusalem at that time?

Acts 2:16-17 " But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and you men shall see visions, and your ole men shall dream dreams". Was not the prophesy in Joel 2 about the coming tribulation and the earthly kingdom when Christ shall rule in Israel?

 

[JLB]

No...it isn't.
Look, was like you before I went and seen with my own two eyes what I saw. Fully convinced that it's full immersion. Then I seen .
The water isn't clean and clear. It's got twice to three times the algae that any River here in the US will have. Then the sand at the bottom is basalt sand... meaning it's dark in color too.
If I were to lay down in the center my chest would stick out...most certainly my belly would.

I like the imagery of full immersion....but it didn't happen here...and here is where Jesus was Baptized.

Based on the picture you posted, the river looks to be deep. The big rocks out from the rails have at least 2'-0" of water over them and look to be in 4'-0" of water. And the water gets deeper towards the middle.

I'm sure the river may not be as deep during the dry season, but the picture you posted shows the river plenty deep enough for water baptism by immersion.

Lastly, it's not a good practice to try and undermine what the scriptures say about doctrine, based on a tourist stop and local legend in a town whose primary inhabitants reject Jesus as the Messiah as well as the New Testament as being from God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

-
And that is why Peter in Acts 2:38 is preaching this repentance baptism sermon .
If you read vs 36-39, Peter has just told the Jews at a Jewish Pentecost that they killed their Messiah.
Then he told them to "repent and be Baptized".
So, we see and hear this, and understand that this is not what we preach or what Paul preaches or teaches as the Gospel of the grace of God....."Grace through Faith", "The Gift of Righteousness".

When is the last time you witnessed or preached to a room full of unsaved jews during Pentecost, told them they killed their savior and then led them to be "repentance baptized".
Not this week?
Me neither.
But, on the other hand, when is the last time you have talked about the blood of Christ being given as a free gift, because God so loved the world that He gave it, to anyone who would by faith RECEIVE CHRIST. ???

So, we see that Act 2:38 is not what we understand today as the "Gospel of the Grace of God".

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?

There is one Gospel for Jew and Gentile.

Gentiles are baptized in water.

36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross,
40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.
41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. Acts 10:36-48

The Jews announce that Gentiles have received the Gospel just as they did...

REPENTANCE THAT LEADS TO LIFE! Just as the Jews did.

16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’
17So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life. Acts 11:16-18

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Acts 2:14 " But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and harken to my words." Was Peter speaking to Gentiles that lived in Jerusalem at that time?

The Jews heard the Gospel first, as it was some ten years later before the house of Cornelius heard the same Gospel.

The Gospel was preached to "whoever believes" among the Jews for the first few years, then to the whole whole.

It was up to each person among the Jews who first heard the Gospel, to believe and be Baptized.

Likewise, it was the same for Gentiles.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Acts 15:15-17 is a reference to Amos 9:11 " In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it up as in the days of old." The house of Israel was looking for the earthly kingdom. It was they who crucified their messiah and on the day of Pentecost the Jewish leaders ask "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This was a situation in which they had not answer.

It was about 17 years after Pentecost that Paul began to preach to the Gentiles. In Acts 13:2 the Holy Ghost said "separate Barnabas and Saul(Paul) for the work whereunto I have called them". In verse 46, Acts 13, Paul said to the Jews " but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Reading Acts 2:14-39 is an appeal to the whole house of Israel.

In Acts 15:8-9 Peter made this statement " And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us.
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

All this was said at the council at Jerusalem

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Acts 15:15-17 is a reference to Amos 9:11 " In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it up as in the days of old." The house of Israel was looking for the earthly kingdom. It was they who crucified their messiah and on the day of Pentecost the Jewish leaders ask "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This was a situation in which they had not answer.

It was about 17 years after Pentecost that Paul began to preach to the Gentiles. In Acts 13:2 the Holy Ghost said "separate Barnabas and Saul(Paul) for the work whereunto I have called them". In verse 46, Acts 13, Paul said to the Jews " but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Reading Acts 2:14-39 is an appeal to the whole house of Israel.

In Acts 15:8-9 Peter made this statement " And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us.
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

All this was said at the council at Jerusalem

Yes. One Gospel for Jew and Gentile.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes. One Gospel for Jew and Gentile.
JLB

AMen!

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes. One Gospel for Jew and Gentile.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer, here

How did Peter's preaching differ from that of John the Baptist? "Be baptized for the remission of sins". Peter's preaching was an indictment against the Jews: Acts 2:22-23, and Acts 2:36. Did Peter preach "the glory of the cross" as did Paul? Paul preach faith in the cross as a means of salvation, not an indictment.

Acts 3:19 Peter preached " Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God. He didn't preach the cross as an indictment, but it was the cross and faith in the cross brought salvation by grace.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer, here

How did Peter's preaching differ from that of John the Baptist? "Be baptized for the remission of sins". Peter's preaching was an indictment against the Jews: Acts 2:22-23, and Acts 2:36. Did Peter preach "the glory of the cross" as did Paul? Paul preach faith in the cross as a means of salvation, not an indictment.

Acts 3:19 Peter preached " Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God. He didn't preach the cross as an indictment, but it was the cross and faith in the cross brought salvation by grace.

So you believe there is a Gospel for the Jews, and another different Gospel for Gentiles?

 

[Jim Parker]

View attachment 9631

 

[dirtfarmer]

So you believe there is a Gospel for the Jews, and another different Gospel for Gentiles?

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

There is the Gospel of the kingdom which has been preached when Christ walked in the Holy Land and will be preached to the Jews during the 1000 year reign.

(1 Thessalonians 4:17)The church will have been "caught up" 7 years prior to the kingdom that was promised to the children of Israel. The Gospel of the kingdom is "he that endureth unto the end will be saved. The gospel that is preached during this age is believe and you will be saved now. The believer is now an heir and co-heir with Jesus Christ. We that have believed are not part of this world but are sojourners here. Our citizenship is in heaven.

 

[ezrider]

Based on the picture you posted, the river looks to be deep. The big rocks out from the rails have at least 2'-0" of water over them and look to be in 4'-0" of water. And the water gets deeper towards the middle.

Yes, trust what your eyes tell you from a picture JLB, and just ignore what the guy who took the picture actually tells you. Now what the river was like 2000 years ago, who knows? But with God.....All things are possible! Just trust what you see with your own eyes.

 

[JLB]

Yes, trust what your eyes tell you from a picture JLB, and just ignore what the guy who took the picture actually tells you. Now what the river was like 2000 years ago, who knows? But with God.....All things are possible! Just trust what you see with your own eyes.

I trust what the scriptures say.

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
Matthew 3:16

What does came up from the water mean to you?

I also can plainly see from the picture, the river is plenty deep for Baptism.

JLB

 

[JLB]

And again -

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39

... went down into the water,


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

The banks of the river are at least 4 feet deep. Some are almost vertical...but in many spots it's higher and in some it's more sloped.