Belief and Faith

[chessman]

Do you study English or the bible?

Both, but here I’m studying the Bible in English.

I know a sentence cannot start with the word AND

Of course I could start a sentence with the word AND

this isn't a test is it?

For consistency, yes. Can you or can you not start a grammatically correct sentence with “and”?

The highlighted is why Paul was being thankful.

No, it’s a parenthetical (secondary clause) to what Paul thanked God for doing. [for the reasons I’ve posted, versus just saying it’s so].

 

[JLB]

I know. But your error is that you put an ending parentheses behind the very word (yet) that is used (inserted) to introduce, not end, a parenthetical clause.



“Yet” is a word that introduces a parenthetical, not ends one.

Okay but that’s what it says and your reason (stated below) is not Biblical.

No, Paul just told them who’s responsible for them being slaves of sin:

Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.​

Romans 5:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 5:12&version=LEB

For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.​

Romans 5:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 5:19&version=LEB


Why would Paul thank God for doing something that someone else had done?

Paul thanked God that they obeyed.


Would they have been delivered from sin without obeying?


JLB

 

[chessman]

Would they have been delivered from sin without obeying?

Asked and answered already. But here it is again. Your question assumes the obeying comes first.

Being delivered from sin IS being set free from sin which is something Paul thanked God for doing in the verse.

Being delivered from sin IS being set free from sin SO that they could obey.

Asked and unanswered; Why would Paul thank God for doing something someone else had done?

 

[MarkT]

Doesn't the word CHOOSE mean anything to you?
If we CHOOSE to do something, it means we have a choice...it measn we could have chosen the OTHER way.

My bible says DISAGREEABLE for Joshua 24:15
Your bible says UNWILLING.
Another bible will use a different word....the point is that Joshua was telling the Israelites to CHOOSE whom they would serve.

How do you explain
Deuteronomy 30:19 ??
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Again, we have been given a choice. Life and death were placed before us (as in the N.T.) and we have been advised to CHOOSE life.
Choose means we have a choice.

choose
/tʃuːz/
verb

1. pick out (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives.
   "he chose a seat facing the door"
   sinonimi:select, pick, pick out, opt for, plump for, go for, take, settle on, decide on, fix on, come down in favour of, vote for;
   • decide on a course of action.
     "he chose to go"
     sinonimi:wish, want, desire, prefer, feel/be inclined, please, like, see fit;

Yes he did. How else are you going to say it when this is the way ordinary men think. Yes in your mind you have a choice. So Joshua spoke to them as ordinary men; as men with no understanding.

But why would you want to use them as an example for us? Are we ordinary men? Do we not possess the Spirit of God?

 

[JLB]

Asked and answered already. But here it is again. Your question assumes the obeying comes first.

Being delivered from sin IS being set free from sin which is something Paul thanked God for doing in the verse.

Being delivered from sin IS being set free from sin SO that they could obey.

Asked and unanswered; Why would Paul thank God for doing something someone else had done?

That’s a question, not an answer?


Again, Paul thanked God that they obeyed.


Here is the question again -



Would they have been delivered from sin without obeying?

It’s either yes or no.


Please don’t keep saying you answered my question.

That’s simply not true.


My answer is no.

They would not have been delivered if they didn’t obey.


Now you give it a try.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Doesn't the word CHOOSE mean anything to you?
If we CHOOSE to do something, it means we have a choice...it measn we could have chosen the OTHER way.

My bible says DISAGREEABLE for Joshua 24:15
Your bible says UNWILLING.
Another bible will use a different word....the point is that Joshua was telling the Israelites to CHOOSE whom they would serve.

How do you explain
Deuteronomy 30:19 ??
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Again, we have been given a choice. Life and death were placed before us (as in the N.T.) and we have been advised to CHOOSE life.
Choose means we have a choice.

choose
/tʃuːz/
verb

1. pick out (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives.
   "he chose a seat facing the door"
   sinonimi:select, pick, pick out, opt for, plump for, go for, take, settle on, decide on, fix on, come down in favour of, vote for;
   • decide on a course of action.
     "he chose to go"
     sinonimi:wish, want, desire, prefer, feel/be inclined, please, like, see fit;

Could they have chosen the other way? I don't think so. No. This is more of a philosophical question.

The LORD told Moses what the people would do after Moses died; they would play the harlot after strange gods. They would forsake him and break his covenant which he made with them. Deu. 31:16

He even knew what was in their heart even before he rescued them."for I know the purposes which they are already forming, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give.” Deut. 31:21

So the people said they would serve the LORD. But they would not heed Joshua's warning; the LORD would destroy them if they went after false gods to serve them. So Joshua set up a great stone as a witness against Israel if they ever went after false gods to serve them.

The point is everything happened as the LORD said, so in that sense it was predestined.

Judges 2:11
And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Ba′als;
Judges 2:12
and they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt; they went after other gods, from among the gods of the peoples who were round about them, and bowed down to them; and they provoked the Lord to anger.

 

[Corn Pop]

It's quite simple.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I think it's impossible to live up to Jesus expectations. I don't even bother trying to live up to God's standards. Try holding the law perfectly. Good luck.

 

[JLB]

It's quite simple.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I think it's impossible to live up to Jesus expectations. I don't even bother trying to live up to God's standards. Try holding the law perfectly. Good luck.

How about love?

Do you feel it’s necessary to love God and love His people?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I think it's impossible to live up to Jesus expectations.

If He expected you to do a certain thing, wouldn’t He give you the power to do it.

I trust Him to empower me to do what I can not do.



JLB

 

[JLB]

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Part of believing is committing to Him, and trusting Him.


Like when we first try to ride our bike without training wheels.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Both, but here I’m studying the Bible in English.

Good. We have enough problems here without referring to the Greek, as you like to do. I haven't had one experience yet where the Greek lexicon helped.

For consistency, yes. Can you or can you not start a grammatically correct sentence with “and”?

LOL
Are you serious?
Just assume I get 100 on the test...you won't be wrong.
BTW, does your sentence require any punctuation marks?

No, it’s a parenthetical (secondary clause) to what Paul thanked God for doing. [for the reasons I’ve posted, versus just saying it’s so].

This is a silly argument...but you're so insistent...

Could you please re-read my post to you no. 218 and answer it?

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes he did. How else are you going to say it when this is the way ordinary men think. Yes in your mind you have a choice. So Joshua spoke to them as ordinary men; as men with no understanding.

But why would you want to use them as an example for us? Are we ordinary men? Do we not possess the Spirit of God?

JOSHUA is speaking...NOT the "ordinary men".
HE is saying that they have a choice.

What you're implying is that once that choice is made our free will is taken away from us.

So, IOW, you believe that we all have free will and choices to make BEFORE we're saved, and THEN AFTER salvation we no longer have choices to make and our free will is abolished?

Have YOU made any choices lately?

Could you explain Philemon 1:14?

 

[GodsGrace]

Could they have chosen the other way? I don't think so. No. This is more of a philosophical question.

The LORD told Moses what the people would do after Moses died; they would play the harlot after strange gods. They would forsake him and break his covenant which he made with them. Deu. 31:16

He even knew what was in their heart even before he rescued them."for I know the purposes which they are already forming, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give.” Deut. 31:21

So the people said they would serve the LORD. But they would not heed Joshua's warning; the LORD would destroy them if they went after false gods to serve them. So Joshua set up a great stone as a witness against Israel if they ever went after false gods to serve them.

The point is everything happened as the LORD said, so in that sense it was predestined.

Judges 2:11
And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Ba′als;
Judges 2:12
and they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt; they went after other gods, from among the gods of the peoples who were round about them, and bowed down to them; and they provoked the Lord to anger.

Do you believe God predestines everything or that He knows everything in advance?

 

[MarkT]

JOSHUA is speaking...NOT the "ordinary men".
HE is saying that they have a choice.

What you're implying is that once that choice is made our free will is taken away from us.

So, IOW, you believe that we all have free will and choices to make BEFORE we're saved, and THEN AFTER salvation we no longer have choices to make and our free will is abolished?

Have YOU made any choices lately?

Could you explain Philemon 1:14?

Joshua gave them a choice if they were unwilling to serve the LORD. In effect he is saying weigh the evidence.

What does this have to do with freewill?

We don't live by making good choices. We live by faith in the word of God. Abraham wasn't rewarded for making a good choice. He was rewarded because he had faith. The Israelites said they would serve the LORD re. animal sacrifices, sin offerings, but what good did it do them? The law didn't make them perfect.

I'm not saying anything about losing your freewill, what ever that is. It just strikes me that you are arguing for the right to sin. But if we do what we do to please God isn't that our will? We don't lose our will.

Philippians 1:14
and most of the brethren have been made confident in the Lord because of my imprisonment, and are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear.

Sorry. What's to explain?

 

[JLB]

What does this have to do with freewill?

Everything.

It has everything to do with our God given ability to choose.

To choose to serve God and obey Him or the devil.


Good grief brother.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Do you believe God predestines everything or that He knows everything in advance?

I believe he declares the end from the beginning.
Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

I believe he makes men for their purpose.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Do I believe the wicked can be turned? Yes. If it is the will of God.

Do I believe the sons of God are predestined? Yes.

Do I believe a man's steps are ordered? Yes.

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 20:24
A man’s steps are ordered by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?

Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

 

[GodsGrace]

Joshua gave them a choice if they were unwilling to serve the LORD. In effect he is saying weigh the evidence.

What does this have to do with freewill?

We don't live by making good choices. We live by faith in the word of God. Abraham wasn't rewarded for making a good choice. He was rewarded because he had faith. The Israelites said they would serve the LORD re. animal sacrifices, sin offerings, but what good did it do them? The law didn't make them perfect.

I'm not saying anything about losing your freewill, what ever that is. It just strikes me that you are arguing for the right to sin. But if we do what we do to please God isn't that our will? We don't lose our will.

Philippians 1:14
and most of the brethren have been made confident in the Lord because of my imprisonment, and are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear.

Sorry. What's to explain?

Nothing to explain MarkT.
You don't care to know about free will but insist we don't have it.
Interesting concept.

Maybe one day you'll know about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe he declares the end from the beginning.
Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

I believe he makes men for their purpose.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Do I believe the wicked can be turned? Yes. If it is the will of God.

Do I believe the sons of God are predestined? Yes.

Do I believe a man's steps are ordered? Yes.

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 20:24
A man’s steps are ordered by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?

Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

I do hope you realize that the above means that you believe God created us like a bunch of puppets and HE moves us around on a stage for His own enjoyment.

I hope you realize that what you believe means that God is not a loving God, not a just God, and besides that your belief makes HIM responsible for our sinning since HE planned everything from the beginning.

So if HE is responsible for our sinning, WHY would He send us to hell for it?

An unjust and unloving God He is indeed.

 

[JLB]

Do I believe the wicked can be turned? Yes. If it is the will of God.

It’s God’s will that not any should perish.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Joshua gave them a choice if they were unwilling to serve the LORD. In effect he is saying weigh the evidence.

What does this have to do with freewill?

We don't live by making good choices. We live by faith in the word of God. Abraham wasn't rewarded for making a good choice. He was rewarded because he had faith. The Israelites said they would serve the LORD re. animal sacrifices, sin offerings, but what good did it do them? The law didn't make them perfect.

I'm not saying anything about losing your freewill, what ever that is. It just strikes me that you are arguing for the right to sin. But if we do what we do to please God isn't that our will? We don't lose our will.

Philippians 1:14
and most of the brethren have been made confident in the Lord because of my imprisonment, and are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear.

Sorry. What's to explain?

Hi Mark.
James 2:18
New International Version
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Abraham had faith because he believed. And that belief resulted in what he did ie obeying Gods word.

Life is all about making choices. In the words Rush, if you dont make a choice, you still have made a choice!... I will choose free will.

We can choose to believe or disbelieve and we can choose to get up and go to work each day or not.

But regarding free will, we can only choose from the things set before us. For example, you cant choose to ride a pink dragon because they dont exist because God didnt create any pink dragons. In that respect you and others are correct. We dont really have free will. But in regard to the tangible things in life, we do have a choice even if those choices are limited by our Lord. God even tells Saul, "How long will you kick at the goads"? Because sometimes we are our own worst enemy.