but we can know them by their fruit.
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Barnabas Was Right--or was he?
- Thread starter Vince
- Start date
but we can know them by their fruit.
Mixing two different things, if I am in care of your yard and burned your garage down playing with matches are you going to continue to let me be in charge of your yard as if nothing happened? I am a christian so I tell you that I am sorry and that God has forgiven me, am I now qualified to do your yard work as if nothing happened?What? Are you saying Jesus' blood is not powerful enough to cover the sin and the person cannot start fresh and new?
The bootcamp and the test you speak of are worldly things and nothing to do with the spiritual.
Perhaps a study on John8:17 is in order.
God's forgiveness means that I will not be condemned to hell for my sin,you should forgive me as a brother, but that does not mean that you are required to put me back in charge of your yard,such actions on your part would simply be foolish. All through the bible people suffered lose because of bad decisions,a christian leader who choses to commit adultery can be a leader no longer, they should just be thankful that God will forgive them and do what they can as a christian. Today we have people in such powerful positions that they can do about anything and maintain their position,however don't let anyone fool you, God is not in what they are doing.
- Thread starter
- #24
In 1988, Assemblies of God televangelist Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a prostitute. Unable to lie his way out of it, he finally confessed. When he had been ordained, he had agreed to the AOG regulation that if he were caught in immorality, he could not preach for two years, and then could only return to the ministry if the AOG leadership permitted him to do so. While the Bible does not give such a command, it clearly does command that we are to keep our word.
Claiming that it would hurt his ministry and that the AOG was too harsh and unforgiving, Swaggart broke his word and returned to the ministry. Three years later, he was caught again with a prostitute, and he announced that God had told him to tell his followers that it was none of their business.
If you cut through the hype and read a neutral article on Swaggart at Jimmy Swaggart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you'll see that he had lived a life of self-sacrifice for a long time. Was his first repentance real? I don't know, but based on Proverbs 2:19, I had known back then that he could never be trusted again:
" None who go to her return, Nor do they regain the paths of life ---"
Claiming that it would hurt his ministry and that the AOG was too harsh and unforgiving, Swaggart broke his word and returned to the ministry. Three years later, he was caught again with a prostitute, and he announced that God had told him to tell his followers that it was none of their business.
If you cut through the hype and read a neutral article on Swaggart at Jimmy Swaggart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you'll see that he had lived a life of self-sacrifice for a long time. Was his first repentance real? I don't know, but based on Proverbs 2:19, I had known back then that he could never be trusted again:
" None who go to her return, Nor do they regain the paths of life ---"
In 1988, Assemblies of God televangelist Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a prostitute. Unable to lie his way out of it, he finally confessed. When he had been ordained, he had agreed to the AOG regulation that if he were caught in immorality, he could not preach for two years, and then could only return to the ministry if the AOG leadership permitted him to do so. While the Bible does not give such a command, it clearly does command that we are to keep our word.
Claiming that it would hurt his ministry and that the AOG was too harsh and unforgiving, Swaggart broke his word and returned to the ministry. Three years later, he was caught again with a prostitute, and he announced that God had told him to tell his followers that it was none of their business.
If you cut through the hype and read a neutral article on Swaggart at Jimmy Swaggart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you'll see that he had lived a life of self-sacrifice for a long time. Was his first repentance real? I don't know, but based on Proverbs 2:19, I had known back then that he could never be trusted again:
" None who go to her return, Nor do they regain the paths of life ---"[/QUOTE I think that that scripture simply means that for a man to become involved in an immorale relationship with a woman is a one way path that leads to destruction. JS has been a much older man for years and during that time he has been walking the straight line(as well as anyone knows)so I believe he can be trusted. I realized that when one gives evidence of failure then we need to be sensible and watch that person, however because one fails I do not see it that we should place such a condemnation on them as "can NEVER be trusted".
A question for anyone, if there was a preacher, who ended up having an affair with someone while in his supposively "called position as preacher", is that person really saved? Can we even say this person was even really called to preach in the first place?
I have my doubts.
I have my doubts.
- Thread starter
- #27
In the 1970's, while Jack Hyles was pastoring the largest church in the world, his son David was running large youth conferences and was a highly sought-after speaker. When I was in college, I worked for David, who had a stupendous personality and was always surrounded by admirers.
Unknown to me, he was having frequent sex with teen-age girls, and his youth department promoted his friends who were involved in David's sins. Dave would demote or fire hard-working, Godly college students who were getting results, and put his ungodly friends in positions of authority where they took the credit for the success of the Godly students.
Years after I graduated, the sex scandals blew up badly enough that Dave couldn't lie his way out of them anymore. Faced with the prospect of having to work at an honest job, Dave "repented," Hyles declared that the Holy Spirit had restored Dave, and once again he became a successful Christian speaker.
When a large church in my city was considering bringing Dave in as a speaker, I stated publicly that his repentance was fake, and that I would tell anyone who would listen to me that Dave was still a sexual predator. A Godly deacon confronted me about how I could KNOW that Dave's repentance was fake, and I explained the Biblical commands to go back to those you have wronged, and how Dave was disobeying all of them.
Months later, when new sex scandals with Dave Hyles broke out, that same deacon was thanking me for having spared his church from public embarrassment.
Unknown to me, he was having frequent sex with teen-age girls, and his youth department promoted his friends who were involved in David's sins. Dave would demote or fire hard-working, Godly college students who were getting results, and put his ungodly friends in positions of authority where they took the credit for the success of the Godly students.
Years after I graduated, the sex scandals blew up badly enough that Dave couldn't lie his way out of them anymore. Faced with the prospect of having to work at an honest job, Dave "repented," Hyles declared that the Holy Spirit had restored Dave, and once again he became a successful Christian speaker.
When a large church in my city was considering bringing Dave in as a speaker, I stated publicly that his repentance was fake, and that I would tell anyone who would listen to me that Dave was still a sexual predator. A Godly deacon confronted me about how I could KNOW that Dave's repentance was fake, and I explained the Biblical commands to go back to those you have wronged, and how Dave was disobeying all of them.
Months later, when new sex scandals with Dave Hyles broke out, that same deacon was thanking me for having spared his church from public embarrassment.
- Thread starter
- #28
Jim Bakker (Yes, I spelled it correctly) was an extremely wealthy and successful television evangelist when he had an affair with Jessica Hahn in 1980. His ministry continued to proper, but seven years later, he came under investigation for fraud. Among his various crimes was using donations to pay off Hahn's blackmail demands.
While in prison, Bakker made a major turn-around, confessing his guilt (although some people feel he was more guilty than he admitted), and currently runs a much-smaller ministry. But Bakker really did stop his fraud. He really has kept himself clean. God doesn't object to His children going to prison; He objects to the sins that got them there.
When Bakker eventually did produce real repentance in prison, God didn't get him out the very same day. He had to go through a period of spiritual growth before God, Who can do anything, got him out. When a Christian goes into major sin, there can still be consequences that repentance doesn't remove.
While in prison, Bakker made a major turn-around, confessing his guilt (although some people feel he was more guilty than he admitted), and currently runs a much-smaller ministry. But Bakker really did stop his fraud. He really has kept himself clean. God doesn't object to His children going to prison; He objects to the sins that got them there.
When Bakker eventually did produce real repentance in prison, God didn't get him out the very same day. He had to go through a period of spiritual growth before God, Who can do anything, got him out. When a Christian goes into major sin, there can still be consequences that repentance doesn't remove.
- Thread starter
- #29
Marty became pastor of a small rural church and within a few years had built it into a successful Ruckmanite (King James Only) church. He started a successful Christian school, and one day a problem student reported seeing Marty kissing an unmarried woman teacher.
The two denied it, the church ruled in their favor, and several months later, Marty and the teacher were caught in adultery by Marty's wife. Resigning in disgrace, Marty wanted to return to the ministry. He got into difficult, non-Biblical questions about how many natures Jesus had, and used his knowledge of this non-Biblical subject to present himself as a knowledeable Christian leader.
Learning that some teachedrs at his (former) Christian school opposed bringing him back as pastor, he sent letters threatening to destroy their ministries if they didn't stop. At least one teacher read the letter out loud at a church businiess meeting. He also sent similar letters to some people in the church.
Marty still covers his trail. He currently advertises himself as a successful Christian leader, while omitting the part about adultery.
The two denied it, the church ruled in their favor, and several months later, Marty and the teacher were caught in adultery by Marty's wife. Resigning in disgrace, Marty wanted to return to the ministry. He got into difficult, non-Biblical questions about how many natures Jesus had, and used his knowledge of this non-Biblical subject to present himself as a knowledeable Christian leader.
Learning that some teachedrs at his (former) Christian school opposed bringing him back as pastor, he sent letters threatening to destroy their ministries if they didn't stop. At least one teacher read the letter out loud at a church businiess meeting. He also sent similar letters to some people in the church.
Marty still covers his trail. He currently advertises himself as a successful Christian leader, while omitting the part about adultery.
- Thread starter
- #30
Folks, I'm not even sure that this next story is true. W.E.B. Griffin has written a successful series of historical fiction novels about the US Marine Corps. Using inside information and tales from veterans, combined with actual history, he has assembled a fascinating series of Marine tales.
After Japan had invaded China, but before they had bombed Pearl Harbor, the US, Japan, and Italy all had Marines stationed in China. The Christian Missionary Alliance had a base, and the director's wife was promiscuous, even with US Marines. A new young missionary arrived, and she seduced him the very first night. They got caught, and the husband made him sign all kinds of confessions that would destroy his ministry if revealed, and then they covered it up.
Remembering that THE STORY MIGHT NOT BE TRUE, I would have advised the young man to get back to the US by any means he could, report everything that had happened, get a secular job, and get out of the CMA. Two pastor friends here agree with me except for the last part. Bypassing their doctrinal differences, they see no need for him to leave the group.
How would you have advised him?
After Japan had invaded China, but before they had bombed Pearl Harbor, the US, Japan, and Italy all had Marines stationed in China. The Christian Missionary Alliance had a base, and the director's wife was promiscuous, even with US Marines. A new young missionary arrived, and she seduced him the very first night. They got caught, and the husband made him sign all kinds of confessions that would destroy his ministry if revealed, and then they covered it up.
Remembering that THE STORY MIGHT NOT BE TRUE, I would have advised the young man to get back to the US by any means he could, report everything that had happened, get a secular job, and get out of the CMA. Two pastor friends here agree with me except for the last part. Bypassing their doctrinal differences, they see no need for him to leave the group.
How would you have advised him?
Getting back to the original question, perhaps we should take a longer view.
Did Paul accept Mark back in ministry? Clearly yes. In Col 4:10 Mark is with Paul. In 2 Tim 4:11 Paul expressly asks for Mark.
I think Mark was shown to be trustworthy again. Perhaps as a cousin (col 4:10), Barnbas had more reason to know Mark's true character and how genuine was Mark's change of heart. Perhaps Paul needed more time to see his faithfulness.
Did Paul accept Mark back in ministry? Clearly yes. In Col 4:10 Mark is with Paul. In 2 Tim 4:11 Paul expressly asks for Mark.
I think Mark was shown to be trustworthy again. Perhaps as a cousin (col 4:10), Barnbas had more reason to know Mark's true character and how genuine was Mark's change of heart. Perhaps Paul needed more time to see his faithfulness.
- Thread starter
- #32
Now we get to the nitty-gritty.
The youth pastor of an American mega-church gets involved in some kind of problem and shows up in Mexico looking for a ministry. He tells people that he had been an insurance agent who felt called to the mission field, and over a year later, the story gets out about his real background.
How do you handle it?
The youth pastor of an American mega-church gets involved in some kind of problem and shows up in Mexico looking for a ministry. He tells people that he had been an insurance agent who felt called to the mission field, and over a year later, the story gets out about his real background.
How do you handle it?
Now we get to the nitty-gritty.
The youth pastor of an American mega-church gets involved in some kind of problem and shows up in Mexico looking for a ministry. He tells people that he had been an insurance agent who felt called to the mission field, and over a year later, the story gets out about his real background.
How do you handle it?
I think there is a big difference between the two situations.
With Mark, everybody knew what the situation was. Paul was there, Barnabas was there.
If we need to trust someone again, they have to be open and real about the issues. If they aren't, how can you trust them?
In the case you quoted there was no openness and therefore they can be no trust.