Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[JLB]

Nothing Christ EVER said will get you saved. Paul is the only teacher, preacher, and apostle we Gentiles have. PERIOD!

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Whoever covers everyone.



I wish there was something in your post I can agree with, but there just isn’t.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Did Christ EVER tell you how to be saved --Nooooooooooooooo!. Did Christ EVER tell you that you can possibly spend eternity in the Highest Heaven --Noooooooooooooooo!. The 2 most important things and Christ had no answer for them. Actually, that's because His ministry had absolutely nothing to do with Gentiles. That's what He selected and trained Paul for. It's called delegation of authority. Paul did a great job handing those 2 questions. Jesus Christ is the foundation, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs?

acts 28,

Here you committed a loaded question logical fallacy. This means 'You asked a question that had a presumption built into it so that it couldn't be answered without appearing guilty'.

Those presumptions were: Did Jesus ever tell you:

• 'how to be saved'?
• 'that you can spend eternity in the Highest Heaven'?

You do not present to us a question that allows us to search the Scriptures, e.g.

• What does the Bible say about how a person may receive eternal life? Your fallacy prevents the answering of this kind of question.
• How can you spend eternity with God?

Logical fallacies prevent reasonable discussion of the issues. They amount to erroneous reasoning. Here you have used a loaded question or a complex question fallacy.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Your point about 1Cor 15:1-4 is totally pointless

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was the 100% Israel Gospel of the Kingdom, which has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation and nothing at all to do with any Gentile living today. Christ was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Mt 15:24. PERIOD!!! Christ selected Paul to be the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles. For Gentiles, Paul is the very LAST WORD above everybody, including Christ, who was solely a minister to Israel. If His teaching was also to the Gentiles, Paul would not be needed. Since Paul was trained by Christ in the many special revelations he received, Paul's words are Christ's Words. Every Word Paul wrote was God-breathed by Christ. Nothing Christ EVER said will get you saved. Paul is the only teacher, preacher, and apostle we Gentiles have. PERIOD!

Everything Paul preached and taught was from Christ.



JLB

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Obey His Gospel, commandments and doctrine.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10




JLB

IF your take on this is right we are all in great danger. ALL.

 

[Senior]

Everything Paul preached and taught was from Christ.

Yes, the Lord taught Paul in the desert places for 17 years
before he really began his ministry to the Gentiles
(see Galatians 1:18 and Galatians 2:1).

 

[JLB]

IF your take on this is right we are all in great danger. ALL.

Why?


These scriptures are directed at myself first.


He loves us, and He is for us.

He died in our place so we could live with Him, joined in covenant relationship to Him as a Husband is joined to His bride.

He longs for us to know Him and spend time with Him.

The more we spend time in His presence the more we desire to please Him.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, the Lord taught Paul in the desert places for 17 years
before he really began his ministry to the Gentiles
(see Galatians 1:18 and Galatians 2:1).

God bless you sir.

Thank you.


Not many understand this.


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Truthfrees,

i realize most people are not going to be able to learn greek and hebrew - so for them they can listen to good teachers who bring out the power of God's words from the original languages - or they can get a greek hebrew transliteration bible - hard copy or computer program.

if you want to learn on your own i recommend you get a greek/hebrew/english transliteration bible AND a greek and hebrew lexicon - hard copy or computer program - that will be enough to get you going - and you may never find a need to take a greek or hebrew course

These are called Interlinear Bibles. It is not a good way to learn a language because it doesn't teach grammar, the meaning of words, including the declension of nouns and conjugations of verbs.

Please, please don't learn Greek or Hebrew with an Interlinear Bible like Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament.

It would be better to go to a Greek Orthodox Church near you and learn Greek for free. Why don't you check out taking NT Greek at the University of Pretoria, South Africa, where I obtained my PhD in NT. It's highly accredited and is the training university for Dutch Reformed pastors. With the Rand so devalued, it's relatively cheap to study online. Check with the head of the dept, Prof Ernst van Eck, to see if Greek 110 and Hebrew 110 are available online.

i asked him how can these scholars purposely do that? - are they not afraid of God striking them for changing HIS words - as Revelations says there will be a curse on anyone who adds to or takes away any of God's words - what my scholar friend told me is

These verses from the Book of Revelation (not Revelations) in Rev 22:18-19 (ESV) state:

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

These verses do not apply to the entire Bible. They relate only to 'the prophecy of this book' of Revelation. How come? The Bible consists of 66 books written at different times under certain circumstances. The Revelation was a separate book written about AD 100 and didn't become part of the canon until ca. 397. So the 'plagues' do not apply to the whole of Scripture.

the translators make decisions on how to translate a phrase that isn't always about language - it is about politics theology - and also often as someone here i think said - one hebrew or greek word takes many words to properly translate and most translators take only one english word per one greek/hebrew word

Examples please! Otherwise they are your assertions.

what my scholar friend told me is - most scholars are not believers - they are scholars - and when they have discussions on how to best translate a word it is NOT about how to accurately repeat what God said in english - it is about what they think SHOULD have been said

That assessment is rather harsh, IMV. I'd rather have a good, secular scholar translating the Bible in a peer-reviewed atmosphere than getting the non-scholarly version of the New World Translation of the JWs (1950 NT and 1961 Bible). Try obtaining the translators' names and qualifications from JW.org and I wish you luck.

now to be honest there are only a few places where there is a serious mis-translation - there are many places where there are mild mistranslations though - and ALL of these serious and mild mistranslations cause the scriptures to be confusing sometimes - appear contradictory other times - and bland most times

Please, please give examples. I learn nothing from these generalised statements.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

IF your take on this is right we are all in great danger. ALL.

Could you please explain further?

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Could you please explain further?

I believe the writer is understanding scripture to say if anyone fails to keep his commandments they end up eternally in hell. Whether they have trusted Christ and placed faith in Him or not.
Obviously those have not trusted Him are so doomed.
I don't believe we can keep all His commandments even though we have the Holy Spirit. We are being sanctified. Which means we need sanctification. Which means we are not perfect and will and do sin, (disobey His commandments), but we hopefully progress and become more like Him. But we don't quite arrive there in this life.
Not that it is a proof of what I am saving, but I am 65 and been a believer since 1978 and have yet to meet or learn assuredly of a person who successfully obeys and keeps Hus commandments.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe the writer is understanding scripture to say if anyone fails to keep his commandments they end up eternally in hell. Whether they have trusted Christ and placed faith in Him or not.

BW,

In my understanding, John 5:24 (NIV) is one example of the Lord's view of who will be saved eternally. It states:

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

The Greek tenses used in this verse clarify who will be saved:

John 5:24 (ESV): ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears [present tense] my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life’.​

Therefore the verse means that those who hear Jesus’ word and continue to believe him continue to have eternal life. The verse does not teach that a person who once believed and no longer believes has eternal life. Eternal life is for those who continue to believe. That’s what the Greek teaches because the Greek present tense is not equivalent to the English present tense.

In English, the tenses primarily relate to the time of action (past, present & future). We add extra words to indicate kind of action. We could say, ‘I go’, but to indicate progressive action, we say, ‘I am going’.
In Greek (except for the future tense), the tenses refer primarily to the kind of action (continuous, completed with continuing results, and simple occurrence). Therefore, the present tense in Greek is not equivalent to the present tense in English. The Greek present tense refers to continual / continuous action. The time factor is of minor importance.

We can apply this understanding of the Greek present tense to John 5:24 (ESV): ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears [present tense] my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life’.

Therefore the verse means that those who hear Jesus’ word and continue to believe him continue to have eternal life. The verse does not teach that a person who once believed and no longer believes has eternal life. Eternal life is for those who continue to believe. (taken from my article, Consequences of screwing up meanings of New Testament Greek tenses.

Obviously those have not trusted Him are so doomed.
I don't believe we can keep all His commandments even though we have the Holy Spirit. We are being sanctified. Which means we need sanctification. Which means we are not perfect and will and do sin, (disobey His commandments), but we hopefully progress and become more like Him.

I agree and explain it in my article, Christians do not sin!

Oz

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Did Christ EVER tell you how to be saved --Nooooooooooooooo!. Did Christ EVER tell you that you can possibly spend eternity in the Highest Heaven --Noooooooooooooooo!. The 2 most important things and Christ had no answer for them. Actually, that's because His ministry had absolutely nothing to do with Gentiles. That's what He selected and trained Paul for. It's called delegation of authority. Paul did a great job handing those 2 questions. Jesus Christ is the foundation, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs?

Jesus taught and healed both Roman soldiers and Samaritans. I agree that Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles (but not that Paul's teachings only applied to Gentiles). I do not agree with the idea that Jesus came for only the Jews. He came for Israel first, and then the Gentiles. But He came for us all.

To clarify your position, are you saying you follow Paul but do not follow Jesus? Because that sounds like the stance your taking.

If that is the case, then I'd recommend rereading what Paul taught. What Paul taught reinforced what was already taught by Jesus. Including being saved. Reading and understanding both what Jesus taught, as well as Acts and the Letters are good for all of us. In Jesus there is no Greek or Jew. No separation of being saved by Jesus and being a Gentile, or being saved by Jesus and bring a Jew. We are all under the same grace and the same teachings.

 

[ezra]

LUKE 2: 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

[JLB]

Truthfrees,



These are called Interlinear Bibles. It is not a good way to learn a language because it doesn't teach grammar, the meaning of words, including the declension of nouns and conjugations of verbs.

Please, please don't learn Greek or Hebrew with an Interlinear Bible like

Therefore the verse means that those who hear Jesus’ word and continue to believe him continue to have eternal life. The verse does not teach that a person who once believed and no longer believes has eternal life.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

I agree that Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles

I believe the writer is understanding scripture to say if anyone fails to keep his commandments they end up eternally in hell. Whether they have trusted Christ and placed faith in Him or not.
Obviously those have not trusted Him are so doomed.
I don't believe we can keep all His commandments even though we have the Holy Spirit. We are being sanctified. Which means we need sanctification. Which means we are not perfect and will and do sin, (disobey His commandments), but we hopefully progress and become more like Him. But we don't quite arrive there in this life.
Not that it is a proof of what I am saving, but I am 65 and been a believer since 1978 and have yet to meet or learn assuredly of a person who successfully obeys and keeps Hus commandments.

If we sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


If we have a weakness in a certain area of our life we can repent and ask Him to deliver us from that iniquity, so that we become strong in that area.


Being filled with His Spirit is the key to walking according to His Spirit.



Each of us must make the choice to invest our time and effort towards the things of the Spirit. The things the Holy Spirit desires for us to do.

Prayer, reading the Word, private worship, fasting, repentance...

Sowing to the Spirit, investing our time in these things will produce a righteous thought life, which in turn will produce speaking righteous words, that leads us to righteous actions of love.

The more we do these things the more we suppress the desires of the flesh, to gratify its lustful cravings of sin.


For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:8-10



JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree and explain it in my article, Christians do not sin!

So in the context of this thread, we see that Christians who take heed to false doctrine, can be led into departing from the faith.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees,
These are called Interlinear Bibles. It is not a good way to learn a language because it doesn't teach grammar, the meaning of words, including the declension of nouns and conjugations of verbs.

Please, please don't learn Greek or Hebrew with an Interlinear Bible like Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament.

It would be better to go to a Greek Orthodox Church near you and learn Greek for free. Why don't you check out taking NT Greek at the University of Pretoria, South Africa, where I obtained my PhD in NT. It's highly accredited and is the training university for Dutch Reformed pastors. With the Rand so devalued, it's relatively cheap to study online. Check with the head of the dept, Prof Ernst van Eck, to see if Greek 110 and Hebrew 110 are available online.

These verses from the Book of Revelation (not Revelations) in Rev 22:18-19 (ESV) state:

These verses do not apply to the entire Bible. They relate only to 'the prophecy of this book' of Revelation. How come? The Bible consists of 66 books written at different times under certain circumstances. The Revelation was a separate book written about AD 100 and didn't become part of the canon until ca. 397. So the 'plagues' do not apply to the whole of Scripture.

Examples please! Otherwise they are your assertions.

That assessment is rather harsh, IMV. I'd rather have a good, secular scholar translating the Bible in a peer-reviewed atmosphere than getting the non-scholarly version of the New World Translation of the JWs (1950 NT and 1961 Bible). Try obtaining the translators' names and qualifications from JW.org and I wish you luck.

Please, please give examples. I learn nothing from these generalised statements.

Oz

thank you for your awesome reply

i agree with some of your statements said and disagree with some

thank you for all the excellent suggestions and links

i meant transliteration because transliteration is for people that can't read the greek or hebrew alphabet -

i do agree with you saying interlinear - but if an interlinear does not include transliteration a beginner will be totally lost

i disagree that a person CAN'T / shouldn't learn greek/hebrew from a transliterated interlinear - it is a beautiful way to begin learning - and it is a wonderful chance to find out for free if a person is interested enough in learning the biblical language - and if so paying money for courses

i understand that accredited courses are optimal - but for beginners it is totally unnecessary -

if a person is learning biblical greek / hebrew ONLY to receive exciting living revelation from the bible a transliteration is PERFECT / fun / extremely accessible / easiest

if a person wants to become a greek/hebrew scholar it is woefully insufficient

so from your point of view you are correct

from my pov i am correct

it all depends on why a person wants to read the bible in the original language -

to teach others as a scholar? -

or to learn and grow in the Lord and SHARE with others the exciting treasures the original biblical languages contain?

PS mounce is greek only - i recommend a greek hebrew transliteration - unless a person only wants to study the nt - then i suppose mounce would do - i don't know - i prefer the whole bible to just the nt

PS2. i respect you my friend - if we actually get to where we translate a greek portion of the nt i would respect what you say -

i'm not trying to debate you - i'm just trying to share my joy for greek and hebrew over english - and i have been blessed with using a transliteration and a lexicon - it's fun easy doable for non-scholars -

can we non-scholars create a new translation? - no - but that is not our goal -

can we debate scholars? - no - but that is not our goal -

we just want to soak in God's words in the best possible way - a transliteration imo is the best possible way for a non-scholar

 

[WIP]

Some believe in eternal security, or OSAS.
Some believe in conditional security or OSNAS.

Can believing in incorrect doctrine cause one to lose their salvation?
Please think about this before answer a knee jerk NO....since we many times say that doctrine does not save us.
I've made this statement myself.

But...could a doctrine CAUSE us, in some way, to endanger our soul?
Hyper grace would be another concept....

What is your opinion?

Perhaps if one believes in man's doctrine vs God's.

 

[WIP]

Your point about 1Cor 15:1-4 is totally pointless

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was the 100% Israel Gospel of the Kingdom, which has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation and nothing at all to do with any Gentile living today. Christ was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Mt 15:24. PERIOD!!! Christ selected Paul to be the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles. For Gentiles, Paul is the very LAST WORD above everybody, including Christ, who was solely a minister to Israel. If His teaching was also to the Gentiles, Paul would not be needed. Since Paul was trained by Christ in the many special revelations he received, Paul's words are Christ's Words. Every Word Paul wrote was God-breathed by Christ. Nothing Christ EVER said will get you saved. Paul is the only teacher, preacher, and apostle we Gentiles have. PERIOD!

I beg to differ. Peter clearly witnessed to gentiles. See Acts 10 and 15:9.

 

[chessman]

The Bible is its own best interpreter, in that the scriptures themselves define for us in some cases what a word or phrase means, either by context or by direct definition.

Indeed.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

If you continue Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired sentence, rather than chopping his (His) sentence off at the comma, this Scripture defines exactly what it means in this context/sentence to “depart from the faith”:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth. Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

1 Timothy 4:1-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-5&version=DLNT

Doctrines that forbid:
1. Marriages
2. Eating certain foods
are (according to Paul and the Spirit here) a departure from the true faith. Because the truth is; everything (and I mean everything) created by God and sanctified by the Word of God and prayer will not be rejected.

While pointing-out these things to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, while being nourished in the words of the faith and the good teaching which you have closely-followed. But be declining the profane and old-womanish myths. But be training yourself for godliness.​

1 Timothy 4:6-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:6-7&version=DLNT

And pointing out this truth IS being a good servant of Christ Jesus. Oh, and what/who is also sanctified by the Word of God and prayer??? All believers:

They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world— set them apart in the truth. Your word is truth. Just as You sent Me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world. And I am setting apart Myself for them, in order that they may also be set apart in truth. “And I am not praying for these ones only, but also for the ones believing in Me through their word, that they may all be one — just as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You, that they also may be in Us— in order that the world may be believing that You sent Me forth. And I have given them the glory which You have given to Me in order that they may be one just as We are one, I in them and You in Me; in order that they may be perfected into one— in order that the world may be knowing that You sent Me forth, and loved them just as You loved Me. “Father, as to what You have given to Me, I desire that those ones also may be with Me where I am, in order that they may be seeing My glory which You have given to Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.​

John 17:16-24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:16-24&version=DLNT

Any doctrine which attempts to separate some of the believers in Christ Jesus (by not including “all” of them) Jesus prayed far is just false, demonically inspired and hypocritical, in fact.