Baptisms

[JohnDB]

Well a person has to climb down a steep four foot or better embankment to get to the water.
So "going down to the river" has its place in scripture as not all places have such steep banks. Meaning that Yardinet is likely the actual location of the baptism of Christ.

However it was done, what is obvious is that Jesus got wet.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The resurrection/rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord.

All His people, both those who have died and are resurrected, and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him in the air.

Nobody left on earth to persecute.

At this same coming of the Lord to gather His people, the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of this very same coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Who are "His people"? The rapture is when Christ comes in the air, the resurrection is when Christ sets his foot on Mount Sion.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Who are "His people"? The rapture is when Christ comes in the air, the resurrection is when Christ sets his foot on Mount Sion.

His people, the Church, the saints.

All His people in heaven and on earth, are gathered together to be with the Lord as He is coming from heaven to earth, whereby His feet will stand on the mount of Olives.

The resurrection comes a moment before the rapture, in which the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive are remain will be caught together, to meet the Lord in the air.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The resurrected ones together with the raptured one are all together with the Lord in the air... At His coming.

That's the end of any persecution for His people. All that left is the destruction of the wicked.

The antichrist himself is destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

The resurrection and rapture are ONE EVENT, that happens at His coming... The very same coming that destroys the antichrist and the wicked.

Brother, it's not going to get any plainer and clearer than that.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

That's all His people... Those who have died, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up together.


Please tell me you understand this all important foundational truth.


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Who are "His people"? The rapture is when Christ comes in the air, the resurrection is when Christ sets his foot on Mount Sion.

Brother, when Christ returns to earth from heaven, he is going to be in the air and be coming on the clouds of heaven, whereby every eye will see Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Him.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

His people, the Church, the saints.

All His people in heaven and on earth, are gathered together to be with the Lord as He is coming from heaven to earth, whereby His feet will stand on the mount of Olives.

The resurrection comes a moment before the rapture, in which the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive are remain will be caught together, to meet the Lord in the air.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The resurrected ones together with the raptured one are all together with the Lord in the air... At His coming.

That's the end of any persecution for His people. All that left is the destruction of the wicked.

The antichrist himself is destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

The resurrection and rapture are ONE EVENT, that happens at His coming... The very same coming that destroys the antichrist and the wicked.

Brother, it's not going to get any plainer and clearer than that.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

That's all His people... Those who have died, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up together.


Please tell me you understand this all important foundational truth.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

What I understand is that during the rapture, the Church, is going up to meet the Lord in the air and the marriage of the bride and bride groom will happen during that 7 year time. At his second coming to the earth he will sit on the throne of David, which will be in the temple, to judge the nations as to how they treated his earthly people during the tribulation. Then the earthly kingdom that is promised to his earthly people, the Jews, will be established and the 144,000 of the 12 tribes will be a kingdom of priests to fulfill Matthew 28:18-20

 

[dirtfarmer]

Brother, when Christ returns to earth from heaven, he is going to be in the air and be coming on the clouds of heaven, whereby every eye will see Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Him.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

His coming is with the clouds. What do you think "the clouds" are?

 

[JLB]

What I understand is that during the rapture, the Church, is going up to meet the Lord in the air and the marriage of the bride and bride groom will happen during that 7 year time.

What I understand is that during the rapture, the Church, is going up to meet the Lord in the air...

This is biblically correct.

...and the marriage of the bride and bride groom will happen during that 7 year time.


12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:12-13

Coming - Strong's G3952 - parousia

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.
      

The coming of the Lord to resurrect the dead in Christ, and rapture those who are alive and remain is one event.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This event happens at the coming [arrival, manifestation, physical appearing] of the Lord, and is referred to as, the "gathering", in which His people are all gathered together unto Him.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1


Please tell me you understand that the resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming, so that we can go on and discuss the rest of the scriptures about this subject together and be in agreement about the resurrection/rapture at the coming of the Lord.

Caught up together with them in the clouds is very clear, and shows us the resurrected ones, and the raptured ones are caught up together to be with the Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

His coming is with the clouds. What do you think "the clouds" are?

The clouds of heaven.

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

What I understand is that during the rapture, the Church, is going up to meet the Lord in the air...

This is biblically correct.

...and the marriage of the bride and bride groom will happen during that 7 year time.


12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:12-13

Coming - Strong's G3952 - parousia

1. 
   
   
   • presence
   • the coming, arrival, advent
     1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

The coming of the Lord to resurrect the dead in Christ, and rapture those who are alive and remain is one event.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This event happens at the coming [arrival, manifestation, physical appearing] of the Lord, and is referred to as, the "gathering", in which His people are all gathered together unto Him.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1


Please tell me you understand that the resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming, so that we can go on and discuss the rest of the scriptures about this subject together and be in agreement about the resurrection/rapture at the coming of the Lord.

Caught up together with them in the clouds is very clear, and shows us the resurrected ones, and the raptured ones are caught up together to be with the Lord.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

I understand that the rapture can happen at any time, but the resurrection only happens after the Church( both Jew and Gentile believers) has been taken out.

Romans 11:15 " For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from death."

 

[dirtfarmer]

The clouds of heaven.

Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Revelation 1:7 " Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earthshall wail because of him. Even so." This was written by John who was an apostle to the circumcision( Jews).We know that John was an apostle to the circumcision because of Galatians 2:7-9. We are to "rightly divide the word of truth"

2 Timothy 2:15 '" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
We are to study all scripture according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 because it "is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works." We can't take scripture that was written to the Jews and apply doctrine from them to the church, we would be sacrificing lambs and rams, making pilgrimages to Jerusalem to observe feast days, observing the Sabbaths and the high Sabbaths, and not eating certain types of meats. Jesus is our Sabbath in which we have ceased to work (observe the law) because he, Christ, is our righteousness

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Revelation 1:7 " Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earthshall wail because of him. Even so." This was written by John who was an apostle to the circumcision( Jews).We know that John was an apostle to the circumcision because of Galatians 2:7-9. We are to "rightly divide the word of truth"

I see, so now you refuse to acknowledge what I posted from Paul about the resurrection/rapture occurring at His coming, now you are attempting to teach us that what John wrote to the Churches in the book of Revelation concerns only the Jews.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him beglory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:1-7


Every eye will see Him.. That means every eye, even those who pierced Him.

I understand that the rapture can happen at any time, but the resurrection only happens after the Church( both Jew and Gentile believers) has been taken out.

The Rapture can not happen at anytime.

The Rapture happen after the resurrection!

The rapture happen's at the coming of the Lord, in which the resurrection comes first.

Please read these words: the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


Together with them, means the resurrected ones and the raptured ones are all together with the Lord in the clouds, in the air.


...the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Why do you keep avoiding, acknowledging this truth?



JLB

 

[JLB]

So "going down to the river" has its place in scripture as not all places have such steep banks. Meaning that Yardinet is likely the actual location of the baptism of Christ.

What does "going down to the river" have to do with this subject?


The scripture says of Baptism: both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now when they came up out of the water,...


36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:36-38

and again

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:16


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

What does "going down to the river" have to do with this subject?


The scripture says of Baptism: both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now when they came up out of the water,...


36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:36-38

and again

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:16


JLB

It's an idiom of speech that is understandable if you do not have a precise theological position to defend against a mountain of evidence that says something different from that precise position.

 

[JLB]

It's an idiom of speech that is understandable if you do not have a precise theological position to defend against a mountain of evidence that says something different from that precise position.

Sounds like mumbo jumbo, with no scripture to back up what you say.

You have a river that plainly shows it to be 4' - 6' deep, which you are trying to convince everyone here it's only 6" deep, and from this we are supposed to throw out traditional Baptism by immersion, and embrace water sprinkling for Baptism.2


Here are some literal scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit, which establish Church Doctrine, of which, "sprinkling" for Baptism is not among them.

The scripture says of Baptism: both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now when they came up out of the water,...


36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:36-38

and again

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:16


JLB

 

[williamt]

Your examples say nothing about immersion.

Heb. 9:9-10,13-14, “Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings (baptismois), regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation . . . 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The Greek word ‘baptismois’ comes from baptizo, and then the author of Hebrews goes on to give an illustration of an example of those ‘washings’ in the Old Testament by priests sprinkling blood. It would appear that baptism, at least in this instance, is used in the context of sprinkling.

Also note Ezekiel 36:25-27 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.a]">[a]

You may also consider Nebuchadnezzar being baptized in the dew or the Israelites being baptized in the midst of the Red Sea. Are you arguing that Nebuchadnezzar was immersed in the dew?

By making such a literalistic case for a figurative example of the mode of baptism (immersion) I think you are treading on dangerous grounds. Baptism doesn't necessarily mean regeneration has taken place, I'm sure you'll agree that one can be made wet through immersion and profess faith in a church, but that does not save anyone. Unless you're arguing for baptismal regeneration like the Catholics? And unless you're arguing that no adult in your very own church that was made wet and professed faith never later denounced the faith?

Lastly, the preferred mode of baptism is just that, a preference, and a tradition, which I don't have a problem with. We all have our traditions, I like pews rather than chairs, but I think we need heed caution when traditionalist begin dictating what is only acceptable.

Just some thoughts,
God bless,
William

 

[reba]

JLB First i dont care one way or the other just how Jesus was baptized... A couple of options come to mind .. The water poured over Him like the oil that was poured over David and the others.. Let me ask you this ... if one is in the water up to their ankles are they in to the water? and as ones walks out of the river up the bank have they come up out of the water?
remember i believe being dunked is the proper way mostly i believe that from tradition ... The scriptures sure dont speak of a baptistery

 

[dirtfarmer]

I see, so now you refuse to acknowledge what I posted from Paul about the resurrection/rapture occurring at His coming, now you are attempting to teach us that what John wrote to the Churches in the book of Revelation concerns only the Jews.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him beglory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:1-7


Every eye will see Him.. That means every eye, even those who pierced Him.





The Rapture can not happen at anytime.

The Rapture happen after the resurrection!

The rapture happen's at the coming of the Lord, in which the resurrection comes first.

Please read these words: the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


Together with them, means the resurrected ones and the raptured ones are all together with the Lord in the clouds, in the air.


...the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Why do you keep avoiding, acknowledging this truth?



JLB

hello JBL, dirtfarmer here

I attempt to teach no one and I accept no teaching from anyone. I compare scripture with scripture to see if what others say stands up to scripture compared with scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

It is to the Jews that God promised that they would be a kingdom of priest. Exodus 19:6 " And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priest, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

The Church( body of believers) was a mystery and Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was who God revealed this to. Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God unto both Jews and Gentiles.

Since Christ is our savior and we are to be caught up to meet him in the air, so shall we ever be with him, why in Revelation 1:7 are they also that pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth going to wail because they see him?

Revelation 1:7 is a fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 " And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one that mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is bitterness for his firstborn." If the rapture and resurrection are the same, why are they mourning. Are not there those of the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem that have anything to be joyous about.

 

[Mike]

This discussion is pertaining to baptism. Christ's return and/or the rapture is off topic enough to be a separate thread in the End Times Forum. :yes

 

[JLB]

Also note Ezekiel 36:25-27 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Is the "I" in these passages God Himself, or the Pastor who is performing a baptism.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

They went down into the Red Sea, and came up on the other side, have passed through death unto life.

If the Red Sea wasn't deep enough to cover over the Egyptians to wipe them out, then the OP may have a point.

Your examples say nothing about immersion.

So going down into the water, means sprinkled with water to you?

And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:36-38

and again

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:16

Coming up from the water, means Jesus was sprinkled, to you?

I think an honest person who wanted to know the truth can distinguish what these scriptures teach.

The is about being united with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection.

• Going down under the water, is the likeness of His death.
• Coming up from the water is the likeness of His resurrection.

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, Romans 6:3-5


Please explain how "sprinkling" a person with water does this?

Please show some examples from the New Testament whereby the Apostles "sprinkled" anyone.


JLB