Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[JLB]

When you accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, did you accept Him as Savior of all your sins or just some of them?

Those who are in the faith have the right to have their sins forgiven.


Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:5



JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who are in the faith have the right to have their sins forgiven.

Of course. Will you answer the question I asked wondering since you quoted it?

 

[JLB]

I answered that question. Not another question.

I haven’t seen your answer to my question, that asks -

What does the term “the faith” refer to if not faith in Christ?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Of course. Will you answer the question I asked wondering since you quoted it?

When you answer my question, then you can ask me a question that pertains to the topic of this thread.


Here’s my question -

What does the term “the faith” refer to if not faith in Christ?




JLB

 

[Walpole]

Wal,

The Book of Hebrews says God cannot lie, so what he revealed in Hebrews is not lying, but telling the godly truth.

The Book of Hebrews also says, "The brethren from Italy send you their greetings." (Heb 13:24). So what?

Of course God cannot lie. You don't need the book of Hebrews to tell you that. To sin (lying) is to act imperfectly. Hence, if God sinned, He would fail to act perfectly and therefore would be limited in His power to do as He should. Thus, a God who sins is one who contradicts His own perfection and is therefore not God at all.


What the book of Hebrews DOES NOT say is that it is "God’s inerrant, infallible, sufficient, complete, and authoritative revelation of himself to humanity", which you claim, and thus you labeling it such violates your own rule as you have relied on an authority outside of the Bible to declare something as authoritative.

So, in your view, which books of the Bible are theopneustos = breathed out by God = inspired by God?

Oz

All the books the Church so declared.

 

[Walpole]

Sorry bro, by your own admission, those who are taught by the Spirit of Christ are Gnostics, because they don’t use lexicons, seminary’s and books.


What a shameful accusation against Christ and His people.



JLB

"Bro," I think you have confused your own argument.

 

[Walpole]

Could you please explain gnosticism in 25 words or less?
Thanks.

(I'd like to understand how you attribute it to some posters)

Gnosticism covers many beliefs, but the one to which it is being pushed here is this idea of a special knowledge imparted to followers.

I entered this thread by asking the question: "Who or what has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?"

One poster in particular continues to insist believers are somehow infused / given the knowledge by the "Spirit of Christ".

This is very gnostic. For one of the very missions Christ charged the Church with was to teach. If the "Spirit of Christ" was going to do all the instructing to each individual believer, His command to "teach all nations" would be futile.

 

[JLB]

One poster in particular continues to insist believers are someone infused / given the knowledge by the "Spirit of Christ".

Does Christ dwell in believers?

Does Christ teach us?



JLB

 

[Walpole]

• Canons 6, 7, 11: Condemnation and repression of marriage and concubinage among priests, deacons, subdeacons, monks, and nuns.

Speaks for itself.

You are conflating impediments with forbidding.

This is about their freedom of choice to become an ordained priest (or not). It says nothing about the requirements (which are many but includes being unmarried) for qualifying.

Exactly. A priest is not forced to become a priest. He freely chooses to do so.

Same with marriage. If a person is forced into a marriage, it is invalid.

In the Western Church, with a few exceptions, clergy are not married. It is an ancient tradition of the Church dating back to Apostolic times.

This is about the bride/groom (the parties), not the priest’s qualification.

Right, and it was posted because you asked "Says who?" when I posted that priesthood, like marriage, is not and cannot be forced upon anyone, otherwise it would invalidate it. Priesthood, like marriage, must be entered into freely.

I gave you canons stating priests must freely choose to be priests and that married couples must freely choose to enter into marriage.

The witness of the early Church testifies to the fact that celibacy was the practice of the majority of the Apostolic fathers, that is, those who immediately succeeded the Apostles. Married clergy in the early Church was a concession at first since the earliest Christians were converts, many of whom were Jewish males already married. Furthermore, those clergy who were married in the ancient Church were expected to practice clerical continence.

 

[Walpole]

Does Christ dwell in believers?

Yes, of course.

Does Christ teach us?
JLB

Yes, by means of the instrument He left: The Church

(He does not teach by means of some infused knowledge a believer magically obtains.)

 

[chessman]

When you answer my question, then you can ask me a question that pertains to the topic of this thread.

Okay, thanks for giving me your new rule for when I can ask you a question that pertains to the topic of this thread (Believing in Wrong Doctrine: will I lose my salvation?.

So now, in these later posts of this thread, having now been forbidden by you to ask you a question until which time I answer yours, I will abstain from asking you a question (even one you quoted but don’t answer). I will answer your logical question then wait for your answer to mine (that you quoted but didn’t answer). I sure do hope I haven’t departed from the true rules of this forum though and have been deceived into following a later rule, whic is a departure from the truth.

What does the term “the faith” refer to if not faith in Christ?

“the faith”

Waiting for your answer, waiting, waiting ...

 

[Walpole]

Your demeaning posts are very undesirable to me.

I take time to answer you and you NEVER understand me...so I somewhat feel like I'm wasting my time.

If a person is forbidden to do something, it means someone is telling him not to do a certain thing. If you FORBID me to go see a movie ever again,,,it means I will no longer be able to go see any movie ever again.

If you tell me I must wash the dishes OR be forbidden to go see movies,,,then it's MY CHOICE to either wash the dishes or not wash the dishes.

If I wash them, I get to see movies.
If I don't wash them, I'll l never see a movie again.

It becomes MY CHOICE as to whether or not I ever see a movie again.

You don't like analogies,,,like the one about departing from India meaning I'M LEAVING India...but, alas, it's the only way I know of to clarify what I'm saying to you.

Men KNOW they will not be able to marry IF they become a priest.

SO...

It's THEIR decision whether to marry, OR become a priest.
It's THEIR CHOICE.

Not marrying is just another condition...like any other condition in being a priest....

You may wish to be sarcastic with my replies and in your attitude, the fact is that I happen to know priests personally and they understand that they cannot be FORBIDDEN something they KNEW would be a CONDITION.

Good post. It is a historical fact there is no tradition in the Church (either in the West or the East) where priests get married. The Apostles were married PRIOR to being called to the office of Apostle. This establishes the tradition: One can be married and become a priest (in the East and in some cases in the West), but one cannot be a priest and THEN get married.

All vocations are entered into freely.

I think some people conflate impediment with forbidding.

 

[JLB]

Yes, of course.



Yes, by means of the instrument He left: The Church

Where does the Church receive its doctrine?

(He does not teach by means of some infused knowledge a believer magically obtains.)

Of course not, no one here has ever implied such nonsense.


If Christ dwells in us, why would He not teach us, or speak to us?


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13



Here is one of the promises of the New Covenant.


No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:34




Can you give us some biblical reasons why Jesus Christ the Teacher, who dwells in believers, would not teach us?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Okay, thanks for giving me your new rule for when I can ask you a question that pertains to the topic of this thread (Believing in Wrong Doctrine: will I lose my salvation?.

So now, in these later posts of this thread, having now been forbidden by you to ask you a question until which time I answer yours, I will abstain from asking you a question (even one you quoted but don’t answer). I will answer your logical question then wait for your answer to mine (that you quoted but didn’t answer). I sure do hope I haven’t departed from the true rules of this forum though and have been deceived into following a later rule, whic is a departure from the truth.



“the faith”

Waiting for your answer, waiting, waiting ...

Finally you see that the term “the faith” refers to faith in Christ, just as Paul mentioned in the context.


For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, 1 Timothy 3:13-4:1



Thank you for coming around.


Amen.


Those who depart from the faith, are no longer saved.




JLB

 

[chessman]

You are conflating impediments with forbidding.

How so since I’ve not mentioned any impediments? Are you sure it’s me that conflating two different words?

In the Western Church, with a few exceptions, clergy are not married.

“Exception”:

a person or thing that is excluded from a general statement or does not follow a rule.​

There is a rule in the Roman Catholic Church that forbides priests from being married. That’s my point.

Right, and it was posted because you asked "Says who?" when I posted that priesthood, like marriage, is not and cannot be forced upon anyone,

Forced marriages occur every day. Not that it has anything to do with the topic.

I gave you canons stating priests must freely choose to be priests and that married couples must freely choose to enter into marriage.

I know. I gave you a canon (issued in 1139) that condemned marriage among Roman Catholic priests.

Are you sure you are not conflating whether a man freely chooses to follow this canon (or not) with there being a canon???

 

[chessman]

you see that the term “the faith” refers to faith in Christ,

More assumption to what I stated and no answer to a direct question.

 

[JLB]

More assumption to what I stated and no answer to a direct question.

I don’t understand this statement.


Here’s my question -

What does the term “the faith” refer to if not faith in Christ?


Many times you switch the answer to my question was to be found in the following verses, that you said I left out.


Then in the last post you changed your answer to “the faith”.


Which tells me you changed your position since you changed your answer.



JLB

 

[chessman]

What does the term “the faith” refer to if not faith in Christ?

“the faith”

 

[GodsGrace]

Much like this:

The law of Yahweh is perfect, reviving life. Yahweh, please forgive me of not perfectly living according to your law.

The ordinances of Yahweh are true; they are righteous altogether. Yahweh, please forgive me for not being altogether righteous.

Yahweh, please acquit me from my hidden faults.


No. It means He will forgive us sins of which we know nothing about.

When you accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, did you accept Him as Savior of all your sins or just some of them?

I hope you know that sacrifices were made for unknown sins. The known sins were forgive by asking...in the O.T.

If we never asked forgiveness of unknown sins they would not be imputed to us.

You had to go all the way back to Leviticus to get a verse for support. Can you find one in the N.T. that says we are imputed with sin even if we don't know it's a sin?

And where did you learn what you're stating?
I learned from two different churches.

If you don't know an act is a sin...to YOU it is not a sin.
I'll go even further and say that something could be a sin to one person but not to another person.
James 4:17

Romans 5:12
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.

If I don't know the law, God will not impute that sin to me.
Ignorance of the law does not work here on earth...but God is more just than any lawgiver on earth.

Please don't forget to ask forgiveness of your unknown sins...

 

[GodsGrace]

Gnosticism covers many beliefs, but the one to which it is being pushed here is this idea of a special knowledge imparted to followers.

I entered this thread by asking the question: "Who or what has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?"

One poster in particular continues to insist believers are somehow infused / given the knowledge by the "Spirit of Christ".

This is very gnostic. For one of the very missions Christ charged the Church with was to teach. If the "Spirit of Christ" was going to do all the instructing to each individual believer, His command to "teach all nations" would be futile.

I don't believe there are any gnostics on this forum.
There are many that believe we are taught by Christ as in the N.T., or by the Holy Spirit.

To be honest, I don't really know what this means. Persons that say the Holy Spirit teaches us believe very different theologies. I believe they might mean that we can learn from theologians, of a church for instance, but we need the Holy Spirit in order to understand what we're learning.

I know this is the case with me. I learned from both the Catholic Church and the Nazarene Church. Both very simple and straightforward churches with no odd or weird beliefs.
Each one with biblical backing....

Having said that. I do need to understand doctrine and come to accept it on my own. Here is where the Holy Spirit speaks to us in a more personal way to help us accept doctrine.

For instance, the CC accepts 1 Corinthinas 3:11-15 as support for purgatory. I just can't see this in those verses...and thus my problem with purgatory.

Not everyone that is born again speaks in tongues....and thus my problem with the belief that if we're spirit filled we'll speak in tongues. (this would not be the Nazarene church BTW...I'm thinking of other churches that teach this).

I don't believe anyone on this forum is claiming SPECIAL knowledge in the sense that the gnostics understood it. They based their whole belief on KNOWLEDGE instead of God's teachings. Jesus did not teach, for instance, that the body is separate from the soul. They thought this was special knowledge only they had.