Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[stovebolts]

I think that statement in James means exactly what it says. If you know to do something good but choose not to it, it is sin.

Do you recall what Paul said about eating meat offered to idols? To some it is sin and to others it is not. But for the one that calls it sin, he should not eat it and when we are around that person, he should not see us eat it.

1 Corinthians 8

An example might be alcohol. I would not have a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic anymore than I would offer him a glass and cause him to sin we have a responsibility with our freedom in Christ

 

[Northman]

Do you recall what Paul said about eating meat offered to idols? To some it is sin and to others it is not. But for the one that calls it sin, he should not eat it and when we are around that person, he should not see us eat it.

1 Corinthians 8

An example might be alcohol. I would not have a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic anymore than I would offer him a glass and cause him to sin we have a responsibility with our freedom in Christ

Yes I do recall. I thought his little lament of a meal ruined by an immature believer was very human.

I do not think this in any way translates to more than what it says, and in this conversation the presented principle is that sin isn't sin until it is known that it is sin. One quoted from the OT, I quoted from the NT, that showed in both plain law and parable, that God sees wrong as wrong no matter if we do or not. Him forgiving us in our ignorance is still forgiving, not there being nothing to forgive. Less stripes means less stripes, not no stripes. That sort of thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Same as you on that one

You realize I love you (even if we disagree on some things), right?

The feeling is mutual Chessman.
We're all brothers in the Lord here.
As long as we agree on the big things...which I'm sure we all do.

OK... On to sin...

My point is that God does not hold us responsible if we commit a sin we do not know is a sin.

To God sin is sin...this goes without saying.
But He does NOT attribute to us a sin if we don't even know we're sinning!

I believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins. Maybe smoking wasn't a sin to me before,,,maybe now it is because I understand that my body is a temple for the Holy Spirit.

(I never smoked)

So, when I was smoking before, I was not sinning,,,NOW, I would be sinning because I've come to a different understanding.

The N.T. writers tell us to GROW in the KNOWLEDGE of God.
2 Peter 3:18
2 Peter 1:8

A new believer, for instance, will not be held accountable as he will be ignorant of the smaller nuances of God's law. Everyone knows the big sins, but as we grow closer to God we become more aware of "small" sins.

See Acts 17:30
In times of ignorance God overlooked repentance....but NOW God declares that all men must repent.

As we learn more, more will be expected of us.
Luke 12:48

Once we know something is a sin,,,then God expects us to adhere to His ordinances and obey Him.
Hebrews 10:26

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually there's scripture to this point...

Luke details several parables that Jesus told together to show the different types of sin. Each one being progressively worse. (All have the same punishment (death) but the forgiveness required becomes more difficult with the severity)

Lost Sheep...sin of ignorance
Lost Coin......sin of negligence
Lost (prodigal)Son.......two sins covered with this one...the son who went away knew that what he had planned was sinful but did it anyway. The angry son refused to forgive and join the celebration and this unforgiving/judgemental attitude is the most difficult for God to forgive.

But then Luke tells us the follow up to this (because we are human and can't forgive like God can) about the shrewd manager who forgave each person seemingly different proportions of their debts...but actually the amount of debt forgiven was equal amongst the various people. But some owed more than others and kept a larger portion of their debts. And since the manager did this he keeps his job... which is saying that we all have to forgive as much as we can...but perfection is God's and God's alone.

But this should answer the question about the types of sin.

Thanks John,,,
The above is such a good study.
I only knew about the sin of the Prodigal Son...
and the brother, etc....

 

[JLB]

Do you recall what Paul said about eating meat offered to idols? To some it is sin and to others it is not. But for the one that calls it sin, he should not eat it and when we are around that person, he should not see us eat it.

1 Corinthians 8

An example might be alcohol. I would not have a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic anymore than I would offer him a glass and cause him to sin we have a responsibility with our freedom in Christ

I don't see how our different interpretations of the text determines our salvation.

Actually there's scripture to this point...

Luke details several parables that Jesus told together to show the different types of sin. Each one being progressively worse. (All have the same punishment (death) but the forgiveness required becomes more difficult with the severity)

Lost Sheep...sin of ignorance
Lost Coin......sin of negligence
Lost (prodigal)Son.......two sins covered with this one...the son who went away knew that what he had planned was sinful but did it anyway. The angry son refused to forgive and join the celebration and this unforgiving/judgemental attitude is the most difficult for God to forgive.

But then Luke tells us the follow up to this (because we are human and can't forgive like God can) about the shrewd manager who forgave each person seemingly different proportions of their debts...but actually the amount of debt forgiven was equal amongst the various people. But some owed more than others and kept a larger portion of their debts. And since the manager did this he keeps his job... which is saying that we all have to forgive as much as we can...but perfection is God's and God's alone.

But this should answer the question about the types of sin.

Lots of good stuff going on here.

Would everyone participating in this thread care to vote, in response to the thread title?


Believing in wrong doctrine: will I lose my salvation?

• Yes:
• No:
• Other:

If you vote, please list the scripture as to why.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Most or all? What about new Christians that don’t know much about the commandments of God? And we were not necessarily talking about Christians anyway.

Are you making my point?
"What about new Christians that don't know mucha bout the commandments of God?"
EXACTLY!
God is not going to hold them responsible.
And I WAS speaking about Christians.
Unbelievers do not have to adhere to any commandment...they can't get anymore lost than lost.
It's we Christians that must adhere to God's law.

Transgression of God’s law is transgression whether someone knows the law or not. She disagreed with this. Do you?

What I'm saying C, is that God will not hold a person responsible for committing an unknown sin (to them).
Please understand this.

She said:
1.

Actually, it means to disobey any law. I showed her this from a Bible dictionary.

And I provided Scriptures that demonstrate sin by individuals that didn’t even know they’d sinned. And there’s more too (old and New Testament).


2.
This is incorrect on a secular definition as well. If you transgress a speed limit, you have broken the speed limit. It doesn’t matter if you KNEW (all caps or small) what the speed limit was.

And it’s a topic related to the OP.



What do you think after reading this passage;

If a person violates one of Yahweh’s commands that shouldn’t be violated is he quilty, whether he knew the command or not?

1. In the secular world ignorance is no excuse.
GOD is better than the secular world.

2. We are not held guilty by God unless we understand what we did.

James 4:17
If we know to do good and do not do it,,,,we sin.
If God reveals to us something to do and we do not do it...THEN it is sin.

 

[JLB]

The feeling is mutual Chessman.
We're all brothers in the Lord here.
As long as we agree on the big things...which I'm sure we all do.

I wish that were true.


I would say one of the big things is “the faith”.

That would be up there with “there is only one way to God”, or there is only “one name under heaven by which man can be saved”.


If someone departs from the faith, how can they still be saved?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct.

Put another way; Is unknown sin, sin?

To who?

 

[GodsGrace]

I wish that were true.


I would say one of the big things is “the faith”.

That would be up there with “there is only one way to God”, or there is only “one name under heaven by which man can be saved”.


If someone departs from the faith, how can they still be saved?



JLB

I don't think that's what chessman means.
I think he meant RULES of the faith...
The rules...not the faith itself.

Maybe he could answer this....

 

[ezrider]

I believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins.

As we grow closer to the Lord we should grow in the knowledge of his Righteousness. Yet you have stated here that you grow closer to the knowledge of unrighteousness.

A servant of sin seeks the knowledge of sin, and as Paul stated, they hold the TRUTH in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[GodsGrace]

As we grow closer to the Lord we should grow in the knowledge of his Righteousness. Yet you have stated here that you grow closer to the knowledge of unrighteousness.

A servant of sin seeks the knowledge of sin, and as Paul stated, they hold the TRUTH in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Hi EZ,
How did you get the above from what I said?

Here's what I said, to which you're responding:

wondering said:
I believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins.


I mean, really, I'm not kidding....Is my posting so not understandable?

HOW did you come up with your reply?
What do you think I was saying,,, in your own words?

Please reply.

 

[JLB]

I don't think that's what chessman means.
I think he meant RULES of the faith...
The rules...not the faith itself.

Maybe he could answer this....

The rules of the faith, ( which refers to the faith in Christ) is obedience to Christ and His teachings, doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB

 

[chessman]

My point is that God does not hold us responsible if we commit a sin we do not know is a sin.

Okay, I agree with that too. I never said otherwise. But that is different than committing an unknown sin and that not being a trespass. But moving on...

Maybe smoking wasn't a sin to me before,,,maybe now it is because I understand that my body is a temple for the Holy Spirit.

The High Priests smoked in the Temple. Smoked meat! That’s a joke, just to be clear.

So...are you ready to discuss 1 Tim 4???

I believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins.

I agree. It is one of the roles of the Holy Spirit to ensure this occurs. And He’s quite good at it. Some say Perfect.

Let’s (both of us) put every pre-conception aside just for a moment and give loss of salvation vs not loss of salvation a 50/50 chance of being the correct teaching (the truth) of Scripture and re-read 1 Tim 4 again. Let’s try something different and start at verse 6

By teaching these things to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, trained in the words of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed faithfully.​

1 Timothy 4:6

Would you agree that the apostle Paul is telling Timothy (a 1st generation NT pastor) to teach “these things” (we’ll define what “these things” are in a minute from the Text) to Christian brothers if he is to be a “good servant” of Christ Jesus?

 

[ezrider]

Hi EZ,
How did you get the above from what I said?

Here's what I said, to which you're responding:

wondering said:
I believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins.


I mean, really, I'm not kidding....Is my posting so not understandable?

HOW did you come up with your reply?
What do you think I was saying,,, in your own words?

Please reply.

Are you unaware of your own words?

 

[JohnDB]

Are you unaware of your own words?

She is saying that you are not aware of her words.
She wants to know what exactly you thought she said to get such a reply from you?

 

[ezra]

Most or all? What about new Christians that don’t know much about the commandments of God? And we were not necessarily talking about Christians anyway.

Transgression of God’s law is transgression whether someone knows the law or not. She disagreed with this. Do you?

yes and no if one is not Christian it really doesn't matter .new Christians to some degree but a general rule of thumb they will know .admittedly the sin of commission yes.. i feel there is some gnat straining in all this

 

[ezrider]

She is saying that you are not aware of her words.
She wants to know what exactly you thought she said to get such a reply from you?

I’m perfectly aware of her words. She said she grows in the knowledge of sin.

 

[ezra]

he heart of non-believers is desperately

8He will be like a tree planted by the waters that sends out its roots toward the stream. It does not fear when the heat comes, and its leaves are always green. It will not worry in a year of drought or cease producing fruit. 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure— who can understand it? 10 I, the LORD, search the heart; I test the mind to reward a man according to his way, by what his deeds deserve.… where does it say non believers in scripture in reference to Jeremiah ? it say the Heart is.. even though i agree non believers do..but we are being bible correct right? i will say all Christians should know . come judgment day ignorance will not hold up..saved or lost

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I agree with that too. I never said otherwise. But that is different than committing an unknown sin and that not being a trespass. But moving on...


The High Priests smoked in the Temple. Smoked meat! That’s a joke, just to be clear.

So...are you ready to discuss 1 Tim 4???


I agree. It is one of the roles of the Holy Spirit to ensure this occurs. And He’s quite good at it. Some say Perfect.

Let’s (both of us) put every pre-conception aside just for a moment and give loss of salvation vs not loss of salvation a 50/50 chance of being the correct teaching (the truth) of Scripture and re-read 1 Tim 4 again. Let’s try something different and start at verse 6

By teaching these things to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, trained in the words of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed faithfully.​

1 Timothy 4:6

Would you agree that the apostle Paul is telling Timothy (a 1st generation NT pastor) to teach “these things” (we’ll define what “these things” are in a minute from the Text) to Christian brothers if he is to be a “good servant” of Christ Jesus?

Hi Chessman,
I just came back to shut down the computer.
I do stay logged on at times so I don't want you to think I'm here...It's past midnight here.

Will do this tomorrow.

Just quick...Paul is telling Timothy that he (Timothy) has been taught the faith and the doctrine. So yes, he's telling Timothy to teach these things he has learned to be a good servant. He says the words of the faith....

Tomorrow...
Night.

 

[ezra]

OK... On to sin...

My point is that God does not hold us responsible if we commit a sin we do not know is a sin.

To God sin is sin...this goes without saying.
But He does NOT attribute to us a sin if we don't even know we're sinning!

I believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins. Maybe smoking wasn't a sin to me before,,,maybe now it is because I understand that my body is a temple for the Holy Spirit.

(I never smoked)

So, when I was smoking before, I was not sinning,,,NOW, I would be sinning because I've come to a different understanding.

sorry but we are held accountable imo having a unction that we may know all things.. the holy spirit will prick our heart and let us know .this is where repent comes in to turn from... QUOTE] believe that as we grow closer to God we become more and more aware of different sins.[/QUOTE] i agree with this . as kids we heard the song o be careful little eyes what you see i think hands then speak ,for the father up above is looking down on you. we are as little children. i agree on smoking even though i could never pick the habit up ..i sure smoked my share of weed 2 i always said i helped write a few pages in pleasure of sin for a season . Lord knows i was not a good person in my days before Christ. i been studying on this scripture woke up thinking about it .

1 John 3

7 Children, let no one deceive you. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who commits[f] sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[g] because his seed remains in him; he is not able to sin,[h] because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children and the devil’s children become obvious. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother or sister.