Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[JLB]

I have answered this question numerous times. And you still didn’t answer mine (like you said you would), BTW. It means “the faith”, just like it says.

So when Paul says by the Spirit that some will depart from the faith, we understand that to mean they will depart from the faith in Christ, as the context says, and not some
“faith in food” or “faith in marriage” as you previously claimed.

Am I now understanding your theology?



JLB

 

[JLB]

He teaches us by the means He left us: The Church.

For the Church is charged with teaching and sanctifying. (cf. Mt. 28:18-20) Hence, the Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Where does “the Church” get its teaching today?



JLB

 

[JLB]

It helps if you quote the passage in context, as the Apostle is referring not to some infused knowledge,

I never claimed some “infused knowledge” those are your words, not mine.


When the Lord who dwells in your heart speaks to you, is that “infused knowledge”?


I’m not familiar with this term.


Is it in the Bible?



JLB

 

[blair032]

blair,

Do you mean that these verses do not warn about loss of salvation?

1. Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV);
2. Hebrews 10:26 (ESV);
3. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 (ESV);

Oz

Hebrews 6:4-6
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4–6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but who have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase tasted the heavenly gift (Hebrews 6:4) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3–23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases partakers of the Holy Ghost, enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift are all descriptions of true believers.

This second interpretation is based on an alternate translation, found in the KJV and a few others, in which Hebrews 6:6 begins with the phrase if they fall away, with the key word being if. According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away.” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

In this view, the passage presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity. The weakness of this view is that the Greek text does not contain a word equivalent to the English if.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation, which has a stronger textual basis, presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second, weaker interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many passages make it abundantly clear that salvation is everlasting (John 10:27–29; Romans 8:35, 38–39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4–5), and Hebrews 6:4–6 confirms that doctrine.

Hebrews 10:26

Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately.

1 Timoth 1:18-20

Since the word 'faith' is interchangeable with the word "gospel," this is referring to those that reject the system of the gospel.
Shipwreck denote entire destruction of faith.
Ship wreck is made concerning faith when men and women lose their faith in the nobleness of human destiny, and in the importance and possibility of attaining it.
A man has made shipwreck concerning faith when he loses those elements of character which are the results of faith. “They that will be rich fall into temptation and snares; for the love of money is the root of all evil.”
Thing is, just like Paul's shipwreck, people can be shipwrecked, but not totally falling away from grace & their faith.
It can also be referring to those that have no true grace, & therefore be shipwrecked so as to be lost forever.

 

[blair032]

Blair,

I'd appreciate it if you provided exegetical (out of the text) support for your statement that such a person 'never was a true believer'.

Oz

Sorry. A false Christian ..... meaning those that give the impression they are a true believer, but have not accepted Jesus as a Christian must. Ya know, like a Sunday church goer, but that's pretty much the totality of their faith.

 

[blair032]

Please clarify. I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.

Timothy referred to those that were never believers in the 1st place. They were giving false messages from jump. 'Seducing spirits' tell us this fact.

 

[Northman]

(Real scenario today being practiced in peoples' lives)

I teach my family to abstain from certain foods.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 describes what I'm doing as a sign of someone who has departed the faith and following the doctrines of demons.

Have I lost my salvation?

 

[chessman]

I teach my family to abstain from certain foods.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 describes what I'm doing

If you teach them to abstain from trans fat fried fish because the fat content is 10 times or more that of baked or grilled fish, then your are not doing what 1 Tim 4:1-3 describes (whether you are saved or not).

If you teach them to abstain from trans fat fried fish because doing so will condemn you to rejection by Christ, then your are doing what 1 Tim 4:1-3 describes as “departing from the faith” (whether you are saved or not).

Pretty simple, right?

Have I lost my salvation?

Do you believe Christ is the Son of God, your Savior, who died and rose for your sins?

If yes, you are saved (fried fish eating or not)
If no, you are not (fried fish eating or not).

 

[ezra]

your going back and forth and getting no where it says in latter times some will depart. the type people we dont know .the times we live in makes me wonder if were not in them days. i often wonder if the great falling away is those who never were truly saved

 

[WIP]

"the two shall become one flesh"

So then do you also believe that marriage begins with sexual intercourse?

Follow-up question. How do you explain the difference between a concubine or harlot or prostitute and a wife as they are described in the Bible?

 

[ezra]

So then do you also believe that marriage begins with sexual intercourse?

only between man and wife after marriage Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. sex out side a marriage falls under whoremongers and adulterers .

 

[WIP]

only between man and wife after marriage Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. sex out side a marriage falls under whoremongers and adulterers .

So then one can be married even if it is not consummated?

 

[ezra]

So then one can be married even if it is not consummated?

what a silly question ... if man AND wife decides to not have sex even after marriage .that has no bearing on the couple being married this is religion at its best

 

[OzSpen]

(some priests are married, BTW)

wondering,

I don't know of any married RC priests in my region. Well, they haven't received mass media publicity to single them out.

Are there married priests in Italy?

Do you know of other countries where married priests exist in the RCC?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen ,

In a discussion (mind you not a logical debate but just a simple discussion), when one person says;
“You only sin when you KNOW it's a sin.”

and another person says;
“If a person when he sins violates one from all of Yahweh’s commands that should not be violated, but he did not know, then he is guilty and he shall bear his guilt.

do these two persons agree or disagree?

How does your question relate to my statement to wondering that when a person changes the subject, he/she commits a red herring logical fallacy?

 

[GodsGrace]

OzSpen

—

QUOTE="OzSpen, post: 1495123, member: 7153"]wondering,

I don't know of any married RC priests in my region. Well, they haven't received mass media publicity to single them out.

Are there married priests in Italy?

Do you know of other countries where married priests exist in the RCC? I

Oz

There are Catholic priests that are married.
This happens because some Anglican priests convert to Catholicism.

Anglican priests can be married, so when they convert they're given a special dispensation.

And so, we have Roman Catholic priests that are married.

 

[chessman]

So when Paul says by the Spirit that some will depart from the faith, we understand that to mean they will depart from the faith in Christ,

Right, thanks for admitting that your understanding is based on adding to what Paul actually said in the passage. In the very same sentence are Paul’s two excellent contextual examples of departing from “the faith”. Neither having anything to do with Christ.

not some
“faith in food” or “faith in marriage” as you previously claimed.

I never claimed “faith in food” or “faith in marriage” was “the faith”. That’s just more error and assuming on your part.

Am I now understanding your theology?

No, obviously not. By having to make up mis-quotes, it’s evident you don’t understand.

If you want to truly understand what departure from “the faith” is in 1 Tim 4:1-3, why not quote from his teo examples and how they apply to “depart from the faith” using his conclusion stated in 1 Tim 4:4-5??? Like I did in post #100, the first time I

You will not find what you assume there, that’s why.

 

[Northman]

For a thought, word, deed or omission to be a sin and imputed to the person, it must be a known sin to him.

No. Luke 12:48.

 

[chessman]

How does your question relate to my statement to wondering that when a person changes the subject, he/she commits a red herring logical fallacy?

In two ways:
1. My question was taken from her quote (not mine) and compared to Scripture directly related to (contradicting actually) the subject we were discussing. Not some other subject.

2. Red Herring fallacy is a fallacy used sometimes with a formal debate. We are not debating, we’re discussing the subject of known sin versus unknown sin. Are they both sin???

What we were not discussing (until lately when she brought it up) was imputation.

 

[Northman]

If you teach them to abstain from trans fat fried fish because the fat content is 10 times or more that of baked or grilled fish, then your are not doing what 1 Tim 4:1-3 describes (whether you are saved or not).

If you teach them to abstain from trans fat fried fish because doing so will condemn you to rejection by Christ, then your are doing what 1 Tim 4:1-3 describes as “departing from the faith” (whether you are saved or not).

Pretty simple, right?



Do you believe Christ is the Son of God, your Savior, who died and rose for your sins?

If yes, you are saved (fried fish eating or not)
If no, you are not (fried fish eating or not).

I knew mostly how you would reply to that though. Is that cheating?