Battered Sheep

[Vince]

When a Christian is determined to go in one direction and the leadership is determined to go in a different direction, it is time for the Christian to leave quietly. It is possible that God really is leading them in different directions. But I found three reasons why Christians who were unhappy and unfruitful in their churches wouldn't leave.

They were afraid they would lose all their friends.
They feared Divine wrath.
They were concerned about doctrine.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: Domination -

I used to participate in a "survivors of Toxic churches" site out of Canada, although the victims were from all over.

Many of them were Ministers, youth pastors, and Worship leaders themselves who'd been beaten up by a Manipulative and dominating style of church leadership. "Performance based" Christianity, as it were.

I recall one lady (who was so personally damaged by her experience that she couldn't even ENTER a church building without getting physically ill) saying that she had been sick one morning, but the "pastor" of the church made the Congregation STAND for the entire 2-1/2 hours of the service, while he sat in a chair and preached at 'em. And if anybody would sit down he'd berate them in front of the congregation for being "rebellious".

Hobart Freeman (Warsaw Indiana) REQUIRED that any member of his "Faith Fellowship" - had to DROP all their insurance coverage (which you COULD do in those days), and NEVER either go to doctors or hospitals, and NEVER take any kind of medicine (including over the counter stuff) - since that was all DOUBT, and without "Faith" it was impossible to "Please God". Some estimate the "Body count" of that ministry to exceed 100 folks - many were infants who died in childbirth. Hobart himself died of a leg infection that was completely treatable.

Some of the stories of sensory deprivation, Religious bullying, Judgmentalism, and abusive practices were almost beyond belief -

BUT when you are conditioned to think that you MUST BE PART of a group who HAS THE TRUTH - in order to be "right with God" - it's AMAZING what folks will put up with - to avoid losing their peer group affiliation.

IN fact my pastor and his wife right now are "Survivors" of an TOXIC Aesthetic Group out of Chicago. She's STILL got "issues" with things she suffered in those days.

Bottom line - no "Shepherd" EVER DRIVES his sheep - he leads 'em.

Simple as that, and any time you're part of a Group, or under a ministry that teaches that THEY are the ONLY ONES with the "truth" -

RUN!!!! RUN AWAY!! and don't look back.

It seemed that the BIGGEST practical problem that the "survivors" had to deal with was NOT to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" - and to realize that there was a "Right Version" of many of the things that the TOXIC churches had taught a DEAD WRONG version of.

Bob I've been developing a thread over here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f15/church-transformation-purpose-mission-driven-church-32255/

Maybe you could have a read through and gimme your thoughts. It's directly related to what you are talking about here and presents explanations as to why it happens and the systems used to enforce control on church groups. I think you'll find it interesting.

In Christ.

Doc.

 

[Vince]

Some of the posters on Battered Sheep would explain that they were miserable in their church and weren't growing. But if they left, they would lose their friends. Three years ago, my wife and I left our local Baptist church after a small group of people seized the church. The guilty folks are no longer our friends. Our real friends are still our friends. And we made new friends in our new church.

Anyone who turns against you because you did what is right isn't a friend worth having.

 

[Vince]

The worst-suffering posters on Battered Sheep were the ones who wanted to leave, but they feared Divine wrath if they did.

One poor fellow was a member of a small church with a woman pastor who would frequently berate him and others from the pulpit, while preaching that they would go to Hell if they left her small group.

I realize that we're not teaching on eternal security on this thread, but the Bible tell us that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. You're not going to lose your salvation because you left some power-nut pastor behind. Abusive leaders often quoted "They went out from us, but they were never really of us," without explaining that the verse refers to Christianity, not a denomination or congregation.

 

[Vince]

Is it possible for God to have a church that born-again Christians MUST attend, or they will go to Hell, and they cannot leave that church?

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another

 

[Vince]

Some Christians wanted to leave their church, but they were afraid of doctrinal error.

Now Folks, I'm a rabid fundamentalist Baptist who happily serves God in an Assemblies of God church. I'll be leaving in a little while to take a load of Mexican kids to our feed kitchen, and to visit the riders of the the church van we run on Sunday. My wife and I fit in well, despite not being charismatics. Last night, the Baptist church that we had left had a very successful Christmas program, with about 200 present, and my wife played the flute during one of the specials.

John 13:35 tells us that LOVE, not doctrine, is the mark of a disciple. "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." I have been roundly condemned for attending a Pentecostal church, and yet God is blessing the church, myself, and my wife. My next statement is a surprising one, but it's true: God is allowed to bless Christians outside of your group.

 

[Vince]

On another forum, a woman wrote that her family had been attending a Ruckmanite church (The King James Version is the Word of God, and it is sinful to use any other translation). Then they found out that the pastor had molested their daughter.

A Christian friend took her to her Assemblies of God pastor, and she broke down crying in his office telling what had happened. She appreciated the kindness of the people in his church, but she couldn't attend, because his church was of the Devil.

When asked why, she answered "Because you use the New International Version."

 

[l'Chante]

I think what you are doing is admirable, Vince. I used to date a Polish gentleman while I was in England. He grew up in a Catholic orphanage in Poland and the things that happened there was absolutely horrific! He was still Catholic when we dated for no other reason than fearing eternal damnation. It is so sad how a fear can be instilled in a child that would last the rest of his life.

 

[Vince]

Folks, I've been studying mega-churches for some time, and I've noticed some oddities. Most of America's 100 largest churches are fundamentalist. But while Baptists are heavily represented, there are charismatic, Calvinist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and even a Ruckmanite church in the top 100. Many claim to be interdenominational, but their statements of faith show otherwise.

In addition, every one of these groups has many small, struggling churches in their group, so it isn't doctrine that causes God to bless them.

Mark 12 describes a visit by Jesus to the Temple, and I'm going to show what He is looking for in a house of God.

 

[Vince]

What is Jesus looking for in a church? From Mark 12:

1) He demands fruit. 2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers. Folks, you don't have to waste your life in a fruitless church because you are afraid of what will happen if you leave.

2) He expects His servants to be treated right. 4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated.
5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some.

In the parables, the servants were the "soul-winners." They were the ones who brought people to the Master. Churches the oppose reaching out to the lost, or who let people opposed to soul-winning into positions of leadership, are cutting off God's blessings.

 

[Vince]

In Mark 12 we continue to look for what Jesus is looking for in a house of worship:

3) People who respect His Son 6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, 'They will respect my son.'

4) He wants people who obey the law 17 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.

 

[Vince]

What is Jesus looking for in a church? From Mark 12:

5) People who believe ALL of the Bible 18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; 24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?

6) People of love 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

 

[Vince]

We're concluding our study in Mark 12: What is Jesus looking for in a church?

7) Leaders who aren't out for status: 38 Then He said to them in His teaching, "Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces,
39 the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts,

8) People who give sacrificially 41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much.
42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans.
43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;

 

[Vince]

One poor fellow had posted on Battered Sheep about a woman pastor abusing the congregation from the pulpit, but he was afraid he would go to Hell if he left. When he stated that it was a Pentecostal Holiness church, a few others posted in with complaints about their abuse.

Yet here in Mexico, we were friends with a Godly couple who had gotten saved in a PH church, had attended two others when they had moved, and had loved all three of them.

The point? You can't say that every church in a group is bad or good.

 

[Alabaster]

I am appreciating the things you are saying here, Vince. Well done.

 

[Vince]

Thank you, Alabaster.

Some posters on Battered Sheep told about bad experiences in Baptist churches. Yet my experiences with Baptist churches have all been good until the last one, and we are now reconciled with them.

You cannot say that every church in a certain group is good or bad. It varies from congregation to congregation.

 

[Vince]

Talk about raising an old thread from the dead.

Some time ago, I found a fellow complaining on the internet about church abuse he had suffered. The problem is, I had known him back then. Nicknamed "Foulmouth" by the people who knew him, he had bullied staff members under him, enthusiastically helping the pastor carry out abuse.

His posts show that he is still a foulmouth, and he is nowhere close to being the innocent victim he claims to be.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm new to Christianity, but it does seem that churches (it seems mostly like its Protestant churches) have the potential to do harm to their members. I know a woman who was an elder until church politics got too intense. Now she seems to have lost her faith. The church I went to while living in a small, Southern town had just split before I came on the scene. The wealthier congregants left the middle- and working-class congregants and went off for greener pastures.

Why is this sort of thing so common? Has it always happened a good bit, or is church splitting more common now than it was in generations past? I guess a lot of modern day congregations grew out of church splits, so I guess it happened, I just wonder if church life has always been this difficult.

I'm about to start church shopping soon, so I'd like to avoid a troubled church. Anything I should look out for as "red flags" ?

 

[Vince]

Christ-Empowered, I would advise you to visit some churches that hold strongly to the Bible and see where you benefit from the preaching and teaching. Unfortunately, you have to be there for a while before you find out about the real inner workings, so you need God to guide you.

As a general rule, a church that is dropping seriously in attendance and is having financial problems is going to be a troubled church, but not always. And I am careful about churches where the pastor's family is on staff.

 

[Pebbles]

Church abuse victims are often guilty of self inflicted wounds. When you have a healthy respect for the bible, and you are a Berean, how can a church really hurt you. Only when personal relationships, expectations, and feelings are over committed do these abuses usually take place. Involvement in a church is completely voluntary, and how you involve yourself is completely up to you.

How can a church hurt pepole you ask?

church blames 15 year old girl for begin raped.
Part1
Church Blames Girl for Being Raped (pt. 1) - YouTube

Part2
Church Blames Girl for Being Raped (pt. 2) - YouTube

Their are many others stories. It's an extremely common story to hear that a pastor explicitly instructs parents to disown and evict their children if they turn out to be transsexual.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender youth: An epidemic of homelessness | National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
Why do LGBT youth become homeless? In one study, 26 percent of gay teens who came out to their parents/guardians were told they must leave home.

My parents are not christian I was at least granted that mercy. So many I know cannot say that. I have an inexhaustible supply of these stories. but to post them all would be construed as an attack on your religion.

Rather than see the blood and anguish your religious institutions are guilty of you'd rather resort to victim blaming... fine...