Believing Must Be The First Step, Right?

[Free]

No, Peter Commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized to complete the Foundational work of Salvation, not because they were already saved, as you say.

Baptism always follows salvation, not as a means to completing or as a part of salvation.

 

[Fish153]

No, Peter Commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized to complete the Foundational work of Salvation, not because they were already saved, as you say.

Read the chapter. Cornelius and his house RECEIVE the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are water baptized. You cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit unless you are already saved.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I insisted nothing. Please stop reading into what I wrote. This is what your claim was: "The disciples were baptized in water by John the Baptist, but not in spirit until the Pentecost."

Now you're changing that to say "John the Baptist's disciples," specifically one of them (Andrew, not Simon Peter) and going on about John baptizing his own disciples. How does that fit with your claim above, which implies all of Jesus's disciples were baptized by John and then by the Spirit at Pentecost?

Andrew and Peter were John's disciple first before Jesus's. I changed nothing. And I never said "ALL of Jesus's disciples", you're the one who's reading into what I wrote. John the Baptist stated that He baptized with water while Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit, you go decide whether that applied to the disciples or not.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Belief to get is son delivered.

Not believing for salvation.

If you believe in salvation, you believe in God's saving power, such as the miraculous healing of his son, demonstrated in this case.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Read the chapter. Cornelius and his house RECEIVE the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are water baptized. You cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit unless you are already saved.

So, why did Peter command them to be Baptized?

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Baptism always follows salvation, not as a means to completing or as a part of salvation.

Not true, read Acts 19:5-6

 

[Hopeful 2]

Absolutely. But it is important when reading James to understand what he is teaching. Many get it backwards and believe James is teaching that good works = salvation. Or believing, plus good works = salvation. That is the way the natural man thinks. The natural man sees Heaven being entered by being either on the good or bad side of a scale. If you have more good works you go to Heaven. That is not what the Bible teaches.

James is actually teaching that if you SAY you are saved then you SHOULD be showing forth fruits of righteousness and goodness. Good fruits and righteousness are the RESULT of ALREADY BEING SAVED. Don't say you are saved if you are showing forth bad fruit. But some pervert James' teaching and say good works = salvation. No---good works are the RESULT of salvation. This is what James is teaching. It is the teaching of the Spirit.

I can understand their misunderstandings, but also don't believe anyone can say they are saved until the actual saving takes place...on the day of judgement.
James' "works" are post-conversion, and proof of that conversion/submission to God.
The "works" Paul wrote against were the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, etc.
They won't, and never did, save anyone.

At the heart of the anti-works model, is that if someone must obey God to get to heaven, no matter what they do, it does not agree with their understanding of scripture.
Resisting temptation to be found righteous on the day of judgement, is anathema to them.
The whole anti-works doctrine is just another accommodation for sin.

 

[onlysaved]

Written pertaining to those who walk in darkness.
They are the ones who can't say they have no sin.

Without a basis for your view, it becomes just your opinion.

That is incorrect John uses the self inclusive pronoun "We"
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
Anyone who believes they are without sin deceives themselves

Again this is the first letter of John.. written to believers...

My view is based on the whole council of God, not cherry picked passages over spiritualized and taken out of context.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please read Acts 10 where Cornelius and the people with him receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptized.

Yes, and it occurred in order to impress upon Peter and his six cohorts that God had accepted the Gentiles too.
It is the only instance in the bible of the Holy Ghost being given before water baptism in Jesus V+Name for the remission of past sins.

How did they receive the Spirit unless they were saved?

They won't be saved until the day of judgement.
A better word would be 'submissive to God'.

They receive the Spirit BECAUSE THEY ARE SAVED, then they go to be baptized as a testimony to that salvation.

Is that what is written ?
Acts 10:47..."Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
There is no mention of what you opine.
Peter understood that baptism was for the remission of past sins, (Acts 2:38), and that is why they were baptized.

Read the chapter yourself. Baptism did not SAVE them. Baptism was the RESULT of already being saved. I have nothing against baptism---it is commanded. But so is Communion. Communion doesn't save you. Communion is a RESULT of knowing one is saved. You take the bread and wine to remember him. Baptism does not save you. It is the next step AFTER you are saved.

Baptism doesn't save you.
But in tandem with repentance from sin and a life in submission to God until the end, will save you on the day of judgement.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is incorrect John uses the self inclusive pronoun "We"
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
Anyone who believes they are without sin deceives themselves

Again this is the first letter of John.. written to believers...

My view is based on the whole council of God, not cherry picked passages over spiritualized and taken out of context.

If the "we" are walking in darkness, verses 6, 8, and 10 apply to "us".
However, if the "we" are walking in light, verses 5, 7, and 9 apply to "us".
The verses don't cross over.
John was juxtaposing a walk in the light-God against a walk in darkness-sin.
They are incongruant.

You'll notice Paul uses the same juxtapositioning in Romans 8, where he contrasts walking in the Spirit against walking in the flesh.

 

[onlysaved]

If the "we" are walking in darkness, verses 6, 8, and 10 apply to "us".
However, if the "we" are walking in light, verses 5, 7, and 9 apply to "us".
The verses don't cross over.
John was juxtaposing a walk in the light-God against a walk in darkness-sin.
They are incongruant.

You'll notice Paul uses the same juxtapositioning in Romans 8, where he contrasts walking in the Spirit against walking in the flesh.

Incongruent yes. Impossible no.

King David was saved... he sinned. He did things we'd say a Christian could never do and claim to be a Christian. So did Moses. So did Jacob.

All people sin... I sin. You sin.. that was Jesus's main preaching at the semon on the mountain
Here is a paraphrase..

No adultery huh? Well even of you look at a woman sexually you're an adulterer.

So you think you're a good guy cause you never killed anyone? Well if you called someone a fool. You're just like a murderer..
And so on.

Works, including baptism are evidence of obedience out of thankfulness for salvation. They are not a requirement for salvation.

Abraham believed God and ot was credited to him as righteousness.

Heaven is full of people who were never baptized. Lots of baptized people will be in Hell. People who threw out demons in Jesus's name will be in Hell.

The biggest theme that appears throughout the Bible from beginning to end is that people have relationships with God by having faith in God.

It could not have been made clearer.

" it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God and not the result of works so that no one may boast"

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved for it is with your heart that you believe and are Justified and by your mouth you confess and are saved."

There is to my recollection no evidence The apostles were ever baptized..
Baptism is a public confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the one who takes away our sins.
It is not a spiritual function that that does anything to you. It's a symbol of repentance and obedience. That's why it plays such a minor role in the bible.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Incongruent yes. Impossible no.

Better rethink that.
The light of 1 John 1 is God, in whom is no darkness.
Darkness is sin, as Pro 4:19 makes clear..."the way of the wicked".
You are opining that we can walk in sin and in God at the same time.
I cannot agree.

King David was saved... he sinned. He did things we'd say a Christian could never do and claim to be a Christian. So did Moses. So did Jacob.

They were all man who had no choice but to walk in the flesh.
But we of the NT, can crucify that flesh and walk in the Spirit.
They did not have that option, until Jesus' resurrection.

All people sin... I sin. You sin..

No, they don't.
I don't sin, as my repentance from sin was a real turn.

that was Jesus's main preaching at the semon on the mountain
Here is a paraphrase..

Again, Jesus is speaking to men in the flesh.

No adultery huh? Well even of you look at a woman sexually you're an adulterer.

That's right, so don't do it.

So you think you're a good guy cause you never killed anyone? Well if you called someone a fool. You're just like a murderer..
And so on.

That's right, so don't do it.

Works, including baptism are evidence of obedience out of thankfulness for salvation. They are not a requirement for salvation.

The purpose of the devils who brought forth that doctrine was to nullify repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
By outlawing both, it leaves every man still in the flesh, and their past sins, and powerless against temptation.

Abraham believed God and ot was credited to him as righteousness.

As righteous as a man in the flesh could be.

Heaven is full of people who were never baptized.

OT folks from before the Law, and those after the Law who kept up in their days of atonement...only.

Lots of baptized people will be in Hell.

Agreed, as without a real repentance from sin, they were never changed.

People who threw out demons in Jesus's name will be in Hell.

Yes.

The biggest theme that appears throughout the Bible from beginning to end is that people have relationships with God by having faith in God.

The fine point of that is,,,"IN GOD".
We are water baptized INTO Christ. (Rom 6:3)
Without being IN HIM, you are using your own power to obey, and that just isn't possible.

It could not have been made clearer.
" it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God and not the result of works so that no one may boast"

Not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against...for sure.

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved for it is with your heart that you believe and are Justified and by your mouth you confess and are saved."

You will be saved if your repentance from sin was real, on the day of judgement.

There is to my recollection no evidence The apostles were ever baptized..

No, there isn't.
But there is evidence that Jesus was baptized.
And although that was still the OT's baptism unto repentance, don't you think His apostles would have gone through the same rite ?

Baptism is a public confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the one who takes away our sins.

That may be one of the things that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is.
But it is also the way to get into Christ, (Rom 6:3), and to destroy the old man of the flesh, (Rom 6:6), and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
It is also the means of our circumcision done without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. (Col 2:11)

It is not a spiritual function that that does anything to you. It's a symbol of repentance and obedience. That's why it plays such a minor role in the bible.

I disagree.
Have you ever considered walking in the Spirit/light/without sin ?

 

[onlysaved]

Better rethink that.
The light of 1 John 1 is God, in whom is no darkness.
Darkness is sin, as Pro 4:19 makes clear..."the way of the wicked".
You are opining that we can walk in sin and in God at the same time.
I cannot agree.

They were all man who had no choice but to walk in the flesh.
But we of the NT, can crucify that flesh and walk in the Spirit.
They did not have that option, until Jesus' resurrection.

No, they don't.
I don't sin, as my repentance from sin was a real turn.

Again, Jesus is speaking to men in the flesh.

That's right, so don't do it.

That's right, so don't do it.

The purpose of the devils who brought forth that doctrine was to nullify repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
By outlawing both, it leaves every man still in the flesh, and their past sins, and powerless against temptation.

As righteous as a man in the flesh could be.

OT folks from before the Law, and those after the Law who kept up in their days of atonement...only.

Agreed, as without a real repentance from sin, they were never changed.

Yes.

The fine point of that is,,,"IN GOD".
We are water baptized INTO Christ. (Rom 6:3)
Without being IN HIM, you are using your own power to obey, and that just isn't possible.

Not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against...for sure.

You will be saved if your repentance from sin was real, on the day of judgement.

No, there isn't.
But there is evidence that Jesus was baptized.
And although that was still the OT's baptism unto repentance, don't you think His apostles would have gone through the same rite ?

That may be one of the things that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is.
But it is also the way to get into Christ, (Rom 6:3), and to destroy the old man of the flesh, (Rom 6:6), and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
It is also the means of our circumcision done without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. (Col 2:11)

I disagree.
Have you ever considered walking in the Spirit/light/without sin ?

Walking in darkness is to live in away you know is opposed to the light. It does not mean never sinning.
It means a gay man for example chooses not to have sex with other men but may perform other sins.

How about the Corinthian who Paul told the church to throw out of the congregation.. He was saved. Thrown out of the congregation. Then was restored to the congregation because he repented.
Repentance is turning away from sin as your heart goes through sanctification. Repentance isn't saying I'll never sin again.

If the only people who are saved are those who never sin again after coming to faith in Christ then Heaven will be empty...

"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it"
Coming to faith in Christ is the beginning of your sanctification.
It is the beginning and the end of your salvation.
The first step in repentance is repenting of disbelief in Christ at which point salvation takes place as does the process of sanctification or becoming more Christ like which is to say the process of dropping sinful behavior AND attitudes and gaining Christ like behaviors and attitudes.
It is a process not one time thing.
That's why the Apostle Paul bemoamed about sin in his own life.

I think the most important thing to see here is that for the believer sin is dealt with once and for all by Christ's death and resurrection.. God looks at us and sees His Sons perfection. The penalty of sin is gone, done away with. What's left is sanctification which is what we've already discovered is God's work being accomplished in us.
Living in the light, living in the spirit, sanctification, it goes by many names is God's work in us.

Now, I do not make accommodation for sin. I only acknowledge that even the best of Christians will commit sins. However as we find sin in our lives we deal with them out of thankful obedience to God. Even that however is God's work in us.
That's how desperately wicked our hearts are.

Here is reality. Humans even Christians love sin.. when I pray for forgiveness I usually start off praying in ignorance saying "God, i want nothing to do with xxxxxxxxx. Then I realize I am lying to God. The fact is that I want xxxxxxx. That's why it's a temptation for me. Then I pray" God i am so wicked, my heart seeks wickedness all the time, just like your word says. Please forgive me and help me in my temptation and use the way of escape you promise in your word to provide"

"Apart from me you can do nothing"

Thank God, as Paul says "He saves us from this body of death"
I long to be raised imperishable.

 

[JLB]

The devils believe, but won't be saved.
Salvation is made available to those who believe, but the believer must manifest their belief/faith with actions.

Exactly. That's why I say believe and therefore obey.

Nevertheless, Believe is the condition for salvation.

What biblical believing fully entails is another subject.

 

[onlysaved]

Faith is an action.. it is THE action.
Deeds come as a result of faith..
Everything else is salvation by works and as soon as you head down that road the question is always "have is done enough works"

 

[Free]

If one wants forgiveness, baptism for the remission of past sins is necessary for that forgiveness.

No, it isn't. Baptism always follows salvation, as symbol or picture of what has already been accomplished by the Spirit in the heart. Water is physical and outward and simply cannot have any effect on sin.

The only way to rid one of past sins is by baptism in Christ's name. (Acts 2:38)

No, it is by believing in Jesus and his death and resurrection.

Nope, that would be the OT's approach.
Past sins are washed away by our "immersion" into Christ and His death.
It is His blood that cleanses one of past sins.

No, that is the OT approach (Num. 8:7; Ps. 51:7; Isa. 1:16; John 1:25-28, 31-33; Acts 19:3-4). The NT approach is belief and repentance are what saves and baptism follows as a sign of the new covenant and public profession of being a follower of Christ.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (ESV)

Baptism facilitates our immersion into Christ's death.
That is where His shed blood washes us.

Washing away sins is the work of the Holy Spirit, by applying Jesus's blood to us at the moment of salvation.

If that were true, then you would be able to show at least one scripture showing a man being baptized to show the crowd of one's conversion.

People were saved, then they were baptized. That is what all those verses show.

You emboldened the wrong part of the verse.
The washing of regeneration, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, allows our participation in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
Our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life is the end result of baptism. (Rom 6:4)

You claim I "emboldened the wrong part of the verse," but then go on to ignore that part altogether. That is the reason I emboldened it, because you ignored it the first time. It is clearly the work of the Holy Spirit to wash away our sins. That is the actual work that is symbolized or pictured by water baptism.

The baptism and the Holy Ghost are one. (1 John 5:8)..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.'

It clearly says they "agree in one," not that "they are one."

Again you emboldened the wrong part of the verse...in the context of washing away past sins and also rebirth.

No, it was the right part because you ignored that part the first time as well. No righteous works of any sort justify us. Ever.

I like that..."Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
It requires both a washing by the blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.
It would be ineffective without both.

I will maintain that obedience to God is necessary for salvation.

You really need to qualify what you mean by "salvation." As I pointed out previously, this continues to be a serious issue on the forums and more specifically for a couple of you in this discussion. So far I have yet to receive an answer, but it is the reason your theology is off in a couple of things here.

He commands repentance from sin and baptism in His name for the remission of past sins...do these two things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Act 2:38)

Justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Adding any works to that is heresy, being anti-gospel and anti-Christ.

The works of the Law that Paul wrote against though, will not save.

He wrote that no works, period, will save (justify), whether works of the law or otherwise. Anyone who says differently Paul says is to be considered accursed.

They all occur at once

No, they don't. That's all I needed to know. It explains your errors here, in part, and your heresy. It shows a serious lack of study about something so central in Scripture.

No man will be saved without remission of past sins, and baptism in Jesus' name is how that baptism is to be done.

Again, water baptism saves no one. We do it because Jesus commanded it be done. I will admit that there might be something more to it than merely picturing what was done on the inside by the work of the Holy Spirit, but whatever that something may be, it isn't salvific.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Walking in darkness is to live in away you know is opposed to the light.

Right, opposed to the way God wants us to live.

It does not mean never sinning.

Better reread your own definition above.
Isn't God opposed to sinning ?

It means a gay man for example chooses not to have sex with other men but may perform other sins.

Sin is darkness, (Pro 4:19)

How about the Corinthian who Paul told the church to throw out of the congregation.. He was saved.

No, he wasn't saved...as the day of judgement won't come until the last day.
His sin showed he had neither repented of sin or been reborn of God's seed.
He wasn't even converted !

Thrown out of the congregation. Then was restored to the congregation because he repented.

I hope that repentance was real.

Repentance is turning away from sin as your heart goes through sanctification. Repentance isn't saying I'll never sin again.

Your definition of repentance is just another accommodation for continued sins.
Sanctification happens when the sanctifying blood of Christ washes your vessel...at water baptism into Christ and into His death.

If the only people who are saved are those who never sin again after coming to faith in Christ then Heaven will be empty...

Just as Jesus said, "few will be chosen".

"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it"
Coming to faith in Christ is the beginning of your sanctification.
It is the beginning and the end of your salvation.
The first step in repentance is repenting of disbelief in Christ at which point salvation takes place as does the process of sanctification or becoming more Christ like which is to say the process of dropping sinful behavior AND attitudes and gaining Christ like behaviors and attitudes.
It is a process not one time thing.
That's why the Apostle Paul bemoamed about sin in his own life.

I think the most important thing to see here is that for the believer sin is dealt with once and for all by Christ's death and resurrection.. God looks at us and sees His Sons perfection. The penalty of sin is gone, done away with. What's left is sanctification which is what we've already discovered is God's work being accomplished in us.
Living in the light, living in the spirit, sanctification, it goes by many names is God's work in us.

Now, I do not make accommodation for sin. I only acknowledge that even the best of Christians will commit sins. However as we find sin in our lives we deal with them out of thankful obedience to God. Even that however is God's work in us.
That's how desperately wicked our hearts are.

Here is reality. Humans even Christians love sin.. when I pray for forgiveness I usually start off praying in ignorance saying "God, i want nothing to do with xxxxxxxxx. Then I realize I am lying to God. The fact is that I want xxxxxxx. That's why it's a temptation for me. Then I pray" God i am so wicked, my heart seeks wickedness all the time, just like your word says. Please forgive me and help me in my temptation and use the way of escape you promise in your word to provide"

"Apart from me you can do nothing"

Thank God, as Paul says "He saves us from this body of death"
I long to be raised imperishable.

Your process is just another false doctrine that accommodates more sin.
As God heareth not sinners, (John 9:31), a real, true turn from sin is necessary before anything else can happen.

 

[Free]

Andrew and Peter were John's disciple first before Jesus's.

Not quote; you need to read a bit more closely:

Joh 1:35 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples,
Joh 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!”
Joh 1:37 The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus.
Joh 1:38 Jesus turned and saw them following and said to them, “What are you seeking?” And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?”
Joh 1:39 He said to them, “Come and you will see.” So they came and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day, for it was about the tenth hour.
Joh 1:40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
Joh 1:41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). (ESV)

Clearly, Simon wasn't one of the two disciples of John.

I changed nothing.

You first stated: "The disciples were baptized in water by John the Baptist, but not in spirit until the Pentecost," without saying just who those disciples were. That implies Jesus's disciples. At least you sort of clarified, although then you implied that John baptized all of Jesus's disciples.

And I never said "ALL of Jesus's disciples", you're the one who's reading into what I wrote.

I know you didn't, which is why I said your statement implies such: "The disciples were baptized in water by John the Baptist, but not in spirit until the Pentecost."

Without any qualification whatsoever and simply saying "the disciples," you're implying that those baptized by John were all the same that were baptized in the Spirit at Pentecost.

John the Baptist stated that He baptized with water while Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit, you go decide whether that applied to the disciples or not.

The point is, you're reading into the text. Andrew and one other unknown disciple were baptized by John, being his disciples first. Scripture is silent on the rest of Jesus's disciples.

 

[Free]

Not true, read Acts 19:5-6

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Act 19:3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.”
Act 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. (ESV)

Don't forget about verse 4, in which Paul clearly states that they must believe in Jesus. The implication is that they did, that Jesus became the object of their faith as John said he should, and then were baptized.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, it isn't. Baptism always follows salvation, as symbol or picture of what has already been accomplished by the Spirit in the heart. Water is physical and outward and simply cannot have any effect on sin.


No, it is by believing in Jesus and his death and resurrection.


No, that is the OT approach (Num. 8:7; Ps. 51:7; Isa. 1:16; John 1:25-28, 31-33; Acts 19:3-4). The NT approach is belief and repentance are what saves and baptism follows as a sign of the new covenant and public profession of being a follower of Christ.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (ESV)


Washing away sins is the work of the Holy Spirit, by applying Jesus's blood to us at the moment of salvation.


People were saved, then they were baptized. That is what all those verses show.


You claim I "emboldened the wrong part of the verse," but then go on to ignore that part altogether. That is the reason I emboldened it, because you ignored it the first time. It is clearly the work of the Holy Spirit to wash away our sins. That is the actual work that is symbolized or pictured by water baptism.


It clearly says they "agree in one," not that "they are one."


No, it was the right part because you ignored that part the first time as well. No righteous works of any sort justify us. Ever.


You really need to qualify what you mean by "salvation."

Salvation: the state of one who is saved.
As the proof of that won't occur till man is raised from the dead, either to eternal life or eternal damnation, it is superfluous to claim salvation until that happens.

As I pointed out previously, this continues to be a serious issue on the forums and more specifically for a couple of you in this discussion. So far I have yet to receive an answer, but it is the reason your theology is off in a couple of things here.


Justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Adding any works to that is heresy, being anti-gospel and anti-Christ.


He wrote that no works, period, will save (justify), whether works of the law or otherwise. Anyone who says differently Paul says is to be considered accursed.


No, they don't. That's all I needed to know. It explains your errors here, in part, and your heresy. It shows a serious lack of study about something so central in Scripture.


Again, water baptism saves no one. We do it because Jesus commanded it be done. I will admit that there might be something more to it than merely picturing what was done on the inside by the work of the Holy Spirit, but whatever that something may be, it isn't salvific.