"Believe" in the present tense

[Jim Parker]

By their claim that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

That's what scripture says.
The pertinent passages have been provided to you multiple times.

But here's a bit about your conclusions with reference to the Aorist tense:

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorist

Hermeneutic implications
Because the aorist was not maintained in either Latin or the Germanic languages, there have long been difficulties in translating the Greek New Testament into Western languages. The aorist has often been interpreted as making a strong statement about the aspect or even the time of an event, when, in fact, due to its being the unmarked (default) form of the Greek verb, such implications are often left to context. Thus, within New Testament hermeneutics, it is considered an exegetical fallacy to attach undue significance to uses of the aorist. *** Although one may draw specific implications from an author's use of the imperfective or perfect, no such conclusions can, in general, be drawn from the use of the aorist, which may refer to an action "without specifying whether the action is unique, repeated, ingressive, instantaneous, past, or accomplished." In particular, the aorist does not imply a "once for all" action, as it has commonly been misinterpreted.

***D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, Baker Book House, 1984, ISBN 0-8010-2499-4, p. 70.

 

[gr8grace3]

And yet it is being said that if we deny the one who saves us, not just our faith, that we can still be received into eternal life?

Jesus does the saving, but by which medium does He do it? Through faith right? If faith was not needed to save then why must we have it?

Acts 16:31. The moment we believe........we are saved. The Lord Jesus Christ saves us. Signed , sealed and delivered.

We are no longer our own. 1 Cor 6:19.

We were bought with His price. 1 Cor 7:23.

We have died with Him and are a part of His body. Eph 5:30.

So if we, God forbid, become apostate and deny him in the future. He cannot deny us because we are a body part of the Lord Jesus Christ the moment we believe.

We can be denied reign, rank and inheritance in His Kingdom. But we will NOT,NEVER be denied entrance into His Kingdom.

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

He cannot deny us salvation if we become faithless because we are a PART of Him. However, He can deny us reign and rank in His Kingdom if we do not endure the Christian way of life......

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;..............Deny us reign, rank and inheritance in His Kingdom. Matt 5:19

 

[Jim Parker]

Acts 16:31. The moment we believe........we are saved. The Lord Jesus Christ saves us. Signed , sealed and delivered.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (baptized in water) and the Spirit, (filled with the Holy Spirit) he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that

The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Ex. “if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

It follows logically that if one does NOT “CONTINUE IN (HIS) FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.

2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality. If there were no danger of falling then there would be no need for the warning to make sure those things are done.

2 PE 2:15a They have forsaken the right way and gone astray,…
2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

This is a reference to “saved” people who have left the faith and returned to their old ways of which the end is destruction. They were once saved and now they are not. They once had the gift of eternal life and they had discarded it.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated.

 

[Jim Parker]

He cannot deny us salvation if we become faithless because we are a PART of Him.

Judas is the epitome of someone who became faithless.
Are you saying he is saved? I do not think he was.

He can deny us reign and rank in His Kingdom if we do not endure the Christian way of life......

Where in scripture is there support for that notion?

 

[gr8grace3]

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (baptized in water) and the Spirit, (filled with the Holy Spirit) he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that

The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Ex. “if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

It follows logically that is one does NOT “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.

2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality.

2 PE 2:15a They have forsaken the right way and gone astray,…

2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

This is a reference to “saved” people who have left the faith and returned to their old ways of which the end is destruction. They were once saved and now they are not. They once had the gift of eternal life and they had discarded it.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated.

It's pretty simple. Many, the majority? of believers will not be presented holy and blameless to the Father. That is why we will have the Bema seat of Christ. Many believers went astray and did not endure. So they will have to be refined as if through fire to be presented holy and blameless. They lost their chance to do it in time and Glorify the Lord in time. So their works are burned and they are saved as if through fire..........to be presented holy and blameless. We can make the choice to do this in time or the Lord will do it for us through fire at His Bema seat.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Jim Parker]

That is why we will have the Bema seat of Christ.

According to Jesus, here will be one and only one judgment.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
There is no "door number three" where "believers who went astray and did not endure" get to go spruce up.
There are two and only two options: Inherit the kingdom or go to hell.
Jesus made that very clear at Mat 25:31-46 as well where He stated that those who were merciful inherited the kingdom and those who were not merciful were sent to hell.
And Jesus also said (John 3:36 )
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.
So. according to Jesus, the two possible outcomes, based on what you do here and now, are heaven and hell.
There will be one and only one judgment. (And, no, I really don't care what John Darby and Schofield made popular.)

Many believers went astray and did not endure. So they will have to be refined as if through fire to be presented holy and blameless.

Are you saying they will go to Purgatory for a few thousand years to be cleaned up??

 

[gr8grace3]

Judas is the epitome of someone who became faithless.
Are you saying he is saved? I do not think he was.

Judas never became faithless. He was always faithless that The Lord Jesus Christ was his personal Savior.

 

[gr8grace3]

According to Jesus, here will be one and only one judgment.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
There is no "door number three" where "believers who went astray and did not endure" get to go spruce up.
There are two and only two options: Inherit the kingdom or go to hell.
Jesus made that very clear at Mat 25:31-46 as well where He stated that those who were merciful inherited the kingdom and those who were not merciful were sent to hell.
And Jesus also said (John 3:36 )
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.
So. according to Jesus, the two possible outcomes, based on what you do here and now, are heaven and hell.
There will be one and only one judgment. (And, no, I really don't care what John Darby and Schofield made popular.)

Are you saying they will go to Purgatory for a few thousand years to be cleaned up??

Jim. Calm down. Just think a bit. I am defending eternal security, and then you 'assume' or 'insinuate' that I believe in purgatory? That makes no sense.

Darby and Schofield? How did they get involved here?

Look close at your post again. You say there is one and only one judgment. and then go on to describe two judgement's.

and I agree with 2 judgement's.

Bema seat. Evaluation of those who believed.

Great white throne. Judgement/condemnation of those who never believed.

 

[JohnDB]

Jim. Calm down. Just think a bit. I am defending eternal security, and then you 'assume' or 'insinuate' that I believe in purgatory? That makes no sense.

Darby and Schofield? How did they get involved here?

Look close at your post again. You say there is one and only one judgment. and then go on to describe two judgement's.

and I agree with 2 judgement's.

Bema seat. Evaluation of those who believed.

Great white throne. Judgement/condemnation of those who never believed.

Woah,
How did you get there from here?
Jim wasn't promoting purgatory nor the two different Judgement seats.
The Bema and the great white throne Judgement are theologies created by John Darby. Try to read more carefully and keep up eh?

 

[Nathan]

Acts 16:31. The moment we believe........we are saved. The Lord Jesus Christ saves us. Signed , sealed and delivered.

We are no longer our own. 1 Cor 6:19.

We were bought with His price. 1 Cor 7:23.

We have died with Him and are a part of His body. Eph 5:30.

So if we, God forbid, become apostate and deny him in the future. He cannot deny us because we are a body part of the Lord Jesus Christ the moment we believe.

We can be denied reign, rank and inheritance in His Kingdom. But we will NOT,NEVER be denied entrance into His Kingdom.

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

He cannot deny us salvation if we become faithless because we are a PART of Him. However, He can deny us reign and rank in His Kingdom if we do not endure the Christian way of life......

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;..............Deny us reign, rank and inheritance in His Kingdom. Matt 5:19

So, does the Spirit of God live in an apostate?

 

[Nathan]

Acts 16:31. The moment we believe........we are saved. The Lord Jesus Christ saves us. Signed , sealed and delivered.

We are no longer our own. 1 Cor 6:19.

We were bought with His price. 1 Cor 7:23.

We have died with Him and are a part of His body. Eph 5:30.

So if we, God forbid, become apostate and deny him in the future. He cannot deny us because we are a body part of the Lord Jesus Christ the moment we believe.

We can be denied reign, rank and inheritance in His Kingdom. But we will NOT,NEVER be denied entrance into His Kingdom.

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

He cannot deny us salvation if we become faithless because we are a PART of Him. However, He can deny us reign and rank in His Kingdom if we do not endure the Christian way of life......

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;..............Deny us reign, rank and inheritance in His Kingdom. Matt 5:19

Matthew 10:32 (ESV) 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,

Matthew 10:33 (ESV) 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

I don't think Jesus is speaking of rank and reign in Matthew 10. He was speaking of eternal life. Where do you come up with rank and reign in Matthew 10?

 

[FreeGrace]

So does an apostate have the Spirit of God in them?

Having believed, meaning a simple occurrence of believing, results in being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.

Please don't take my word for this. But I do suggest considering what the word of God says about it in Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[FreeGrace]

And yet it is being said that if we deny the one who saves us, not just our faith, that we can still be received into eternal life?

If one's later denial, after having believed, can separate us, then Rom 8:38 cannot be true.
" For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,"

For Paul to say "nor the future" means anything that may occur in the future. Which would include "believe for a while" as Jesus noted in Luke 8:13.

Jesus does the saving, but by which medium does He do it? Through faith right? If faith was not needed to save then why must we have it?

If one speaks of "which medium", it is by the power of His own resurrection. That's the medium. What Eph 2:8 refers to is the criteria by which He saves. It is by faith. But faith is NOT the medium for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree.
So what is your point?

Many in OSNAS claim that one is only saved as long as they continue to believe, and then point to the present tense in certain cherry picked verses, all the while ignoring all the verses where the aorist tense (simple occurrence) is used to indicate that one saved by a simple ocurrence of believing.

 

[JLB]

Why ignore the apostates?

Are Apostates Believers or Unbelievers?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"By their claim that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved."

That's what scripture says.
The pertinent passages have been provided to you multiple times.

All that has been provided is Luke 8:13, which does NOT say one ceases to be saved if one only believes for a while.

But here's a bit about your conclusions with reference to the Aorist tense:

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorist

Hermeneutic implications
Because the aorist was not maintained in either Latin or the Germanic languages, there have long been difficulties in translating the Greek New Testament into Western languages. The aorist has often been interpreted as making a strong statement about the aspect or even the time of an event, when, in fact, due to its being the unmarked (default) form of the Greek verb, such implications are often left to context. Thus, within New Testament hermeneutics, it is considered an exegetical fallacy to attach undue significance to uses of the aorist. *** Although one may draw specific implications from an author's use of the imperfective or perfect, no such conclusions can, in general, be drawn from the use of the aorist, which may refer to an action "without specifying whether the action is unique, repeated, ingressive, instantaneous, past, or accomplished." In particular, the aorist does not imply a "once for all" action, as it has commonly been misinterpreted.

***D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, Baker Book House, 1984, ISBN 0-8010-2499-4, p. 70.

What in the world does "undue significance" mean? Does it mean to ignore the very meaning of the aorist tense when it refutes one's theories?

And I've never suggested that the aorist tense means "once for all" action. It DOES mean a simple occurrence, without reference to ANY TIME FRAME. That's what a simple occurrence means.

But those who believe that salvation is lost when one ceases to believe HAVE TO distance themselves from the verses that use the aorist.

So DA Carson, a Calvinist, only gives more ammo, but falsely, to Arminians who believe that salvation can be lost.

 

[JLB]

So?

Once sealed, having believed, one is sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

What does Eph 1:13-14 say?


Can you post the scripture that says once "in Him" it's impossible to be removed from Him?

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB

 

[JLB]

If one's later denial, after having believed, can separate us, then Rom 8:38 cannot be true.
" For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,"

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-38


If a person is cast into the depth of hell, will they be separated from the love of God?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas is the epitome of someone who became faithless.

There is no evidence from Scripture that he ever believed in Jesus as the Messiah.

otoh, there is evidence that he never believed. John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

This is what I learn from these verses:
1. Jesus included those who did not believe with Judas who would betray Him (v.64).
2. Jesus specifically identified Judas as the one who would betray Him.

Moreover, in John 13 Jesus used figurative language to indicate that "not all of you are clean", meaning saved.
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

 

[FreeGrace]

So, does the Spirit of God live in an apostate?

Yep. And grieving the Spirit all the while.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

Please notice that even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't undo the sealing with the Spirit. If that were possible, this would have been the perfect in which to make the statement. But Paul doesn't go there.