"Believe" in the present tense

[Cygnus]

I can't wait to learn.

Like the narrow gate....there must be another wide gate inside of "eternity"...where believers can exit...after all one sin and your out. It's not like baseball where you get 3 strikes.

 

[gr8grace3]

Which gate do the believers who become nonbelievers exit through? I'm sure our OSNAS friends can tell us.

The Irony.

Day after day the scenario of ," Losing faith alone will dogmatically condemn/unsave the child of God" is presented as truth by some.

Losing Faith alone SURE has the power to unsave, But faith alone is questionable if it "really" saves.

 

[Cygnus]

Words of Christ in red.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB, as a christian.....ah, er, clears throat..........have you ever done bad works?

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed."

Got it! ;)

I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Unbelief is what an unbeliever has.

Those who were in Covenant, were removed from the Covenant, because of unbelief, and we who are in Christ, in covenant with Christ, are warned we too can been removed because of unbelief.

Which of course is the context of Romans 11:29

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23


Those who believe for a while then return to unbelief, are unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelief, do not believe any longer.


You won't convince anyone that those who do not believe any longer, are believers.

Which is the nail in the coffin for OSAS.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28


You guys can play all the games you want with God's word, but the Day will come, when you won't be able to convince Jesus, of the ridiculous notion, that a person who does not believe any longer, is a believer.


The two types of people on the earth:

1. Those who do not believe
2. Those who believe

• Those who believe are promised eternal life.
• Those who do not believe, are promised eternal death.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, do not have the promise of eternal life, that is only promised to those who do believe.

If you have a scripture, that says those who believe for awhile, do not believe, are promised eternal life, then post it.


If you can't, then you may want to consider asking the Lord to forgive you for promoting a doctrine that can't be proven from the bible.



JLB

 

[Seabass]

You didn't even come close to responding to my post.

You posted this: (in blue)

That verse is expressing ones initial salvation........the ending doesn't say...But if you stop believing in him that sent me NO LONGER HAS ETERNAL LIFE but has passed back to death from life.

So you are saying if a verse does not specifically forbid something, then it must be allowed? Is this really the argument you want to put forth?

 

[Seabass]

You change the Bible every time you present your message.

I was so easy for me to put what you said into the verses....then you even complained about that. Why don't you simply leave the Bible alone?
Because the Bible says this...you take it a step further and then using assumption...speculation...add to it inserting your assumptions and speculations.....Another thing, that's bad hermeneutics.

Bad grammar and exegesis is what is taking place here. FreeGrace has consistently attacked the grammar for it refutes his position. Seems you will join him in this attack.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Where in this verse does it say unbelievers 'hath everlasting life'?

 

[Cygnus]

You posted this: (in blue)

That verse is expressing ones initial salvation........the ending doesn't say...But if you stop believing in him that sent me NO LONGER HAS ETERNAL LIFE but has passed back to death from life.

So you are saying if a verse does not specifically forbid something, then it must be allowed? Is this really the argument you want to put forth?

You are adding to the scripture in the exact fashion I added to it with your post and usage of the scripture.
Show me a verse that uses the words...STOP BELIEVING...and you may have a point. Otherwise you are simply suggesting, speculation, inferring...that the verse says what you added to it.

 

[Cygnus]

Bad grammar and exegesis is what is taking place here. FreeGrace has consistently attacked the grammar for it refutes his position. Seems you will join him in this attack.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Where in this verse does it say unbelievers 'hath everlasting life'?

Where does that verse say STOP BELIEVING?

 

[Seabass]

So then, did Jesus just forget to add that to John 10:28, about those who will never perish?

Maybe He should have said, "I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they "keep it", they shall never perish."

But He didn't.


How does Luke 8:15 have any relevance to this statement? That verse is about "bringing forth fruit", yet this statement is about "still being saved".

Hearing and following per John 10:27 is keeping Christ's word per Luke 8:15.

And once again, you find yourself on the opposite side of the bible in claiming an unbeliever, (one who has quit keeping the word), can be saved anyway.

 

[Cygnus]

Hearing and following per John 10:27 is keeping Christ's word per Luke 8:15.

And once again, you find yourself on the opposite side of the bible in claiming an unbeliever, (one who has quit keeping the word), can be saved anyway.

Where does that verse say STOP BELIEVING?

 

[JLB]

JLB, as a christian.....ah, er, clears throat..........have you ever done bad works?

Yes, as a young Christian I have practiced the works of the flesh, and repented, then backslid again, and repented, and backslid again, until I finally began to study for my self the principles found in the Bible, which were much different from the teachers I had been listening to.

As I matured, I learned from failing over and over, and realized I was a hypocrite, which claimed I was a Christian, but my life was nothing like what Jesus and His Apostles were teaching it should be.

I began to obey what the bible said, about being set apart from those who live immoral, and ungodly lives.

Here are some of the things we are commanded from the scriptures that changed my walk with the Lord:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-3

• present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
• do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-19

• Those those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those Christians who practice the works of the flesh, to live according to the flesh, are under condemnation, and if they continue, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Which kingdom will someone inherit, if they do not inherit the kingdom of God?


JLB

 

[Seabass]

No, my point is the SAME as Jesus' point in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. If that's hard to swallow, I'm sorry.

But Jesus is the One who made the point, not me.

If salvation can be lost, that means some recipients of eternal life CAN perish. Which is directly AGAINST what Jesus said.

I am amazed that this clear point isn't being seen.


Just keep missing the point. All who receive eternal life shall never perish. So SAID Jesus.

Those who think salvation can be lost, for any reason, fail to understand what Jesus said in John 10:28.


I reject your misuse of the word "unbeliever". The Bible NEVER uses that word for an apostate. So quit playing word games.

When a person believes in Christ, at that MOMENT, they have (being given by Jesus) eternal life. Jn 5:24

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in Jn 10:28.

He couldn't have been more clear. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

So the view that salvation can be lost goes directly against what Jesus SAID.

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing. That's the rub that some seem unable to handle.


Nor do I intend to. Jesus cleared up the WHOLE ISSUE of eternal security in Jn 10:28. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to never perish.


You've misread the text. Jesus said "he who believes HAS eternal life". That means they possess it WHEN they believed.

From that FACT, Jesus said in Jn 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. NO CONDITIONS for recipients.

Your WHOLE argument is based on one thing: reject the grammar and logic of the passage.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Prove, grammatically and logically, how the pronoun "they" of verse 28 refers to unbelievers when unbelievers are not even mentioned at all in this text.

 

[chessman]

The two types of people on the earth:

1. Those who do not believe
2. Those who believe

1 John 5:10 (NASB) The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. ​

1+1=2

1 who has not believed.
1 who believes

which one is the hypothetical exbeliever you speak of?

 

[Seabass]

Where does that verse say STOP BELIEVING?

The verse is talking about BELIEVERS, those that currently and continue to believe as being the ones that 'hath everlasting life".

So does John 5:24 provide salvation for:
1) one who has NEVER believed ?
or
2) one who once believe but quit?

If you think it does provide salvation for one or two, please explain how it does.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed."

Got it! ;)

I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Unbelief is what an unbeliever has.

When one believes, they are said to be "born again", or "regenerated", and ARE a "new creature".

Which text says that if a believer ceases to believe, these things are undone?

Are these things a permanent change or a temporary change?

Those who were in Covenant, were removed from the Covenant, because of unbelief, and we who are in Christ, in covenant with Christ, are warned we too can been removed because of unbelief.

Which of course is the context of Romans 11:29

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23

It's a mistake to take figures of speech and apply them literally. The context is about service. Israel was chosen for service to God. They cannot serve Him through unbelief.

Those who believe for a while then return to unbelief, are unbelieving.

Are these things; born again, regenerated, new creature, permanent or temporary, conditioned on something else?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

What we know from this verse is that a believer can ceae to believe at some point in time. It doesn't address salvation, much less the loss of it.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelief, do not believe any longer.

Are being born again, regenerated, made a new creature temporary, or permanent changes?

You won't convince anyone that those who do not believe any longer, are believers.

I've never tried. Why would anyone come to that erroneous conclusion anyway?

Which is the nail in the coffin for OSAS.

There is no coffin for eternal security. Jesus taught it clearly in John 10:28, whether it's accepted or not by some.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No one has shown that Jesus said something else. Because He didn't say something else.

And note that He gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients in order to never perish. None.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Since you've given no explanation at all, I'll help out here.

v.26 speaks of those who never entered through Him (Jn 10:9) and were saved. So they never received eternal life.
v.27 speaks of those who DID enter through Him and were saved. They are His sheep.
v.28 speaks of saved people being given eternal life and promised they shall never perish.

Now, since there is strong disagreement, please address of my points about v.26-28.

iow, what does each verse speak of?

You guys can play all the games you want with God's word, but the Day will come, when you won't be able to convince Jesus, of the ridiculous notion, that a person who does not believe any longer, is a believer.

If there is any evidence that I EVER described an apostate as a believer, please provide it. Otherwise, do the honorable thing and apologize for your false insinuation.

The two types of people on the earth:

1. Those who do not believe
2. Those who believe

1. On whose authority?

The Bible identifies two typpes of people: saved and unsaved.

Those who believe are promised eternal life.
Those who do not believe, are promised eternal death.

Those who never believed were never saved.

Those who ever believed were given eternal life and promised that they shal never perish. So said Jesus in Jn 10:28.

If you have a scripture, that says those who believe for awhile, do not believe, are promised eternal life, then post it.

I've shown what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: they shall nebver perish. Jn 10:28

Question: when a person believes, when are they given eternal life?

If you can't, then you may want to consider asking the Lord to forgive you for promoting a doctrine that can't be proven from the bible.

John 10:28 proves eternal security. NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish.

What hasn't ever been shown from Scripture is any verse that plainly warns of losing salvation. In plain words.

 

[FreeGrace]

Bad grammar and exegesis is what is taking place here. FreeGrace has consistently attacked the grammar for it refutes his position.

What I "attack" is the abuse of a certain Greek tense and bad grammar. Of course abusing a tense and bad grammar challenges my position, but since the abuse and bad grammar are the problems, the challenge is fake.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Where in this verse does it say unbelievers 'hath everlasting life'?

It actually says "he that hears My word and believes on Him that sent me, HAS eternal life".

For exegesis, believing here is present tense. It means "he that hears presently, or right now, or even today". Those who believe possess eternal life.

Since there are no verses about receiving eternal life some period of time AFTER initially believing, it should be obvious that it is received the MOMENT one believes. That is the point. Which cannot be refuted.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, as a young Christian I have practiced the works of the flesh, and repented, then backslid again, and repented, and backslid again,

And at that moment you lost your salvation...according to your theology.
But as I said, if you can actually lose your salvation...you already have.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So then, did Jesus just forget to add that to John 10:28, about those who will never perish?

Maybe He should have said, "I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they "keep it", they shall never perish."

But He didn't."

Hearing and following per John 10:27 is keeping Christ's word per Luke 8:15.

Is there an aversion to answering my questions?

Did Jesus add any conditions to His promise that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, or not?

I sense the aversion or reluctance to answering this question is because it will clarify the debate and end it.

And once again, you find yourself on the opposite side of the bible in claiming an unbeliever, (one who has quit keeping the word), can be saved anyway.

Vague statement. No support from Scripture. Conclusion: opinion based on speculation, guessing, emotional reaction. But not facts.

What conditions did Jesus note when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

 

[Cygnus]

The verse is talking about BELIEVERS, those that currently and continue to believe as being the ones that 'hath everlasting life".

So does John 5:24 provide salvation for:
1) one who has NEVER believed ?
or
2) one who once believe but quit?

If you think it does provide salvation for one or two, please explain how it does.

Seabass, let me ask you again...Where does that verse say STOP BELIEVING?
Stop playing dodge ball and answer the question with out employing biblical gymnastics.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, as a young Christian I have practiced the works of the flesh, and repented, then backslid again, and repented, and backslid again, until I finally began to study for my self the principles found in the Bible, which were much different from the teachers I had been listening to.

Were you saved, then lost, then saved again, then lost again, then saved again, then lost again, etc, etc, etc?