Believing Must Be The First Step, Right?

[Anchor Of Hope]

Of course not.

But believing is how we are born again… it’s how salvation begins.

After that we must learn to walk according to the Spirit rather than practicing the works of the flesh and continue in our faith steadfast to the end.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Ok, here we go again. You quoted 1 Peter 1:9—so, who was Peter writing to? Answer: the Church. The Church had already obeyed the foundational requirements set forth by Peter and the rest of the Apostles in Acts 2:38.

You need to stop trying to create doctrines that are half-truths. Faith is required. Repentance is required. Water Baptism in Jesus Name is required. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required just like they received in Acts 2:1-4. Why? Because this is the foundation upon which the Church must be built.

After the foundation of Acts 2:38 is laid, we then begin to build our spiritual house. In this house are rooms called Holiness, Righteousness, and Godliness. But we cannot build our spiritual house until we have laid the foundation of Acts 2:38. If we try to build our Spiritual House just on Faith alone, it is the same as building on the sand, as the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Amen, though I would have added "for our sins" to number 1.

Nice similes, but not a gospel

Nice similes, but not a gospel --- I didn't say the latter part was Gospel, I said it is the Doctrine of the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

Ok, here we go again. You quoted 1 Peter 1:9—so, who was Peter writing to? Answer: the Church. The Church had already obeyed the foundational requirements set forth by Peter and the rest of the Apostles in Acts 2:38.

You need to stop trying to create doctrines that are half-truths. Faith is required. Repentance is required. Water Baptism in Jesus Name is required. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required just like they received in Acts 2:1-4. Why? Because this is the foundation upon which the Church must be built.

After the foundation of Acts 2:38 is laid, we then begin to build our spiritual house. In this house are rooms called Holiness, Righteousness, and Godliness. But we cannot build our spiritual house until we have laid the foundation of Acts 2:38. If we try to build our Spiritual House just on Faith alone, it is the same as building on the sand, as the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Believing is how is a person is born again. This is where salvation begins.

I don't believe in the "doctrine" of faith alone.

Biblical believing involves obedience. Obedience to the Gospel command repent is necessary to be saved.

The way a person believes and therefore obeys the Gospel command repent, is to confess Jesus as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

People who are baptized in water are already saved, born again, because the have already believed and are born again.

We don't get water baptized to become born again, we are baptized because we are born again, and identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Likewise, people who are baptized with the Holy Spirit are already born again; are already a new wineskin that is capable of being filled with new wine.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Believing is how is a person is born again. This is where salvation begins.

I don't believe in the "doctrine" of faith alone.

Biblical believing involves obedience. Obedience to the Gospel command repent is necessary to be saved.

The way a person believes and therefore obeys the Gospel command repent, is to confess Jesus as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

People who are baptized in water are already saved, born again, because the have already believed and are born again.

We don't get water baptized to become born again, we are baptized because we are born again, and identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Likewise, people who are baptized with the Holy Spirit are already born again; are already a new wineskin that is capable of being filled with new wine.

Maybe you need to read Mark 16:16 -- He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Maybe you need to read Mark 16:16 -- He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

How will you discard this scripture?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Which disciples and where is that mentioned?

Jn. 1:35-42, Andrew and Simon Peter, John the Baptist's disciples followed Jesus. If you insist that John baptized hordes of people while his own disciples were not baptized just for the sake of the argument, well, God bless.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Matthew 28:19 is not being Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. Any one baptized repeating Matthew 28:19 are baptized in Descriptive Titles, not in the Name, common sense can understand this.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus says believing is the criteria to be born again.

Words of Christ in red -

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:7-15


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Then why the father of a poor man who was infested with an evil spirit pleaded to Jesus to "help his unbelief"? "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!" (Mk. 9:24)

 

[Free]

Jn. 1:35-42, Andrew and Simon Peter, John the Baptist's disciples followed Jesus. If you insist that John baptized hordes of people while his own disciples were not baptized just for the sake of the argument, well, God bless.

I insisted nothing. Please stop reading into what I wrote. This is what your claim was: "The disciples were baptized in water by John the Baptist, but not in spirit until the Pentecost."

Now you're changing that to say "John the Baptist's disciples," specifically one of them (Andrew, not Simon Peter) and going on about John baptizing his own disciples. How does that fit with your claim above, which implies all of Jesus's disciples were baptized by John and then by the Spirit at Pentecost?

 

[Free]

Yes.

Let me put it differently: Do you think forgiveness is what leads directly to sins being washed away?

I agree, but those are the ones pertinent to the discussion.

So you claim.

No, it doesn't.
Are you admitting you don't understand the verses ?

Not at all. I think I understand it well enough.

I disagree, as no sins will be entering into heaven, so must not be o=present on the day of Christ's return.

Of course no sins will be entering heaven, but that has nothing to do with water baptism.

Baptism doesn't cleanse the vessel of the repentant from dirt.
It washes away past sins, if done in the name of Jesus Christ.

Nope, as Peter is differentiating between OT washings of dirt only, with NT baptism in Christ's name that remits past sins.

How? Do you think sins, which are not physical, just sit on the surface of the skin and so can be washed away by water?

Just as the ark saved in the OT, baptism saves in the NT.

Not at all. Again, Peter makes the clear argument that it is Jesus's death and resurrection that save, not water baptism. Note that sins are not physical and do not just sit on the surface of the skin so that they can be washed away by water. Removal of sin is a spiritual act, by the Holy Spirit, based on the death and resurrection of Jesus, which is what saves.

Got at least one instance from Acts showing baptism being given for show ?
I'll just call that view unbiblical until, you can provide one.

It's based on what the NT teaches on baptism.

Saved, by a washing !
Reiterating Peter's POV.

No, at least not according to what you think Peter's POV is. You're completely ignoring what text plainly states:

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

The "washing of regeneration and renewal" is an act of the Holy Spirit, not water; water symbolizes what has been done by the Spirit.

Sorry you understand it so very differently than I.
BTW, the only "works" written of that will not save, were ''of the Law.''
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, priesthoods, etc.
By diminishing/outlawing baptism, you officially countermand Jesus' commandments to the apostles before being raised to heaven. (Matt 28:19)
And Peter's commands from Acts 2:38.

Don't be sorry; I have the correct understanding, or at least more correct. You're clearly, again, ignoring the plain meaning of the text:

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Perhaps you would prefer the KJV:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This is any and all righteous works, period. There are absolutely no works which save (justify) us. This is supported by "but according to his mercy he saved us." There is simply no way around it--no works save us; they are completely ruled out. That is the consistent message throughout the NT. To teach otherwise means such a person is to be considered accursed. To persist in believing and teaching that error puts one outside the gospel and outside of Christ.

But, this comes down a serious problem that seems to persist on these forums--a near complete lack of understanding of how the NT talks about salvation as a past event (justification and sanctification), an ongoing reality (sanctification), and a future fulfillment (glorification). That is contributing to much confusion and differences in understanding in this thread.

Water baptism saves no one. And to say that I am "diminishing" or even "outlawing" baptism and countermanding "Jesus' commandments" means you haven't understood me very well at all.

 

[JLB]

Maybe you need to read Mark 16:16 -- He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Do you understand that there are three distinct baptisms, with three distinct baptizers?

 

[JLB]

Then why the father of a poor man who was infested with an evil spirit pleaded to Jesus to "help his unbelief"? "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!" (Mk. 9:24)

Belief to get is son delivered.

Not believing for salvation.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Do you understand that there are three distinct baptisms, with three distinct baptizers?

I have no idea, what you are asking

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nice similes, but not a gospel --- I didn't say the latter part was Gospel, I said it is the Doctrine of the Gospel.

Your last line said it was a gospel.
The phrase "Doctrine of the Gospel" seems to just be man's thoughts about the gospel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Let me put it differently: Do you think forgiveness is what leads directly to sins being washed away?

If one wants forgiveness, baptism for the remission of past sins is necessary for that forgiveness.

Of course no sins will be entering heaven, but that has nothing to do with water baptism.

The only way to rid one of past sins is by baptism in Christ's name. (Acts 2:38)

How? Do you think sins, which are not physical, just sit on the surface of the skin and so can be washed away by water?

Nope, that would be the OT's approach.
Past sins are washed away by our "immersion" into Christ and His death.
It is His blood that cleanses one of past sins.

Not at all. Again, Peter makes the clear argument that it is Jesus's death and resurrection that save, not water baptism. Note that sins are not physical and do not just sit on the surface of the skin so that they can be washed away by water. Removal of sin is a spiritual act, by the Holy Spirit, based on the death and resurrection of Jesus, which is what saves.

Baptism facilitates our immersion into Christ's death.
That is where His shed blood washes us.

It's based on what the NT teaches on baptism.

If that were true, then you would be able to show at least one scripture showing a man being baptized to show the crowd of one's conversion.

No, at least not according to what you think Peter's POV is. You're completely ignoring what text plainly states:
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

You emboldened the wrong part of the verse.
The washing of regeneration, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, allows our participation in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
Our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life is the end result of baptism. (Rom 6:4)

The "washing of regeneration and renewal" is an act of the Holy Spirit, not water; water symbolizes what has been done by the Spirit.

The baptism and the Holy Ghost are one. (1 John 5:8)..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.'

Don't be sorry; I have the correct understanding, or at least more correct. You're clearly, again, ignoring the plain meaning of the text:
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Again you emboldened the wrong part of the verse...in the context of washing away past sins and also rebirth.

Perhaps you would prefer the KJV:
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I like that..."Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
It requires both a washing by the blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.
It would be ineffective without both.

This is any and all righteous works, period. There are absolutely no works which save (justify) us. This is supported by "but according to his mercy he saved us." There is simply no way around it--no works save us; they are completely ruled out. That is the consistent message throughout the NT. To teach otherwise means such a person is to be considered accursed. To persist in believing and teaching that error puts one outside the gospel and outside of Christ.

I will maintain that obedience to God is necessary for salvation.
He commands repentance from sin and baptism in His name for the remission of past sins...do these two things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Act 2:38)
The works of the Law that Paul wrote against though, will not save.

But, this comes down a serious problem that seems to persist on these forums--a near complete lack of understanding of how the NT talks about salvation as a past event (justification and sanctification), an ongoing reality (sanctification), and a future fulfillment (glorification). That is contributing to much confusion and differences in understanding in this thread.

They all occur at once, at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That is where we are in contact with His atoning, sanctifying, justifying, consecrating blood.

Water baptism saves no one. And to say that I am "diminishing" or even "outlawing" baptism and countermanding "Jesus' commandments" means you haven't understood me very well at all.

No man will be saved without remission of past sins, and baptism in Jesus' name is how that baptism is to be done.
May I ask, which church it is that teaches your doctrine ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus says believing is the criteria to be born again.

Words of Christ in red -

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:7-15


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

The devils believe, but won't be saved.
Salvation is made available to those who believe, but the believer must manifest their belief/faith with actions.

 

[Fish153]

With that post in mind, you must be able to see that those bringing forth evil works-sin, are not believers.

Absolutely. But it is important when reading James to understand what he is teaching. Many get it backwards and believe James is teaching that good works = salvation. Or believing, plus good works = salvation. That is the way the natural man thinks. The natural man sees Heaven being entered by being either on the good or bad side of a scale. If you have more good works you go to Heaven. That is not what the Bible teaches.

James is actually teaching that if you SAY you are saved then you SHOULD be showing forth fruits of righteousness and goodness. Good fruits and righteousness are the RESULT of ALREADY BEING SAVED. Don't say you are saved if you are showing forth bad fruit. But some pervert James' teaching and say good works = salvation. No---good works are the RESULT of salvation. This is what James is teaching. It is the teaching of the Spirit.

 

[Fish153]

If one wants forgiveness, baptism for the remission of past sins is necessary for that forgiveness.

The only way to rid one of past sins is by baptism in Christ's name. (Acts 2:38)

Nope, that would be the OT's approach.
Past sins are washed away by our "immersion" into Christ and His death.
It is His blood that cleanses one of past sins.

Baptism facilitates our immersion into Christ's death.
That is where His shed blood washes us.

If that were true, then you would be able to show at least one scripture showing a man being baptized to show the crowd of one's conversion.

You emboldened the wrong part of the verse.
The washing of regeneration, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, allows our participation in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
Our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life is the end result of baptism. (Rom 6:4)

The baptism and the Holy Ghost are one. (1 John 5:8)..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.'

Again you emboldened the wrong part of the verse...in the context of washing away past sins and also rebirth.

I like that..."Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
It requires both a washing by the blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.
It would be ineffective without both.

I will maintain that obedience to God is necessary for salvation.
He commands repentance from sin and baptism in His name for the remission of past sins...do these two things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Act 2:38)
The works of the Law that Paul wrote against though, will not save.

They all occur at once, at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That is where we are in contact with His atoning, sanctifying, justifying, consecrating blood.

No man will be saved without remission of past sins, and baptism in Jesus' name is how that baptism is to be done.
May I ask, which church it is that teaches your doctrine ?

Please read Acts 10 where Cornelius and the people with him receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptized. How did they receive the Spirit unless they were saved? They receive the Spirit BECAUSE THEY ARE SAVED, then they go to be baptized as a testimony to that salvation. Read the chapter yourself. Baptism did not SAVE them. Baptism was the RESULT of already being saved. I have nothing against baptism---it is commanded. But so is Communion. Communion doesn't save you. Communion is a RESULT of knowing one is saved. You take the bread and wine to remember him. Baptism does not save you. It is the next step AFTER you are saved.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Your last line said it was a gospel.
The phrase "Doctrine of the Gospel" seems to just be man's thoughts about the gospel.

Here is what I said my dear friend Hopeful
Here is the Gospel of Christ — This is what the Lord did for us, that would be the Remedy to Bring us to Him.
1. His Death
2. His Burial
3. His Resurrection
The Doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is this, and is the Spiritual Application that would implement the Lord’s Death, Burial, and Resurrection into our life. Starting with Repentance —
1. Repentance = Death to our sins — cutting off the sinful works in our life.
2. Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ = His Burial. — Washes away our sins according to Paul in Acts 22:16.
3. Baptism of the Holy Ghost = His Resurrection. — Bringing us into a New Life.
This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and its Spiritual implementation (Doctrine) in our life as New Born Children of God.
It’s Spiritual Implementation, meaning (Putting the Doctrine of Christ into practice, by obeying Acts 2:38.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Please read Acts 10 where Cornelius and the people with him receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptized. How did they receive the Spirit unless they were saved? They receive the Spirit BECAUSE THEY ARE SAVED, then they go to be baptized as a testimony to that salvation. Read the chapter yourself. Baptism did not SAVE them. Baptism was the RESULT of already being saved. I have nothing against baptism---it is commanded. But so is Communion. Communion doesn't save you. Communion is a RESULT of knowing one is saved. You take the bread and wine to remember him. Baptism does not save you. It is the next step AFTER you are saved.

No, Peter Commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized to complete the Foundational work of Salvation, not because they were already saved, as you say.