"Believe" in the present tense

[Seabass]

Then John was snatched right from Jesus hands!!!!!
Happenstance happened and deceived John...according to your theology, to bad for John. Bye, bye Johnny.

Of course if life happened differently where John wife stayed, john didn't lose his job and his child didn't die...and he kept his faith..ALL IS WELL!!!!

But, NOOOOOO....your theology allows for bad stuff to happen and challenge ones faith to the point of losing salvation. DESPITE Jesus telling us a christian can't be snatched from His hands.

The pronouns "they" and "them" in John 10:28 refer to those that hear and follow in verse 27 and no one else.

To make the pronouns "they' and "them" of v28 refer to anyone other than those they hear and follow is adding an antecedent to the text out of thin air.

 

[Seabass]

That verse is expressing ones initial salvation........the ending doesn't say...But if you stop believing in him that sent me NO LONGER HAS ETERNAL LIFE but has passed back to death from life.

The present tense of John 5:24 speaks of one's present state and not the state one was in in the past. So the verse offers no hope of everlasting life to those in a present state of unbelief. The present tense negates the idea one can stop believing but still have everlasting life. Believing is a condition one must meet to have everlasting life and it one quits meeting the condition he will not have everlasting life.

John 5:24, The 'he' that hath everlasting life is qualified in the verse as hearing and believing. To change the qualifiers to include unbelief is of course changing, perverting the verse.

Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

There is an obvious discrepancy between yourself and FreeGrace with the bible as to where unbelievers will be in eternity.

 

[reba]

5:24 says he who believes HAS eternal life.
10:28 says those given eternal life will never perish.

Jas_2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[Cygnus]

The pronouns "they" and "them" in John 10:28 refer to those that hear and follow in verse 27 and no one else.

To make the pronouns "they' and "them" of v28 refer to anyone other than those they hear and follow is adding an antecedent to the text out of thin air.

You didn't even come close to responding to my post.

 

[Cygnus]

To change the qualifiers to include unbelief is of course changing, perverting the verse.

You change the Bible every time you present your message.

I was so easy for me to put what you said into the verses....then you even complained about that. Why don't you simply leave the Bible alone?
Because the Bible says this...you take it a step further and then using assumption...speculation...add to it inserting your assumptions and speculations.....Another thing, that's bad hermeneutics.

 

[JLB]

You change the Bible every time you present your message.

I was so easy for me to put what you said into the verses....then you even complained about that. Why don't you simply leave the Bible alone?
Because the Bible says this...you take it a step further and then using assumption...speculation...add to it inserting your assumptions and speculations.....Another thing, that's bad hermeneutics.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


Here are those who will receive eternal life -

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

again

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

It's those that "keep it" being the ones that shall not perish.

So then, did Jesus just forget to add that to John 10:28, about those who will never perish?

Maybe He should have said, "I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they "keep it", they shall never perish."

But He didn't.

But some here claim a person can put God's word away from himself away and yet still be saved.

How does Luke 8:15 have any relevance to this statement? That verse is about "bringing forth fruit", yet this statement is about "still being saved".

 

[FreeGrace]

Your point has been one can quit believing (quit hearing and following) yet still not perish. You are then saying an unbeliever can be saved.

No, my point is the SAME as Jesus' point in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. If that's hard to swallow, I'm sorry.

But Jesus is the One who made the point, not me.

If salvation can be lost, that means some recipients of eternal life CAN perish. Which is directly AGAINST what Jesus said.

I am amazed that this clear point isn't being seen.

Yet neither in John 5:24 or John 10:27,28 did Jesus ever say an UNbeliever shall not perish or an unbeliever has everlasting life yet you do.

Just keep missing the point. All who receive eternal life shall never perish. So SAID Jesus.

Those who think salvation can be lost, for any reason, fail to understand what Jesus said in John 10:28.

So the question remains where are you getting that the unbeliever shall not perish?

I reject your misuse of the word "unbeliever". The Bible NEVER uses that word for an apostate. So quit playing word games.

When a person believes in Christ, at that MOMENT, they have (being given by Jesus) eternal life. Jn 5:24

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in Jn 10:28.

He couldn't have been more clear. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

So the view that salvation can be lost goes directly against what Jesus SAID.

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing. That's the rub that some seem unable to handle.

You posted "The opinion that one must continue to believe for salvation cannot be found in Scripture." But you have not produced a single verse that says the UNbeliever hat everlasting life.

Nor do I intend to. Jesus cleared up the WHOLE ISSUE of eternal security in Jn 10:28. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

John 5:24 says the believer hath everlasting life. So John 5:24 does not back you claim the unbeliever has everlasting life.

You've misread the text. Jesus said "he who believes HAS eternal life". That means they possess it WHEN they believed.

From that FACT, Jesus said in Jn 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. NO CONDITIONS for recipients.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let's take "John" for an example. A few months ago John became a Christian, a believer. Yet within a couple of months of becoming a Christian John's wife leaves him , he loses he job had his youngest child dies in an accident and John's faith is so shaken to its base he quits believing now thinking there is no God at all.

John went from a believer to now being a non-believer.

Why not just use the word the Bible uses for such a person, who is exactly like the second soil in Jesus' parable of believing for a while, but in time of testing, fell away? The Bible word for such a person is apostate, not "unbeliever".

When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed.

 

[Cygnus]

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

Kinda makes me wonder just what your pushing. Sounds like a works based salvation.

imagine this, John gets saved at 15....has a very fruitful christian life. A believer above all believers. Loves the Lord, works to glorify the Lord...ALL HIS LIFE...until tragedy strikes.
When the tragedy strikes John walks away from the Lord. Even denounces the Lord. Stops believing. Then John dies the very next hour. Your theology would say John is doomed...on his way to hell.

But, don't worry John, your continued salvation has nothing to do with what you do. Your salvation is dependent upon what Jesus did.

 

[Cygnus]

When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed.

I think you should have said it like this:
When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

The pronouns "they" and "them" in John 10:28 refer to those that hear and follow in verse 27 and no one else.

It refers to His sheep, which is determined by 10:9; those who "enter through Him" and are saved. That's who His sheep are; saved people.

To make the pronouns "they' and "them" of v28 refer to anyone other than those they hear and follow is adding an antecedent to the text out of thin air.

This comment came out of thin air.

 

[reba]

I think you should have said it like this:
When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed.

What verse/passage say this?

 

[Cygnus]

It refers to His sheep, which is determined by 10:9; those who "enter through Him" and are saved. That's who His sheep are; saved people.

Which gate do the believers who become nonbelievers exit through? I'm sure our OSNAS friends can tell us.

 

[FreeGrace]

The present tense of John 5:24 speaks of one's present state and not the state one was in in the past.

OK. One who presently believes HAS eternal life. No problemo. Now, let's say that one initially believed 10 years ago. So WHEN did that one possess eternal life? ONLY now in the present, but not back 10 years ago? Or WHEN he initially believed 10 years ago?

So the verse offers no hope of everlasting life to those in a present state of unbelief.

The verse has nothing to do with unbelievers at all.

John 10:28 informs us that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That is a clear statement of eternal security.

The present tense negates the idea one can stop believing but still have everlasting life.

No it doesn't. This is an abuse of the present tense. It means action occurring presently, NOW, or right now. There is nothing in the present tense that makes results of present action dependent upon continuation of present action. That is FALSE.

Believing is a condition one must meet to have everlasting life and it one quits meeting the condition he will not have everlasting life.

No. When one is given (RECEIVES) eternal life when they believe, Jesus SAYS they shall never perish. Jn 10:28

 

[Cygnus]

What verse/passage say this?

ALL of them. Unless you insist on taking the meaning out of context.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"5:24 says he who believes HAS eternal life.
10:28 says those given eternal life will never perish."

Jas_2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Wow. Talk about out of context. James 2:19 is about monotheism, not faith in Christ for salvation. So there is no connection between John 5:24 and 10:28 with James 2:19.

Furthermore, the ONLY REASON the demons believe that "God is One" is because they have experience it.

They certainly didn't take that fact on faith. iow, believing what they were told. They experienced it. They didn't take it on faith.

So there's no connection at all between James 2:19 and saving faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed."

I think you should have said it like this:
When the Bible says "unbeliever" it means one who never believed.

Got it! ;)

I'll try to be more clear in the future.

 

[FreeGrace]

Which gate do the believers who become nonbelievers exit through? I'm sure our OSNAS friends can tell us.

I can't wait to learn.

 

[JLB]

Kinda makes me wonder just what your pushing. Sounds like a works based salvation.

imagine this, John gets saved at 15....has a very fruitful christian life. A believer above all believers. Loves the Lord, works to glorify the Lord...ALL HIS LIFE...until tragedy strikes.
When the tragedy strikes John walks away from the Lord. Even denounces the Lord. Stops believing. Then John dies the very next hour. Your theology would say John is doomed...on his way to hell.

But, don't worry John, your continued salvation has nothing to do with what you do. Your salvation is dependent upon what Jesus did.

• I'm not promoting anything, but posting the words of Christ.
• I'm only pointing you to what Jesus said

Words of Christ in red.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

again words of Christ in red -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



JLB