Belief and Faith

[MarkT]

There’s always the choice or the option to obey the Spirit of Christ within us, or to obey the sinful desires of the flesh.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16



JLB

You're making sin an option. I don't know why.

 

[JLB]

You're making sin an option. I don't know why.

Actually, I believe Paul wrote the letter to the Romans.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


The Passion Translation says it this way -


Don’t you realize that grace frees you to choose your own master? But choose carefully, for you surrender yourself to become a servant—bound to the one you choose to obey. If you choose to love sin, it will become your master, and it will own you and reward you with death. But if you choose to love and obey God, he will lead you into perfect righteousness. Romans 6:16 TPT



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Actually, I believe Paul wrote the letter to the Romans.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


The Passion Translation says it this way -


Don’t you realize that grace frees you to choose your own master? But choose carefully, for you surrender yourself to become a servant—bound to the one you choose to obey. If you choose to love sin, it will become your master, and it will own you and reward you with death. But if you choose to love and obey God, he will lead you into perfect righteousness. Romans 6:16 TPT



JLB

Re. what Paul wrote, Where do you see the word 'choose'?

"Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16 RSV

This says nothing about choosing. Paul tells us to keep ourselves from sin and don't let sin become your master.

Your philosophy is nonexistent in his writing.

No. We are not free to choose our master and we don't choose carefully and we don't choose to love sin and we don't choose to love God.

It's true Christians love God; Of course because he is our Father. If God is our Father, then the Lord Jesus Christ is our Master.

 

[JLB]

Re. what Paul wrote, Where do you see the word 'choose'?

"Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16 RSV

This says nothing about choosing. Paul tells us to keep ourselves from sin and don't let sin become your master.

Your philosophy is nonexistent in his writing.

No. We are not free to choose our master and we don't choose carefully and we don't choose to love sin and we don't choose to love God.

It's true Christians love God; Of course because he is our Father. If God is our Father, then the Lord Jesus Christ is our Master.

Yes I agree the Lord Jesus Christ is our Master... if we obey Him.


If we obey sin, then sin is our Master.


Look at the very scripture you quoted, to see the choice.

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey,​

• either of sin, which leads to death,
• or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

There are two choices here, not just one.


Paul goes on to say in verse 19 -


I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.


We have a choice to use our physical body as an instrument of righteousness or as an instrument of unrighteousness.





JLB

 

[MarkT]

Yes I agree the Lord Jesus Christ is our Master... if we obey Him.


If we obey sin, then sin is our Master.

I'd say he is our Master because we have his Spirit. Jesus Christ is our Master, therefore we obey him.

So Paul, having the same Spirit, counsels us to keep ourselves from sin. He is not giving us a choice when he says sin leads to death. He is speaking plainly. Sin leads to death. Obedience leads to righteousness. This is not to be understood as Paul giving them a choice.

For, he says, 'now that you have been set free of sin' ie. sin is no longer your master, you have become slaves of righteousness. Therefore yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.

 

[MarkT]

Look at the very scripture you quoted, to see the choice.


Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey,

• either of sin, which leads to death,
• or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

There are two choices here, not just one.


Paul goes on to say in verse 19 -


I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.


We have a choice to use our physical body as an instrument of righteousness or as an instrument of unrighteousness.

I don't see two choices. I see one admonishment.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14 RSV

 

[JLB]

Sin leads to death. Obedience leads to righteousness. This is not to be understood as Paul giving them a choice.

Obedience on our part leads to righteousness.

Sin on our part leads to death.


Paul makes it crystal clear:

• you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether...

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


If man has no choice, then the alternative is that God is the one causing you to sin.


I think we know where that idea comes from.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Obedience on our part leads to righteousness.

Sin on our part leads to death.


Paul makes it crystal clear:

• you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether...

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


If man has no choice, then the alternative is that God is the one causing you to sin.


I think we know where that idea comes from.



JLB

Right. That's a statement. Paul says, 'you have become slaves of righteousness'.

At one time they were slaves of sin.

So how did this supernatural change come about? By choice or by hearing the word of God and faith? Paul says, "Thanks be to God".

Romans 6:16-18 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Paul thanks God. So why would anyone think God didn't do it?

 

[JLB]

So how did this supernatural change come about? By choice or by hearing the word of God and faith? Paul says, "Thanks be to God".

It came about by choice.

By choosing to obey the Gospel.


And now that we are slaves of righteousness we’ve must choose present our physical body and it’s members as slaves of righteousness to obey our Master Jesus Christ, who dwells within our spirit, and compels us to walk in righteousness and holiness.

• so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, I know someone who taught both Koine Greek and Hebrew.
He reads the O.T. in Hebrew and the N.T. in Greek.
I'm sooooo jealous!
(is that a sin???!!!)
LOL

I reject Koine because it is not as old as Paleo Hebrew, thus more pure as to what Elohim wanted Moses to relay to His people.

 

[GodsGrace]

I reject Koine because it is not as old as Paleo Hebrew, thus more pure as to what Elohim wanted Moses to relay to His people.

I know this very well.
A lot is lost in translation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. That's a statement. Paul says, 'you have become slaves of righteousness'.

At one time they were slaves of sin.

So how did this supernatural change come about? By choice or by hearing the word of God and faith? Paul says, "Thanks be to God".

Romans 6:16-18 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Paul thanks God. So why would anyone think God didn't do it?

Because the verse you posted, 16, says:
Do you not know that if you YIELDED yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...

Yield, in this case, means to give way to a force. It's a voluntary action.

yield
/jiːld/
verb

1. 1.
   produce or provide (a natural, agricultural, or industrial product).
   "the land yields grapes and tobacco"
   • 
     
     
     
2. 2.
   give way to arguments, demands, or pressure.
   "the Western powers now yielded when they should have resisted"
   sinonimi: surrender, capitulate, submit, relent, admit defeat, accept defeat, concede defeat, back down, climb down, quit, give in, give up the struggle, lay down one's arms, raise/show the white flag, knuckle under

 

[stovebolts]

I reject Koine because it is not as old as Paleo Hebrew, thus more pure as to what Elohim wanted Moses to relay to His people.

Hi Chopper, my dear friend. It is good to see you. I hope you are doing well. Our family is intact and growing closer to the Lord, no doubt by the power of our Lord through the prayers of the saints to whome you belong.

What you write resonates with me, and I have read many arguments both from gentiles and Jew alike that line up with your perspective. What I cant reconcile is the idea that the writer of Hebrews quotes from the Kione version of the Bible we know as Septuigint. If one were to argue that the Septuigint was inferior by way of translation, then in my mind that would lesson the authority of the Hebrew letter.

Simply put, there are passages in Hebrews that take on a different meaning when going back to Paleo. It is these differences that have been argued since before our Lord walked the earth.

How do you reason this?

 

[Razeontherock]

You said we don't have free will. I gave you about 4 verses that prove we do. Do you believe the bible? I asked you when our free will was taken away.

.

It was taken away when we were waiting in line. Remember that mean lady running the checkout counter? She took it!





Seriously though, to discuss this, we'd need to first define the term. I find people disagreeing on "free will" usually are just referring to very different concepts, but using the same term to do so.

If we change it to "the ability to choose between different available options," does it resolve things?

 

[Razeontherock]

Here's my take on it. My haybine, baler, hay racks, tractors, etc. have all been depreciated against my farm revenue. Twine, seed, fertilizer, fuel, etc. are also declared costs against my farm revenue. These things are all part of the cost of doing business. If I grow hay and give it to my relatives while claiming the expenses, I am guilty of income tax evasion which is a crime in the US.

Income is revenue minus expenses. With no revenue (a gift) there is no income, thus no tax.

No possiblity of a crime, but then again the gift you make to the IRS due to this matter is pretty small

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, I'm still studying and pleasure reading from my Paleo Hebrew Bible, the "HalleluYah Scriptures". That ancient Hebrew text does not use the word "faith", it uses "belief". That's where I arrived at my understanding of the two words.

Love You my Sister.
Chopper

Young people today use the words belief and faith the way they are defined in English dictionaries. They will say they don't have the ability or free will to believe something without evidence.

This of course entirely misses the point of the Gospel. I'm not sure that forfeiting the use of the words faith and belief is a solution, even if we replace it with obey.

What seems an honest way of addressing that dilemma to me is to point out that God will give us the evidence we need, if we seek it sincerely.

Then they can discover that Faith IS evidence!

 

[Razeontherock]

What do you mean by freewill? Do you mean God free in the sense that we are not subject to God? How can those who possess his Spirit say they are God free?

"Moral agency" seems to be a term that serves us better. You seem to be denying that humans have moral agency, and also saying you have no sin.

I hope you will clarify that as a misunderstanding.

I think people do in fact have moral agency, and God can hold us responsible for the choices we make, while still being Just. If we didn't have moral agency, He couldn't do that.

I think Paul addresses that, too

 

[WIP]

Income is revenue minus expenses. With no revenue (a gift) there is no income, thus no tax.

No possiblity of a crime, but then again the gift you make to the IRS due to this matter is pretty small

But I can't claim the expenses against something that doesn't exist, can I? My haybine serves one purpose - to cut my hay. If I give the hay away but claim the expenses of using my haybine, wouldn't this constitute income tax evasion? Of course, if I give all of the hay away and do not claim the expenses then I am in the clear however, if I give only part of the hay away and claim the expenses, would this not be income tax evasion?

 

[GodsGrace]

It was taken away when we were waiting in line. Remember that mean lady running the checkout counter? She took it!





Seriously though, to discuss this, we'd need to first define the term. I find people disagreeing on "free will" usually are just referring to very different concepts, but using the same term to do so.

If we change it to "the ability to choose between different available options," does it resolve things?

No R, it wouldn't resolve it.
For instance...what if one of the options was to fly like a bird?

I had explained what I meant by it,,,I won't look for the post unless you need it....but here's what free will means...

It cannot mean what WE want it to mean...
There's a philosophical term that is freewill ---
There's a Christian term that is free will ---

The Christian term is libertarian free will. This means that we can make up our mind based on what we think with no outside coersion.
What we can make up our mind about has to do with moral decisions. Is something moral or not? Do we wish to obey God or not? God leaves us with the free will to decide how we want to interact with Him...He does NOT coerce us into making a particular decision.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that God is in control of everything and ALLLOWS us to decide as we wish or we would never sin since this would be God's desire. God granted us free will and He will not trample upon it.

I'll bet there's plenty of stuff on the net about this.
Only Calvinists believe we do not have free will.

And BTW, go find that check out lady and get your free will back!!

 

[GodsGrace]

"Moral agency" seems to be a term that serves us better. You seem to be denying that humans have moral agency, and also saying you have no sin.

I hope you will clarify that as a misunderstanding.

I think people do in fact have moral agency, and God can hold us responsible for the choices we make, while still being Just. If we didn't have moral agency, He couldn't do that.

I think Paul addresses that, too

What is moral agency?