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Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

chessman said:
So...are you ready to discuss 1 Tim 4???
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Yes.


chessman said:
Let’s (both of us) put every pre-conception aside just for a moment and give loss of salvation vs not loss of salvation a 50/50 chance of being the correct teaching (the truth) of Scripture and re-read 1 Tim 4 again. Let’s try something different and start at verse 6
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Verse 6 summed up the instructions Paul gave Timothy about Church leadership, which began in the previous chapter, and is a good read for all of us, to be instructed and "nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine"


Here it is -

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.
1 Timothy 3:1-4:6



Being a "good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine" goes hand in hand with "holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience".



JLB
 
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JohnDB said:
She is saying that you are not aware of her words.
She wants to know what exactly you thought she said to get such a reply from you?
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Right.
It seems like I said something wrong, but what I said seems to be a good thing to me....
 
chessman said:
In the original apostolic churches (as evidenced by the following Scriptures), the priests had the following requirements. Notice they were required to be a husband.

Therefore the overseer must be irreproachable, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching, not addicted to wine, not a violent person, but gentle, peaceable, not loving money, managing his own household well, having children in submission with all dignity (but if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), not newly converted, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the devil. But he must also have a good testimony from those outside, in order that he may not fall into disgrace and the trap of the devil.​
1 Timothy 3:2-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:2-7&version=LEB



By the year 1139 A.D. the RCC had departed from this faith and decreed the following canon, which forbids priests from being a husband:

6. We also decree that those in the orders of subdeacon and above who have taken wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they ought to be in fact and in name temples of God, vessels of the Lord and sanctuaries of the holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they give themselves up to marriage and impurity.​
​
​
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Completely erroneous. Nowhere is a married clergy stated to be a REQUIREMENT. Rather, St. Paul is clear in the passage you quoted to his young (and celibate!) bishop, St. Timonty, that any married bishops of the early Church were to be the husband of one wife, not multiple wives; i.e. not divorced and remarried. Nowhere does the Apostle state a bishop must be married. Rather, he states if he is married, he is to be the husband of one wife.

Again, if you know your Church history, you will know the vast majority of the Apostolic fathers - that would be those who immediately succeeded an Apostle in a particular see - were celibate. Married clergy was a concession in the early Church, for like Peter, the first adherents to the faith were converts who were already married. Furthermore, those clergy who were married in the early Church were expected to practice clerical continence.

I always find it humorous when folks quote St. Paul's epistle to his young bishop St. Timothy to try and prove married clergy was a requirement. The paradox this creates for for those using it as some sort of proof (which it isn't) is that St. Paul himself was celibate (cf 1 Cor 7:7-9), as were Sts. Timothy and Titus. Thus, if St. Pul is stating marriage is a requirement, he violated his own instruction.
 
OzSpen said:
Are you talking about the canon of Scripture of the Council/Synod of Carthage of AD 397 that confirmed the canon of Scripture? Some of the deuterocanonical books (Apocrypha) were included? The Book of Hebrews was included in this canon.

So, is the Book of Hebrews contained in the inerrant/infallible Scriptures?

Oz
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I'm talking about the canon of Scripture declared by the Church, from Carthage, Rome, affirmed by Damasus, Innocent, Galasius and Florence, defined dogmatically at Trent, and reaffirmed yet again at the First Vatican Council.

And yes, the Book of Hebrews is contained in the canon of Scriptures declared so by the Church.
 
OzSpen said:
Again, you fail to document your statements.

When you do it this way, you force me to go looking to see if what you said is true. That's not the way it should be on a forum where information is shared. Pleas help that info to be legit by documentation of your evidence.
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From the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium)

Canon 373 - Clerical celibacy chosen for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and suited to the priesthood is to be greatly esteemed everywhere, as supported by the tradition of the whole Church; likewise, the hallowed practice of married clerics in the primitive Church and in the tradition of the Eastern Churches throughout the ages is to be held in honor.


Source
 
WIP said:
I noticed you didn't include consummation. Why not?
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Because a consummation does not make a marriage.

The inability to consummate is an impediment to marriage and therefore make the marriage invalid. However, if a couple chooses not to consummate, it is still valid.
 
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JLB said:
Please post the scripture that says the Church is apostolic?


There are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.



JLB
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"...built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone." (Eph 2:20)
 
JLB said:
Paul was not attacking correct gnostic beliefs.

The Holy Spirit was warning through Paul that in the “latter times”, referring to a time period in did not live in, nor was he familiar with, some would depart from the faith, because they listened and followed doctrines of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB
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You are clearly talking out of your hat here. Below is a link to several Protestant commentaries affirming St. Paul is warning St. Timothy about the Gnostics...

---> https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/4-3.htm
 
Walpole said:
Yes, but it also includes the Orthodox Church, as they are the only two Churches with a pedigree dating back to Christ.
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Says who?


Each of us have the Spirit to lead us and guide us into all truth.



JLB
 
Walpole said:
You are clearly talking out of your hat here. Below is a link to several Protestant commentaries affirming St. Paul is warning St. Timothy about the Gnostics...

---> https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/4-3.htm
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More commentary?


Just read the scripture.


Paul is prophesying by the Spirit about a time in the future.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3


  • forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods

The Holy Spirit is clearly warning about the doctrines that were to come from the Roman Catholic Church.


Forbidding priests to marry.



JLB
 
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