"Believe" in the present tense

[Cygnus]

Were you saved, then lost, then saved again, then lost again, then saved again, then lost again, etc, etc, etc?

Of course he'll say he was never lost....in fear of Heb 6:6

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, my point is the SAME as Jesus' point in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. If that's hard to swallow, I'm sorry."

Your WHOLE argument is based on one thing: reject the grammar and logic of the passage.

Totally not true.

Please point out the conditions Jesus laid on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish in John 10:28.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Prove, grammatically and logically, how the pronoun "they" of verse 28 refers to unbelievers when unbelievers are not even mentioned at all in this text.

This is a nonsense challenge. This isn't about whether one ceases to believe or not.

It IS about what Jesus gives to people and the result; they shall never perish.

When does Jesus give eternal life to people? Specifically?

Since I doubt that I will be given an answer, I'll answer it. He gives eternal life to a person WHEN they believe.

And it's at THAT POINT WHEN Jesus gives eternal life.

So, IN FACT, what that person may do in the future HAS NO BEARING on his/her never perishing.

What conditions did Jesus lay on recipients of eternal life for never perishing? None.

 

[FreeGrace]

The verse is talking about BELIEVERS, those that currently and continue to believe as being the ones that 'hath everlasting life".

Thanks for pointing out the error and abuse of the present tense. It does NOT mean or suggest continuing on out into the future.

So does John 5:24 provide salvation for:
1) one who has NEVER believed ?
or
2) one who once believe but quit?

For those who EVER believed. Because Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life.

That would obviously include everyone who EVER believed. They received eternal life WHEN they believed.

If I am in error, please refute my point with Scripture.

If you think it does provide salvation for one or two, please explain how it does.

I wont play these word games, but I know this: Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe. When they believe. That includes WHEN they first believed. And the promise of John 10:28 applies the MOMENT one first believes. Period.

No one has shown anything else.

 

[Cygnus]

I said this:
"No, my point is the SAME as Jesus' point in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. If that's hard to swallow, I'm sorry."

You forgot the "BUT" that the OSNAS version has written into it.

 

[MarkT]

For exegesis, believing here is present tense. It means "he that hears presently, or right now, or even today". Those who believe possess eternal life.

Since there are no verses about receiving eternal life some period of time AFTER initially believing, it should be obvious that it is received the MOMENT one believes. That is the point. Which cannot be refuted.

If a person doesn't believe today then he is an unbeliever, and he is condemned already. He is condemned. It's not just a loss of some imagined reward. He is condemned, marked for destruction.

John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Jim Parker]

Let's just consider what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish. Jn 10:28

I am aware that verse is your favorite to "prove" that scripture says what, in fact, scripture does not say.
We are not going to agree.

 

[MarkT]

JLB, as a christian.....ah, er, clears throat..........have you ever done bad works?

When we do sin, which we do because the flesh is weak, we have the Lord to make intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25
Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

So according to his word, God will forgive us.

“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.” Mr. 3:28-30

And he taught us to pray, 'Father forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.' And we know he will do it.

Meanwhile those on the OSAS side perhaps feel like they don't need to be forgiven any more; they don't need Jesus to intercede for them because they are saved or were saved once, and they have eternal life, and they can even deny Jesus. But Jesus said,
Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Cygnus]

Meanwhile those on the OSAS side perhaps feel like they don't need to be forgiven any more; they don't need Jesus to intercede for them because they are saved or were saved once, and they have eternal life, and they can even deny Jesus.

This is NOT what the OSAS people say....SO STOP PRESENTING IT AS SO.
The OSAS people draw a distinction between SALVATION and FELLOWSHIP.
When I ask for forgiveness I ask for the purpose of fellowship..considering all of my sins regarding salvation have already been forgiven.

 

[MarkT]

This is NOT what the OSAS people say....SO STOP PRESENTING IT AS SO.
The OSAS people draw a distinction between SALVATION and FELLOWSHIP.
When I ask for forgiveness I ask for the purpose of fellowship..considering all of my sins regarding salvation have already been forgiven.

You ask God to forgive you your trespasses don't you? You asked about sin and when we sin. So you ask God to forgive you your trespasses, but then you say your sins have already been forgiven?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person doesn't believe today then he is an unbeliever, and he is condemned already.

That's if he NEVER believed.

But if he EVER believed, he received eternal life at that moment, and according to Jesus, he shall never perish. John 10:28

John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Please notice the "he has not believed" phrase. That indicates he NEVER believed.

Those who HAVE believed HAVE eternal life and shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Let's just consider what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish. Jn 10:28"

I am aware that verse is your favorite to "prove" that scripture says what, in fact, scripture does not say.
We are not going to agree.

OK, then just what did Jesus say in that verse?

I believe He meant exactly what He said: those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

What do you think He said?

 

[FreeGrace]

Meanwhile those on the OSAS side perhaps feel like they don't need to be forgiven any more

I wish you'd not try to speak for those you don't agree with. It's obvious that you're not even aware of our view.

The reason John wrote 1 Jn 1:9 is precisely because we do sin, which negatively effects our fellowship with God. We need to confess our sins in order to be forgiven and purified from all unrighteousness.

I've never met an eternal security believer who didn't rely on regular confession of sins for forgiveness and cleansing.

Your comments are way off the wall.

; they don't need Jesus to intercede for them because they are saved or were saved once, and they have eternal life, and they can even deny Jesus.

Pure nonsense.

 

[Jim Parker]

OK, then just what did Jesus say in that verse?

That is the wrong question.
That is the kind of question that a charlatan and a fraud would use to mislead people away from the the truth.
(And, no, I do not think you are either a charlatan or a fraud, just misled.)

The proper question is: "What does the WHOLE of scripture teach?" not just a very small snippet taken out of the context of the rest of the Bible.

By taking little pieces of scripture and forcing them to say what they were not intended to say we can easily end up with nonsense like: "Judas went away and hanged himself. (Mat 27:5) Go and do likewise." (Luk 10:37)

That is what you are doing. You are taking small bits out of the Bible and ignoring others.

That's why I won't argue with you; you refuse to acknowledge the rest of scripture if it does not dove-tail with your false teaching.

 

[MarkT]

That's if he NEVER believed.

But if he EVER believed, he received eternal life at that moment, and according to Jesus, he shall never perish. John 10:28


Please notice the "he has not believed" phrase. That indicates he NEVER believed.

Those who HAVE believed HAVE eternal life and shall never perish.

Has not, does not, whatever, he is an unbeliever today. He does not believe.

 

[Jim Parker]

Has not, does not, whatever, he is an unbeliever today. He does not believe.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness,
You cannot stray from where you were not "at."

 

[chessman]

FreeGrace do you refuse to acknowledge the rest of scripture if it does not dove-tail with your teaching?

 

[MarkT]

I wish you'd not try to speak for those you don't agree with. It's obvious that you're not even aware of our view.

The reason John wrote 1 Jn 1:9 is precisely because we do sin, which negatively effects our fellowship with God. We need to confess our sins in order to be forgiven and purified from all unrighteousness.

I've never met an eternal security believer who didn't rely on regular confession of sins for forgiveness and cleansing.

Your comments are way off the wall.


Pure nonsense.

What fellowship does light have with darkness?

But right now we are talking about salvation. If your sins are already forgiven (according to Cygnus), then you don't need to pray. You don't need Jesus to intercede. Which is my point.

 

[Cygnus]

You ask God to forgive you your trespasses don't you? You asked about sin and when we sin. So you ask God to forgive you your trespasses, but then you say your sins have already been forgiven?

Haven't yours been forgiven?

 

[billybalke]

Haven't yours been forgiven?

Methinks you missed Mark T's point?

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"OK, then just what did Jesus say in that verse?"

That is the wrong question.

I guess so, for those who resist the teaching of eternal security. But what Jesus said is clear enough: recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Very strong words: NEVER perish.

That is the kind of question that a charlatan and a fraud would use to mislead people away from the the truth.

This is an unbelievable cheap shot. But I won't return the compliment by your failure to even address what Jesus said in that verse.

(And, no, I do not think you are either a charlatan or a fraud, just misled.)

If I am misled, then blame Jesus Christ, for I believe His words in John 10:28, which puts me in the minority on this forum.

The proper question is: "What does the WHOLE of scripture teach?" not just a very small snippet taken out of the context of the rest of the Bible.

So, loose translation: John 10:28 is only a small snippet and does not mean what it so clearly SAYS.

Really?

By taking little pieces of scripture and forcing them to say what they were not intended to say we can easily end up with nonsense like: "Judas went away and hanged himself. (Mat 27:5) Go and do likewise." (Luk 10:37)

So, please explain how I've "forced" John 10:28 to say what was not intended. How did I do that?

Jesus said: "I give them eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH. No one can snatch them out of My hand."

It seems some just do NOT want to admit what Jesus very clearly SAID.

Those He gives eternal life to are recipients of eternal life. By definition of what it means to give something to someone.

So, Jesus really did mean that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. But that goes against the agenda and teaching that salvation can be lost.

That is what you are doing. You are taking small bits out of the Bible and ignoring others.

There is NOTHING in the whole of Scripture that refutes what Jesus said in Jn 10:28.

The mere suggestion that there are verses that refute what Jesus said is preposterous.

That's why I won't argue with you; you refuse to acknowledge the rest of scripture if it does not dove-tail with your false teaching.

What you consider false teaching is EXACTLY what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

Recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish. Period.

That's what He said and that's what He meant.

Obviously.

And there is NOTHING else in Scripture that contradicts what Jesus said in John 10:28.