Be Perfect - A question

[DarcyLu]

[quote="Son of Israel":3w0lc5ij]

Well Darcylu my dear dear Darcy I most certainly hope you don't sin!
To be faithful to our Husband Jesus, as a wife is faithful means being in "fidelity", the literal meaning of the word. If we aren't full of fidelity to our husband, is it because it isn't possible? LOL, NO!
Would we be stepping out on Him? I should hope not.
If we are, It's because of something else, and this would indeed be very very serious. Sinners aren't saved. If someone is sinning, they need to get themselves out of that deep doo doo promptly.

So far you are absolutely correct.

There is only one way to stop sinning.

Repent and be baptized, dying to one's own self.
Receive Jesus Christ into us as a wife does her husband and be filled with His Holy incorruptible Seed of His very righteous sinless Spirit.
Then once this happens, let Him do the rest! TaDaa!

Dear friend, Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. We dont just stop sinning because we say we die to our own self. We surely have our own part to be obedient to Jesus. Jesus does not do everyone for us.

Just to be sure, I am not saying Jesus does not help us at all. He does help us greatly. Regardless...

Dear dear shad, You haven't stopped sinning?? Oh no!
Why do you suppose that is other than because you haven't died to yourself yet and let Christ live in you?
You think Christ just "helps" you and the rest is up to you? Isn't He the King and accomplishing righteousness in you as much as you let Him?
I let Christ totally live in me as I am totally dead. He is sinless in me and anything I think say or do is what He thinks says and does. So how could I still sin?

The "effort" we make in getting into the Kingdom is the effort in "dying to ourselves" and "letting Christ reign in our flesh".

If you do that, you won't sin.

I sure hope you read these verses dear shad. If someone told you that as a Christian you can accept to continue to sin, you need to run far far away from that devil.


(Heb 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(Heb 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(Heb 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/quote:3w0lc5ij]
Yes, we must die to ourselves daily and live as Him, yet do you think it is a process? As it is a daily thing to do that and it seems it would get easier as we practice. Isn't their a practice time - lol For instance, sin, in a new Christian may sin more than a more mature one. Would you agree? They do not know it is a sin but the Lord reveals it to them. You say you do not sin but here I am God revealing sin to me and as I repent I ask Him to help me next time. Those times I do not know it's happening until He tells me - so I can not say I am without sin until perhaps one day His revealing my sin ceases, yet in your words you tell me if I sin then I am not saved.
and what is your thought about being transformed into our new bodies here on earth?

 

[glorydaz]

With this whole topic, we address the blessed assurance we believers have...
If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart.
If our heart condemn us not...we have confidence toward our God.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Being born of God is the key.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The understanding for this verse is found in the next in which John contrasts the nature of the children of God with the nature of the children of the devil.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of the devil operating out of a corrupt nature are incapable of the love and righteousness of God. In contrast, the children of God are born again of the seed of Christ, a nature that is pure and of a holy God. We do possess the righteousness and love of God.

As believers in Christ we have God's Holy Spirit (Christ) within us, and we are indwelt with the love of God, being delivered from the power of sin, Satan and his kingdom of darkness. We have been regenerated with a new nature, one that is incompatible with the hate or nature of the devil in a contrast of light versus darkness. God's seed remains in us and this is what is meant by "he cannot sin" because "he is born of God."

There is nothing that we can do to corrupt that seed or the new nature that is placed within us, even though we can still sin in the flesh....it is not accounted as sin.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Christ's seed within us is not perishable nor corruptible.... it is immortal.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

When we abide in Christ we cannot sin because there is no sin in Him and there is nothing that we can do to change or corrupt that nature that God has given to us.

 

[shad]

Dear dear shad, You haven't stopped sinning?? Oh no!

I do sin occasionally but I repent daily and I dont live in sin. The Holy Spirit will cover my shortcomings if I am doing my BEST to serve Jesus daily.

Why do you suppose that is other than because you haven't died to yourself yet and let Christ live in you?

I am committed to live for Jesus. That means I died to myself. The quality of my servanthood is up to Jesus to judge.

You think Christ just "helps" you and the rest is up to you?

Of course it is not just help, it is a great deal because without the Holy Spirit's help we cannot make it to perfection.

Isn't He the King and accomplishing righteousness in you as much as you let Him?

The Holy Spirit will help us to accomplish if we are sincere and truthful servants.

I let Christ totally live in me as I am totally dead. He is sinless in me and anything I think say or do is what He thinks says and does. So how could I still sin?

If you dont make every effort, you are still in sin and cannot accomplish it. This is Jesus' word, not mine.

The "effort" we make in getting into the Kingdom is the effort in "dying to ourselves" and "letting Christ reign in our flesh".

How do you die to yourself?

I sure hope you read these verses dear shad. If someone told you that as a Christian you can accept to continue to sin, you need to run far far away from that devil.

I hope you dont just sit there and think Jesus does all the work for you.

 

[glorydaz]

If you dont make every effort, you are still in sin and cannot accomplish it. This is Jesus' word, not mine.

If it's Jesus' word...I'd like to see it instead of just having to take your word for it.

Making every effort to ENTER the kingdom doesn't cut it.

 

[Son of Israel]

Dear dear shad, You haven't stopped sinning?? Oh no!

I do sin occasionally but I repent daily and I dont live in sin. The Holy Spirit will cover my shortcomings if I am doing my BEST to serve Jesus daily.

Why do you suppose that is other than because you haven't died to yourself yet and let Christ live in you?

I am committed to live for Jesus. That means I died to myself. The quality of my servanthood is up to Jesus to judge.

[quote:1xww0i5e]You think Christ just "helps" you and the rest is up to you?

Of course it is not just help, it is a great deal because without the Holy Spirit's help we cannot make it to perfection.

Isn't He the King and accomplishing righteousness in you as much as you let Him?

The Holy Spirit will help us to accomplish if we are sincere and truthful servants.

I let Christ totally live in me as I am totally dead. He is sinless in me and anything I think say or do is what He thinks says and does. So how could I still sin?

If you dont make every effort, you are still in sin and cannot accomplish it. This is Jesus' word, not mine.

The "effort" we make in getting into the Kingdom is the effort in "dying to ourselves" and "letting Christ reign in our flesh".

How do you die to yourself?

I sure hope you read these verses dear shad. If someone told you that as a Christian you can accept to continue to sin, you need to run far far away from that devil.

I hope you dont just sit there and think Jesus does all the work for you.[/quote:1xww0i5e]

Ah! now we see the problem lol. YES I let Jesus do ALL the work for me. You must not since you still sin you say?

This is how you need to recognize what is happening in someone who lets Jesus do all the work...

(Rom 12:21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

How? By letting Him do it all!

(Php 2:13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God doing it in me!

(Gal 2:20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[shad]

[

Ah! now we see the problem lol. YES I let Jesus do ALL the work for me.

That's what I thought you were saying.

So you are correcting Jesus' own word of "make every effort to get into God's kingdom."

You are making up your own salvation too.

take care.

 

[glorydaz]

[

Ah! now we see the problem lol. YES I let Jesus do ALL the work for me.

That's what I thought you were saying.

So you are correcting Jesus' own word of "make every effort to get into God's kingdom."

You are making up your own salvation too.

take care.

You really should get off the milk, Shad, and move on to the meat. :yes

SoI already made every effort to get into the kingdom.
Now he's in ... and enjoying the peace and rest that comes from being a child of God.
The Lord's yoke is easy and His burden light.

As we surrender and abide in Christ...He works mightily through us...preaching, warning, and teaching every man in all wisdom. This is the fruit that comes forth when we cease our own striving to earn what He's freely given, and allow Him to do His work through us.

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

 

[shad]

You really should get off the milk, Shad, and move on to the meat. :yes

So you think you are in meat stage? I think not! You are making up your own salvation. You are denying and correcting many, many of Jesus' own words. Shame on you.

take care.

 

[Sparkey]

But, to put yourself under the bondage of perfection is a yoke our Lord never asks us to bear.

Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This thread has gone slightly off-track as threads often do. Being perfect does not equate to turning away from sin or stopping sin all together. Let me say that again, being "perfect" does NOT equate to sinlessness.

Jesus never repented. None can argue this.

Consider what He meant when he said,

On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him,
"Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
And He said to them,
"Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third [day]
I shall be perfected.'

Luk 13:31-32 NKJV

Do we need to repent? Certainly. Without repentance we shall all surely perish.
Shall we be perfected? Will the author and finisher of our faith fail to complete in us what has been promised? Certainly not.

As Mark has said, as the Holy Spirit has said, as Cornelius has said, yea! As the Lord of Hosts has said, "Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

~Sparrow

 

[DarcyLu]

Consider what He meant when he said,

On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him,
"Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
And He said to them,
"Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third [day]
I shall be perfected.'

Luk 13:31-32 NKJV

Do we need to repent? Certainly. Without repentance we shall all surely perish.
Shall we be perfected? Will the author and finisher of our faith fail to complete in us what has been promised? Certainly not.

As Mark has said, as the Holy Spirit has said, as Cornelius has said, yea! As the Lord of Hosts has said, "Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

~Sparrow

Yes, it has gotten off track from the original OP. Do you believe we can become sinless here on earth? I understand the perfection part - got that down pat - lol - yet, posters tell me we are to be perfect but stop short when asked if then can we be sinless, to me they go hand in hand or am I missing something?

 

[shad]

Do you believe we can become sinless here on earth? I understand the perfection part - got that down pat - lol - yet, posters tell me we are to be perfect but stop short when asked if then can we be sinless, to me they go hand in hand or am I missing something?

Yes, we can be perfect with God's help. This is Jesus' own word. Jesus does not give us commandments we cannot keep.

.

 

[DarcyLu]

Do you believe we can become sinless here on earth? I understand the perfection part - got that down pat - lol - yet, posters tell me we are to be perfect but stop short when asked if then can we be sinless, to me they go hand in hand or am I missing something?

Yes, we can be perfect with God's help. This is Jesus' own word. Jesus does not give us commandments we cannot keep.

.

What about sinless? Can we stop sinning all together while we are HERE on this earth, and if so, can we be transformed into glorified bodies while we are here on this earth. Sort of like Kingdom come now......

 

[glorydaz]

What about sinless? Can we stop sinning all together while we are HERE on this earth, and if so, can we be transformed into glorified bodies while we are here on this earth. Sort of like Kingdom come now......

No, we will not get our glorified bodies until Jesus returns.
When we are born again, we become spiritual eternal men...carnal no longer.
We have Christ in us, so we are purified by His very presence in us.

Sin is willfully trangressing a known law of God.
We each walk in the light God gives us, and when we willfully transgress, we repent and our sins are washed by Christ's work on the cross.

Here we see Peter willfully sinning, and Paul called him on it. You can go on and read more about the principle of justification by faith in the rest of this chapter.

11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all,

Here, Paul is telling of a certain man who was sinning. The church is to put such a one out of fellowship until he repents.

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

He addresses this in a later letter...he's obviously repented and Paul is saying they ought to forgive him.

6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be allowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

 

[shad]

What about sinless? Can we stop sinning all together while we are HERE on this earth, and if so, can we be transformed into glorified bodies while we are here on this earth. Sort of like Kingdom come now......

We can achieve sinlessness with God's help. I will not pretend I understand everything but I dont believe we can transform into glorified bodies right now. God's kingdom is in the future when Jesus and His elect start to reign.

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." "Will be"

.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I think that sometimes what happens is that we assume that because we have flesh bodies, that we cannot be without sin because of the nature of our flesh.

But if we do not submit to the flesh, then we are not being contaminated by it.

 

[DarcyLu]

What about sinless? Can we stop sinning all together while we are HERE on this earth, and if so, can we be transformed into glorified bodies while we are here on this earth. Sort of like Kingdom come now......

We can achieve sinlessness with God's help. I will not pretend I understand everything but I dont believe we can transform into glorified bodies right now. God's kingdom is in the future when Jesus and His elect start to reign.

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." "Will be"

.

I am not arguing your point as my OP said I am trying to discover God's truth in the matter, the verse I keep getting stuck on is:

2 Cor 3:15
15 But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart. But whensoever it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

What does it mean?

 

[DarcyLu]

I think that sometimes what happens is that we assume that because we have flesh bodies, that we cannot be without sin because of the nature of our flesh.

But if we do not submit to the flesh, then we are not being contaminated by it.

Basically you are saying, we are not seeing with spiritual eyes only with the flesh and in the flesh this seems impossible, yet with Jesus in us we can do all things - including overcoming sin.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

But if we do not submit to the flesh, then we are not being contaminated by it.

Basically you are saying, we are not seeing with spiritual eyes only with the flesh and in the flesh this seems impossible, yet with Jesus in us we can do all things - including overcoming sin.[/quote]

Yes and I am saying that we sorta think that because we see our flesh, that we are in the flesh, and are subject to the flesh, but paul said that if we walk after the Spirit that we are no more in the flesh, so i would say then if we follow the Spirit , and as paul says are no more in the flesh- then we cannot consider our flesh an obsticle that has the power to hold us under sin.

Paul also said that Jesus set us free of the bondage that sin had over us in the flesh.

So then how can we on one hand say " Jesus set us free from the bondage sin had over us in the flesh"

then on the other hand say " but we will always sin even when we dont know it" or " we have to sin while we are in this body until we get a glorified body".

Also we should know that it is not a sin to be tempted, it is only a sin when that tempation is concieved. Only when we continue to think on something sinful, or act out on it does it become sin.


I agree very much with C on this issue. God first accounts us by faith to be perfect, and righteous. But He does not plan on us stopping there. He plans on us then walking unto perfection, growing into it, and us then walking in righteousness and growing in it.

We know in scripture what fruit is. We are told by Jesus that those seeds on good ground will bring forth fruit to perfection with patience, those who arent on good ground will noot bring forth fruit unto perfection.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

2Cr 13:9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, [even] your perfection.


2Cr 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.


2Cr 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.


We have to keep in mind here that paul is wishing for their perfection and telling them to be perfect- he is not saying " you are already perfect"that is because there is a differnce between something being accounted to us- and us manifesting that.

Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

see here we are to go on to perfection. it is the same with righteousness,.we all agree that we are accounted righteous by faith just like abraham, but john goes farther to tell us how to actually BE rigtheous.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

darcy sorry i messed up the above quote eeek- somehow i made what i said be what you said and what you said be what i said lol forgive me please yikes :o

 

[DarcyLu]

darcy sorry i messed up the above quote eeek- somehow i made what i said be what you said and what you said be what i said lol forgive me please yikes :o

hey you made me look like i knew what i was talking about no need to apologize.

thank you for your answer, i am beginning to see the fuller picture, i've been studying, too lol it's more of a process than an "all of a sudden" i am there, as we do need to practice and we continue improving, walking in faith and growing into our perfection. As our sin decreases, our perfection increases. we must decrease, so He can increase. we do this by dying to our self daily and picking up the cross daily and it is not i, but He in me. as our sin is revealed to us, we do not do those sins anymore (hopefully lol) and then our sin is no more. sound about right?