"Believe" in the present tense

[Seabass]

Let's just accept what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

In 5:24 He said "he who believes HAS eternal life".

In 10:28 He said "I give them (see 5:24 for who that is) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who accept these 2 verses AS STATED cannot accept the opinion of loss of salvation.

From what you quoted above, in neither verse does Christ speak specifically about unbelievers, so unbelievers are out of context as to WHO Christ is speaking about.

In John 5:24 we see WHO Christ is speaking about, He is speaking specifically about believers (he who believes).
So the plural pronouns "they" and "them" of 10:28 refer to the antecedent "believer" of John 5:24. So if we substitute the antecendant "believers" in John 5:24 for the pronouns "they and "them" in John 10:28 we get:

"I give BELIEVERS eternal life, and BELIEVERS shall never perish."

So the $64,000 question: where do you get the idea that one who quits believing, i.e., an unbeliever shall never perish when Christ makes it plain that it is BELIEVERS who shall never perish?

 

[Seabass]

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

The antecedent of "them" and 'they" of verse 28 are the ones who hear and follow of verse 27. So we have in verse 28 by substitution of the antecedent:

"And I give unto continual hearers and followers eternal life, and continual hearers and followers shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck continual hearers and followers out of my hand."

The person that quits believing (the unbeliever) does not fit in v28 for the unbeliever is NOT the antecendent of "they" and "them" of verse 28.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Here is the condition you will have on "believing".

John 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

There are a lot of fake believers out there. They act like they love God, but don't really like his commands. Believers with a good heart for the Lord will grow a crop of righteousness for him.

Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

I think all these discussions between eternal security and maintaining belief are for those who are on the fence before Jesus reveals himself to someone. Once the Lord has been revealed to you...................I don't see how you can turn your back on him. It's like getting knocked in the head with a wake up call that you'll never forget!

 

[Seabass]

.I don't see how you can turn your back on him. It's like getting knocked in the head with a wake up call that you'll never forget!

But one CAN turn his back on Christ, quit believing. Yet some here, (at least one person anyway), says the Christian who does turn on Christ and quits believing will be saved anyway. What say you?

 

[LovethroughDove]

But one CAN turn his back on Christ, quit believing. Yet some here, (at least one person anyway), says the Christian who does turn on Christ and quits believing will be saved anyway. What say you?

That is where I am not in either camp. I know there are people out there with the "good soil" hearts that have been born again of the Spirit and have been given total revelation of Christ. They will never be snatched out of his hand.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"Let's just accept what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

In 5:24 He said "he who believes HAS eternal life".

In 10:28 He said "I give them (see 5:24 for who that is) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who accept these 2 verses AS STATED cannot accept the opinion of loss of salvation."

From what you quoted above, in neither verse does Christ speak specifically about unbelievers, so unbelievers are out of context as to WHO Christ is speaking about.

This just completely misses the point.

5:24 says he who believes HAS eternal life.
10:28 says those given eternal life will never perish.

Those who don't want to see eternal security won't. But not because it's not there.

From the 2 verses here, everyone given eternal life will never perish. Because Jesus said so.

So the claim that a saved person can perish is against what Jesus said.

In John 5:24 we see WHO Christ is speaking about, He is speaking specifically about believers (he who believes).

My point as well.

So the plural pronouns "they" and "them" of 10:28 refer to the antecedent "believer" of John 5:24.

Again, my point as well.

So if we substitute the antecendant "believers" in John 5:24 for the pronouns "they and "them" in John 10:28 we get:

"I give BELIEVERS eternal life, and BELIEVERS shall never perish."

Here is the error. The "they" and "them" in 10:28 are RECIPIENTS of eternal life. They became that WHEN Jesus gave them eternal life.

So, this what Jesus clearly meant:
"I give them (recipients) eternal life, and recipients shall never perish."

If your view were reality, then this is what Jesus would have said:
"I give believers eternal life, and IF, or AS LONG AS they remain believers, they shall never perish."

But, we all know He gave NO CONDITIONS on recipients of eternal life for never perishing. Unlike what you've claimed.

The opinion that one must continue to believe for salvation cannot be found in Scripture.

So the $64,000 question: where do you get the idea that one who quits believing, i.e., an unbeliever shall never perish when Christ makes it plain that it is BELIEVERS who shall never perish?

Because Jesus was talking about recipients of eternal life in v.28, not "only those believers who continue to believe" as you've tried to twist it.

The point is that those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

That's EVERYONE who believes. So no one who has believed can perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

The person that quits believing (the unbeliever) does not fit in v28 for the unbeliever is NOT the antecendent of "they" and "them" of verse 28.

Since we already knew from John 5:24 that he who believes HAS eternal life, we KNOW that they possess eternal life WHEN they believe.

So, the "them" and "they" of 10:28 refer to those who believed and were given eternal life when they believed.

Again, anyone who has ever been given eternal life cannot perish.

Because Jesus said so.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is the condition you will have on "believing".

John 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

No, this is not about believing, but on LOVING. They are different.

There are a lot of fake believers out there.

But this is irrelevant, because in John 10:28 Jesus was speaking about those He GIVES eternal life. Please don't suggest that Jesus doesn't know those who have believed in Him. So only true believers are given eternal life. And WHEN they first believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24.

I think all these discussions between eternal security and maintaining belief are for those who are on the fence before Jesus reveals himself to someone. Once the Lord has been revealed to you...................I don't see how you can turn your back on him. It's like getting knocked in the head with a wake up call that you'll never forget!

Truth is not based on our opinions: (I don't see how...).

What matters is what the Bible says. And Jesus says that those He gives eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

But one CAN turn his back on Christ, quit believing. Yet some here, (at least one person anyway), says the Christian who does turn on Christ and quits believing will be saved anyway.

Because Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Why is that so hard to accept?

Those who have believed HAVE eternal life, per Jesus in John 5:24. So those He gives eternal life will never perish, from John 10:28.

 

[LovethroughDove]

No, this is not about believing, but on LOVING. They are different.


But this is irrelevant, because in John 10:28 Jesus was speaking about those He GIVES eternal life. Please don't suggest that Jesus doesn't know those who have believed in Him. So only true believers are given eternal life. And WHEN they first believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24.


Truth is not based on our opinions: (I don't see how...).

What matters is what the Bible says. And Jesus says that those He gives eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security.

John 14:15-16 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.

I believe in eternal security, and the scriptures tell me that there are a lot of imposters out there with belief that is not the kind he is looking for. The kind of believing in him is 100% linked to the love for him!!!!!!!

 

[Jim Parker]

2) where does the bible teach if one loses, casts aside his faith he will still be saved but just lose rewards?

It does not.
That "teaching" had to be invented to give the impression that OSAS could be found in the scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 14:15-16 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.

This tells us the only way to express our love for the Savior; obedience.

I believe in eternal security, and the scriptures tell me that there are a lot of imposters out there with belief that is not the kind he is looking for.

There's only one kind that saves.

The kind of believing in him is 100% linked to the love for him!!!!!!!

If so, why the command to love Him??

 

[FreeGrace]

Seabass said: ↑
2) where does the bible teach if one loses, casts aside his faith he will still be saved but just lose rewards?

It does not.
That "teaching" had to be invented to give the impression that OSAS could be found in the scriptures.

Let's just consider what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish. Jn 10:28

This means that saved people cannot perish. What else could it mean?

Does Jesus give eternal life to unsaved people, and at a later date take it away from them, so that they will perish? Of course not.

The FACT is: those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

There couldn't be a more clear verse about eternal security.

 

[Seabass]

That is where I am not in either camp. I know there are people out there with the "good soil" hearts that have been born again of the Spirit and have been given total revelation of Christ. They will never be snatched out of his hand.

Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

It's those that "keep it" being the ones that shall not perish. But some here claim a person can put God's word away from himself away and yet still be saved.

 

[Seabass]

This is what I said:
"Let's just accept what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

In 5:24 He said "he who believes HAS eternal life".

In 10:28 He said "I give them (see 5:24 for who that is) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who accept these 2 verses AS STATED cannot accept the opinion of loss of salvation."

This just completely misses the point.

5:24 says he who believes HAS eternal life.
10:28 says those given eternal life will never perish.

Those who don't want to see eternal security won't. But not because it's not there.

From the 2 verses here, everyone given eternal life will never perish. Because Jesus said so.

So the claim that a saved person can perish is against what Jesus said.


My point as well.


Again, my point as well.


Here is the error. The "they" and "them" in 10:28 are RECIPIENTS of eternal life. They became that WHEN Jesus gave them eternal life.

So, this what Jesus clearly meant:
"I give them (recipients) eternal life, and recipients shall never perish."

If your view were reality, then this is what Jesus would have said:
"I give believers eternal life, and IF, or AS LONG AS they remain believers, they shall never perish."

But, we all know He gave NO CONDITIONS on recipients of eternal life for never perishing. Unlike what you've claimed.

The opinion that one must continue to believe for salvation cannot be found in Scripture.


Because Jesus was talking about recipients of eternal life in v.28, not "only those believers who continue to believe" as you've tried to twist it.

The point is that those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

That's EVERYONE who believes. So no one who has believed can perish.

Your point has been one can quit believing (quit hearing and following) yet still not perish. You are then saying an unbeliever can be saved.

Yet neither in John 5:24 or John 10:27,28 did Jesus ever say an UNbeliever shall not perish or an unbeliever has everlasting life yet you do.


If one quits believing he then is in the unbelieving camp. So again, where is "never perishing" promised to unbelievers? John 5:24 and John 10:27,28 promise everlasting life/not perishing to believers. John 3:16 promises no perishing to believers.

So the question remains where are you getting that the unbeliever shall not perish? You posted "The opinion that one must continue to believe for salvation cannot be found in Scripture." But you have not produced a single verse that says the UNbeliever hat everlasting life. John 5:24 says the believer hath everlasting life. So John 5:24 does not back you claim the unbeliever has everlasting life. The antecedent of "they" in John 10:28 are those that hear and follow (believers) of verse 27. So John 10:27,28 does not support your claim either.

 

[Cygnus]

Your point has been one can quit believing (quit hearing and following) yet still not perish. You are then saying an unbeliever can be saved.

Initially, that is a biblical fact....HOWEVER, that is not true for a previous believer.

If a believer becomes a non-believer....that previous believer was DECEIVED. They bought a lie.
If they lose their salvation then where Jesus said they couldn't be snatched...should be taken out of the bible.

 

[Cygnus]

That is where I am not in either camp. I know there are people out there with the "good soil" hearts that have been born again of the Spirit and have been given total revelation of Christ. They will never be snatched out of his hand.

The OSNAS sect adds the "unless" clause to the they will never be snatched out of his hand verse.

...Just like that, they stick it in there.

 

[Seabass]

Initially, that is a biblical fact....HOWEVER, that is not true for a previous believer.

If a believer becomes a non-believer....that previous believer was DECEIVED. They bought a lie.
If they lose their salvation then where Jesus said they couldn't be snatched...should be taken out of the bible.

Let's take "John" for an example. A few months ago John became a Christian, a believer. Yet within a couple of months of becoming a Christian John's wife leaves him , he loses he job had his youngest child dies in an accident and John's faith is so shaken to its base he quits believing now thinking there is no God at all.

John went from a believer to now being a non-believer.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Where does this verse offer everlasting life to John the unbeliever?

 

[Cygnus]

Let's take "John" for an example. A few months ago John became a Christian, a believer. Yet within a couple of months of becoming a Christian John's wife leaves him , he loses he job had his youngest child dies in an accident and John's faith is so shaken to its base he quits believing now thinking there is no God at all.

John went from a believer to now being a non-believer.

Then John was snatched right from Jesus hands!!!!!
Happenstance happened and deceived John...according to your theology, to bad for John. Bye, bye Johnny.

Of course if life happened differently where John wife stayed, john didn't lose his job and his child didn't die...and he kept his faith..ALL IS WELL!!!!

But, NOOOOOO....your theology allows for bad stuff to happen and challenge ones faith to the point of losing salvation. DESPITE Jesus telling us a christian can't be snatched from His hands.

 

[Cygnus]

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Where does this verse offer everlasting life to John the unbeliever?

That verse is expressing ones initial salvation........the ending doesn't say...But if you stop believing in him that sent me NO LONGER HAS ETERNAL LIFE but has passed back to death from life.