Belief and Faith

[MarkT]

Because the verse you posted, 16, says:
Do you not know that if you YIELDED yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...

Yield, in this case, means to give way to a force. It's a voluntary action.

yield
/jiːld/
verb

1. 1.
   produce or provide (a natural, agricultural, or industrial product).
   "the land yields grapes and tobacco"
   • 
     
     
2. 2.
   give way to arguments, demands, or pressure.
   "the Western powers now yielded when they should have resisted"
   sinonimi: surrender, capitulate, submit, relent, admit defeat, accept defeat, concede defeat, back down, climb down, quit, give in, give up the struggle, lay down one's arms, raise/show the white flag, knuckle under

Slaves don't choose. Slaves obey their master.

 

[MarkT]

"Moral agency" seems to be a term that serves us better. You seem to be denying that humans have moral agency, and also saying you have no sin.

I hope you will clarify that as a misunderstanding.

I think people do in fact have moral agency, and God can hold us responsible for the choices we make, while still being Just. If we didn't have moral agency, He couldn't do that.

I think Paul addresses that, too

I'm not preaching a vain philosophy. I'm preaching the knowledge of God and his Son. Humans are destroyed because they deny God.

I don't think in terms of responsibility. If a man stumbles are you going to blame him for stumbling? No. I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm certainly not going to judge myself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Slaves don't choose. Slaves obey their master.

Right.
But you decide to which master you will YIELD...
to God or
to the evil one.

 

[JLB]

Slaves don't choose. Slaves obey their master.

Slaves choose to obey if they fear their Master.

 

[MarkT]

Right.
But you decide to which master you will YIELD...
to God or
to the evil one.

Where does it say that?

The saying is you're a slave to the one you obey. Not decide to obey. Not choose to obey.

You who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed. Romans 6:17

Not everything happens in the mind you know. There are some things that happen only in the heart; like understanding and believing.

Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. RSV

Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. RSV

 

[JLB]

You who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed. Romans 6:17

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. Romans 6:17

Paul shows us how these brothers went from being a slave to sin.

They had to make a conscious decision to change things in their life they were doing, because of the doctrine (truth) that was being presented to them.

That requires us to make a choice:

• Obey the truth of the doctrine.
• Ignore the truth and continue to live in the same manner.

 

[chessman]

Paul shows us how these brothers went from being a slave to sin.

Yep.

They had to make a conscious decision to change things in their life

Umm, Paul thanked God (not them) that they had been “set free”.

 

[JLB]

Yep.

Umm, Paul thanked God (not them) that they had been “set free”.

Yes we should thank God when He graciously empowers both us and those whom we minster to, with His grace to obey.



Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 1 Peter 1:22




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does it say that?

The saying is you're a slave to the one you obey. Not decide to obey. Not choose to obey.

You who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed. Romans 6:17

Not everything happens in the mind you know. There are some things that happen only in the heart; like understanding and believing.

Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. RSV

Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. RSV

Hi Mark,
Let's take what you said and examine it for a minute. You said:
The saying is you're a slave to the one you obey. Not decide to obey. Not choose to obey.

You're a slave to the one you obey.
WHO do you obey?
God or satan?
You will be a slave to the one you obey...
so let's make sure to obey GOD!

Joshua tells us to serve the God of truth and not the god which had been served by the Israelites in Egypt.
He tells the Israelites to CHOOSE who they will serve...
Joshua 24:15

It's evident from many verses in scripture that we choose who we will serve, or IOW, who we will obey.

Here is Romans 6:16:

New American Standard Bible
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We choose to present ourselves to someone as slaves...
we will obey that person...
we are a slave of the one we CHOOSE to obey...

You're right about the heart matter.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Didn't you choose to obey God and be God's slave instead of being satan's salve and obey satan??

 

[JLB]

Hi Mark,
Let's take what you said and examine it for a minute. You said:
The saying is you're a slave to the one you obey. Not decide to obey. Not choose to obey.

You're a slave to the one you obey.
WHO do you obey?
God or satan?
You will be a slave to the one you obey...
so let's make sure to obey GOD!

Joshua tells us to serve the God of truth and not the god which had been served by the Israelites in Egypt.
He tells the Israelites to CHOOSE who they will serve...
Joshua 24:15

It's evident from many verses in scripture that we choose who we will serve, or IOW, who we will obey.

Here is Romans 6:16:

New American Standard Bible
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We choose to present ourselves to someone as slaves...
we will obey that person...
we are a slave of the one we CHOOSE to obey...

You're right about the heart matter.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Didn't you choose to obey God and be God's slave instead of being satan's salve and obey satan??

Of course.

Otherwise God would force everyone to become saved, and faith, the very thing that pleases God would not be required.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course.

Otherwise God would force everyone to become saved, and faith, the very thing that pleases God would not be required.


JLB

I am considering that MarkT is discussing the U in TULIP, but unless he says so, I'm not going to assume this.

God always makes the first move in revealing Himself to man...
Man must reply to that revelation with a choice.

God does not force anyone to become worship and obey Him.
A choice must always be made...

 

[chessman]

Yes we should thank God when He graciously empowers both us and those whom we minster to, with His grace to obey.

Actually he thanked God for setting them free from sin (which he just called sin, death) and for now becoming “enslaved to righteousness” (not empowerment to do anything).

On your view, is empowerment = enslavment? Aren’t this opposite terms???

But regardless, shouldn’t we also thank God for our sanctification?

 

[JLB]

Actually he thanked God for setting them free from sin (which he just called sin, death) and for now becoming “enslaved to righteousness” (not empowerment to do anything).

How does the scripture say they were set free from sin?


But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. Romans 6:17


We thank God for His doctrine.

We thank God for His Spirit who inspires the doctrine.

We thank God for saving Paul who delivered the doctrine.

We thank God for His grace upon those who obeyed.



Never the less each of us must choose to obey the Lord:

His Gospel
His doctrine
His commandments


God does not do the obeying for us.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper, my dear friend. It is good to see you. I hope you are doing well. Our family is intact and growing closer to the Lord, no doubt by the power of our Lord through the prayers of the saints to whome you belong.

What you write resonates with me, and I have read many arguments both from gentiles and Jew alike that line up with your perspective. What I cant reconcile is the idea that the writer of Hebrews quotes from the Kione version of the Bible we know as Septuagint. If one were to argue that the Septuigint was inferior by way of translation, then in my mind that would lesson the authority of the Hebrew letter.

Simply put, there are passages in Hebrews that take on a different meaning when going back to Paleo. It is these differences that have been argued since before our Lord walked the earth.

How do you reason this?

Hi there StoveBolts my favorite friend and recipient of many of my prayers for your family. I'm so glad to hear the good news about your family unit.

To answer your question, I belong to a small group of ancient Hebrew interpreters who believe that antiquity is the favored position to take when seeking biblical truth. Paleo Hebrew script is as far back as I can go.

May our Adon (Master) richly bless you and your leadership position at CF.net and at home.
I Love You,
Chopper

 

[stovebolts]

Hi there StoveBolts my favorite friend and recipient of many of my prayers for your family. I'm so glad to hear the good news about your family unit.

To answer your question, I belong to a small group of ancient Hebrew interpreters who believe that antiquity is the favored position to take when seeking biblical truth. Paleo Hebrew script is as far back as I can go.

May our Adon (Master) richly bless you and your leadership position at CF.net and at home.
I Love You,
Chopper

Thank you Brother.
It is good to share good news with one another and I see them as the sweet fruits from our fervent prayers. I am truly blessed by you.

 

[chessman]

How does the scripture say they were set free from sin?

God’s Deliverance. You didn’t bold it or thank God for it. But it’s there, nonetheless.

We thank God for His doctrine.

We thank God for His Spirit who inspires the doctrine.

We thank God for saving Paul who delivered the doctrine.

We thank God for His grace upon those who obeyed.

On your view, is empowerment = enslavment?

shouldn’t we also thank God for our sanctification?

 

[JLB]

God’s Deliverance. You didn’t bold it or thank God for it. But it’s there, nonetheless

Their obedience is how they were set free.

They obeyed.

God deliverance is always available for all, however it’s those who obey that are set free.

We thank God for His doctrine.

We thank God for His Spirit who inspires the doctrine.

We thank God for saving Paul who delivered the doctrine.

We thank God for His grace upon those who obeyed.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Their obedience is how they were set free.

Paul’s teaching them that they were (past tense) “slaves of sin” but “were delivered” (past tense) by God! And giving God the thanks for it, not them. Yes, they obeyed (past tense), which is the same word often translated believed. But Paul’s giving thanks to God for them being delivered!

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you obeyed from the heart the form of teaching to which you were delivered.​

Romans 6:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:17&version=DLNT

They obeyed.

Yep, they believed and were delivered.

God deliverance is always available for all,

Available??? The Text say they were delivered, not that they had deliverence available.

We thank God for His doctrine.

Yep, and Paul thanked God that they were (past tense) delivered.

We thank God for His Spirit who inspires the doctrine.

Yep, His Spirit is even the One that inspired Paul to thank God that they were (past tense) delivered.

We thank God for saving Paul who delivered the doctrine.

Yep, Paul had been delivered too.

We thank God for His grace upon those who obeyed.

Yep, and Paul thanked God that they were (past tense) delivered.

On your view, is empowerment = enslavment?

shouldn’t we also thank God for our sanctification?

 

[MarkT]

Hi Mark,
Let's take what you said and examine it for a minute. You said:
The saying is you're a slave to the one you obey. Not decide to obey. Not choose to obey.

You're a slave to the one you obey.
WHO do you obey?
God or satan?
You will be a slave to the one you obey...
so let's make sure to obey GOD!

It doesn't say anything about choosing or deciding to obey. Plus he is talking about sin and obeying sin and being set free from sin Then he talks about becoming obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which they were committed. ie. to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. And they have become slaves of righteousness. The subject is sin. OK?

Joshua tells us to serve the God of truth and not the god which had been served by the Israelites in Egypt.

He tells the Israelites to CHOOSE who they will serve...
Joshua 24:15

Joshua said,
Joshua 24:15
And if you be unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”[/quote]

So Joshua said If they were unwilling to serve the Lord, they should choose who they would serve, the gods of their fathers or the gods of the Amorites. So what? The people said they would serve the LORD. But these people knew the LORD and the work which he had done for Israel.

Note Joshua told them if they were unwilling to serve the Lord, they should choose foreign gods. Does that associate choosing with foreign gods?

 

[MarkT]

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. Romans 6:17

Paul shows us how these brothers went from being a slave to sin.

They had to make a conscious decision to change things in their life they were doing, because of the doctrine (truth) that was being presented to them.

That requires us to make a choice:

• Obey the truth of the doctrine.
• Ignore the truth and continue to live in the same manner.

Where does it say they had to make a conscious decision?