Biblical cessationism

[Edward]

The guy should have immediately sat down and had a visit. I've heard so many accounts similar to the above in the charismatic camps I became somewhat immune to them, as most of them were a bunch of sensationalist hyper emotional baloney.

If people want to see things they usually do.

As far as Gods Activity goes, YES, God is quite entirely Active upon the earth, today and every moment, in the NOW. But not as most suspect. The "workings" of the Word have not changed since day 1 of man in the Garden.

The law for example will still prompt lusts to enter the heart. Does anyone see that as a MIRACLE? It is, in the opposing sense of the Word. The law still prompts SIN actions in the world. Does anyone doubt their own eyes on this count? No. It's so obvious no one could miss it. And yes, this is a RESISTING action of sin and Gods Word, in the world, readily apparent to anyone.

Does God still do miracles of the good sort? Of course. Mercy still shows up here or there.

Were there more good fruit in the church collectively, we might see a lot of good things. That time will come, imho. But not by power or might, but by His Spirit.

The more interesting workings of the Lord are internal, not external. So how can anyone say there are no miracles or there is cessation when people are added to His Kingdom, daily? That alone makes the angels sing!

That guy shouldn't have taken his eyes off of Jesus. Time for a re-telling of Matthew 14, lol.

If Jesus fully manifested in a church, for real, people would probably start dying. Everyone would be thrown to the floor. Just from the glory of his presence.

As in John 18:
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground....!!!!!/

Those soldiers weren't there to worship Him, and they didn't fall of their own accord. When Jesus said I AM HE, He probably manifested just a wee bit of his glory (like at the transfiguration?) And mans corrupt flesh can not stand in the presence of holy glory.

It'd be like that in church if Jesus showed up. After seeing so many video testimonies of people seeing Angels or Jesus in church, I gotta admit, I started looking when in church...or gatherings.

 

[Malachi]

An apostle is one sent out by God that is indwelled with the Holy Spirit as they are sent out into the world as missionaries.

All apostles were missionaries, but not all missionaries are apostles. There are very specific biblical criteria which apply to apostles. The "sign" gifts accompanied the apostles to authenticate the Gospel message. With the demise of the apostles the sign gifts were withdrawn and we now have the complete Word of God.

 

[reba]

I see no place in Scripture that says this ....

With the demise of the apostles the sign gifts were withdrawn .....

 

[JohnDB]

I see no place in Scripture that says this ....

Neither have I. Extra-biblical texts have the Apostle John around at AD 90...

20 years after the signs and wonders ceased.
Paul died around 60AD either by execution or mob.

 

[reba]

When a statement is made which has no support in Scripture, it needs to be challenged, otherwise someone who is not well-versed could be misled. This is not a matter of "respect" or "disrespect" but one of truth vs error.

 

[Malachi]

I see no place in Scripture that says this ....

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8).

Church history confirms this:

On the other side of the debate, Phillip Schaff, the well-known 19th century church historian states tongues “passed away gradually with the other extraordinary or strictly”miraculous gifts. (Vol. 1 of History 236) Others, such as B.B. Warfield, refer to the“testimony of history” and that “miracles accordingly ceased with the apostolic age, and only after an interval are heard again”. (Chap. 1) “Miracles” did seem to happen after apostolic times but it was usually hearsay or “on historic Christianity’s outer fringe”(Dyer 53).

http://www.academia.edu/458797/Miraculous_Gifts_in_the_Early_Church_A_Historical_Analysis

There were a lot of legends created after the apostolic age, but we do not have to accept legends as facts.

 

[reba]

We have different opinions on how this verse is understood...

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Thinking on verse 9 who do you know that knows everything instead of in part... ?

 

[RevSRE]

You made this statement, "Many times we are the only ones holding us from experiencing God's best for us." WOW!! That blew me away! That is so true. I wish every Christian in the world could learn that simple Truth. Thank you!!

Hello Chopper, I have always beet told every christian when we are saved is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, we are a temple of God, a Priest of the most high God. WE HAVE all the power of the Living God. All the "Gifts of the Spirit are available to every Christian, AS GOD GIVES US WORK TO DO!! If we are called on to preach all we need to do is prayerfully prepare and be WILLING TO OBEY, He will lead us in the rest.
If God again needed us to speak other languages to prove that a group had received the Holy Spirit as in the Bible, that to is still there. The ones people dont like are service, teaching, prayer, comforter, but they are all still there for the child of God who will do HIS will.
I do not believe they ended. I believe we have trouble YIELDING TO GOD and letting HIM work through us.
We, when we are yielded to GOD, Have all the "Gifts" we need to do HIS WILL, It is about me being yielded to HIM.

The Apostles DID have gifts or power that Jesus gave just to them, these did not pass on beyond the Apostles.

 

[smaller]

That guy shouldn't have taken his eyes off of Jesus. Time for a re-telling of Matthew 14, lol.

If Jesus fully manifested in a church, for real, people would probably start dying. Everyone would be thrown to the floor. Just from the glory of his presence.

Don't know how the guy would have known him as Jesus anyway. Nobody knows what he looks like! Sorry tale.

As far as "Apostles" go, I've heard a lot of claimants. I've never met or HEARD a single one of them who could stand up to Paul's BASIC understandings, let alone any accompanying signs/miracles, etc etc. other than the usual, tall tales for cash, which usually accompanies such claimants, or is it claimaints?

Were I to "hear" the solid foundation AND accompanying stuff, I would concede to that reality in the present day.

I'd have to say we appear to be semi-organized as believers, but, in general, maybe a lot of things have been lost on all of us.

Can't really blame the believers. Jesus can strike a man (or woman) down anytime He pleases, just like He did with Paul, and MAKE an Apostle, IF it was needful.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Apostles.
12 Apostles.
Then Paul.
And he names apostles;
Barnabas Acts 14:14
Andronicus and Junia Romans 16.7
Silas and Timothy 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6;
Apollos 1 Corinthians 4:9

The Roman Catholic church called for an apostolic succession and named them popes.

No where in Scripture does it call for an end to apostles.

However the role of prophet has created confusion.
The prophet of old predicted the future.
Since the Bible is now complete, this has come to an end.
But the Prophet that edifies the church is very much alive and Paul says to seek these gifts.

When the church teaches that the gifts are dead, then the church dies with it.

 

[JohnDB]

Apostles.
12 Apostles.
Then Paul.
And he names apostles;
Barnabas Acts 14:14
Andronicus and Junia Romans 16.7
Silas and Timothy 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6;
Apollos 1 Corinthians 4:9

The Roman Catholic church called for an apostolic succession and named them popes.

No where in Scripture does it call for an end to apostles.

However the role of prophet has created confusion.
The prophet of old predicted the future.
Since the Bible is now complete, this has come to an end.
But the Prophet that edifies the church is very much alive and Paul says to seek these gifts.

When the church teaches that the gifts are dead, then the church dies with it.

Uhhh....
An Apostle is a wanderer by nature. He has no home and travels a lot. He may reside in a place for a time but then moved on as the Spirit leads him.

Today we have missionaries that fulfill this task. Both domestic and international.

It's not the same as a pastor. They can fill in a Sunday or two but they are a different functional consultant. They aren't involved in the local area where they are to a great extent...which is the pastor's job. They have a completely different focus. Nor are they an evangelist. Again a different job. But an Apostle may fill in that role if necessary.

An Apostle is there to assist in understanding scriptures, to assist by advising the pastor, to help find and seek out more traveling apostles.

It's a tough job...everyone doesn't like or appreciate your help. Correcting a Pastor's understanding of scriptures.... Yeah, that's going to be received well.

As an evangelist they are all alone. Trying to set up a church plant of wishy washy people. With others thinking you are taking advantage of the people you have led to Christ.

And one last thing.

A "prophet" was a rather loose term. It could mean someone who told of impending doom due to sin.
It could mean accurate forthtelling of current situation.
Or it could be preaching the Word of God.
All three of these could be tested to see if God had sent them. And a sign from God would testify as to their validity as one being sent. (Zachariah accidentally mistook Gabriel for a prophet.... Yeah that didn't work out so well... He should have known better considering it was good news)

 

[Malachi]

No where in Scripture does it call for an end to apostles.

Not an "end" but a very specific limit which indicates an "end".
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:28)... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:14).

 

[Malachi]

A "prophet" was a rather loose term.

NEVER a loose term. A prophet was a man who spoke the words of God by Divine revelation and inspiration, even in spite of himself. Prophecy is Divine revelation. Study Balaam and how he had no choice except to speak precisely what God gave him to speak. And so it was with every prophet. The apostles were also prophets in that they wrote Scripture by Divine inspiration, and Peter places ALL of of Paul's epistles at the same level as the Hebrew Bible (called "the other scriptures"). (2 Pet 3:15,16). Peter includes his own epistles in prophecy and says "we have a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY". Nothing loose about that.

 

[for_his_glory]

All apostles were missionaries, but not all missionaries are apostles. There are very specific biblical criteria which apply to apostles. The "sign" gifts accompanied the apostles to authenticate the Gospel message. With the demise of the apostles the sign gifts were withdrawn and we now have the complete Word of God.

Could you please show us in scripture where God said His gifts will cease after the death of the 12 and Paul? Did God make an end or was it man that just doesn't believe in the gifts of God anymore. When was 1Corinthians 12 taken out of the Bible?

 

[smaller]

I don't believe that any scripture has lost it's validity for today. This sight depends largely on "how" one views scriptures. It's conceivable that "genuine" Apostles exist today and I've just never ran across them. I have encountered believers who have had legitimate (imho) prophetic speakings. And many many more who were pandering with wicked spirits, thinking they were prophets. (think Mariolatry for example.)

Most of christianity today would probably reject just about any of what went on in the early church. Today we have "systems." Largely made up by the people engaged with these systems, with a smattering of truth here and there.

 

[for_his_glory]

The different way each gift is given is to be used in the ministry of Christ as in administrations, directors or delegates and only given to those who are led by the Holy Spirit. Different operations are for the function of the working body as each operations is given individually to each one by Gods Spirit for direction for what God purposes, not what man wants to control within the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:4-6

Word of wisdom is for us to know the mind of Christ to allow his Spirit speak to us and through us not only to instruct others, but for us to know for a surety that we are remaining in Gods will. Word of knowledge is for us to grow into maturity of Gods word to be able to speak his word with all power and authority that comes by his Spirit for all truths Proverbs 16:16; 1Corinthians 2:16; 2Timothy 2:15,15; 3:16,17.

Faith brings with it a good report that through the gift of faith (Christ Jesus) we have hope and can see the evidence of faith in action just as those gathered together in the upper room saw the evidence when Jesus was taken up and the Holy Spirit came down and fell on all of them as their faith was increased through belief. Faith is also displayed by those who come for healing and believe that Jesus truly is who he said he was as it is not the person laying hands on you, but the Holy Spirit using the hands of that person to heal you, but you have to have faith to believe in your healing, Hebrews 11:1,2; Matthew 10:1; James 5:15; 1Peter 2:24,25.

Working of miracles is God glorified through acknowledgement and amazement of the presence of God that he is the same yesterday, today and forever through his Spirit working through others as no one can speak evil and perform the signs of God on their own. It’s those signs that draw others to faith in Christ by actually seeing the power and authority Christ works through others as it is evidence through action. Prophecy is given to those prophets who speak through divine inspiration whom the will of God is expressed. Discerning of spirits is given to know what spirit is in action as there are two spirits that operate and one is the Spirit of truth and the other a spirit of error, 1John 4:1-6. Different kinds of tongue and interpretation of tongues means through all the different languages that are spoken in this world God will always give us interpretation of another language so we can all be as one in Gods word for teaching and learning, Mark 9:39; John 2:11; 1John 4:1-6; Genesis 11:9.

Different parts make up the whole body through one common factor that is the Spirit of God and works in all of us and through all of us for the glory of the Lord. The body of Christ has many members and many different functions yet it remains one body in Christ. There is no gift that places one higher than another as God is no respecter of person, but chooses those who have the Spiritual capability and availability to lead his people with the same love and compassion he shows us.

As an individual we can receive all the gifts of the Spirit within us, but can only use those gifts as the Spirit gives us unction to do so. We are all apostles and prophets that teach the word of God and perform miracles and heal the sick, but we do not do this of ourselves, but only by the Holy Spirit working in us and through us to reach out to the hearts of others.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Never say you are not gifted as you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the moment you humbled yourself and asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. God has a calling on all of us as being a witness of His mercy and grace as we share that witness of our own testimonies to the world as you have here in your post. There is no one greater than another as God is no respecter of person as we are all one in Christ and all have a witness with our own individual testimonies. There is no one that is a holy man as only God is Holy, but we are indwelled with His Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths as He works in us and through us as we let the light of Christ shine through us as a witness to His mercy and grace.

Thanks for_his_glory. Hope it's true.

 

[Malachi]

Could you please show us in scripture where God said His gifts will cease after the death of the 12 and Paul?

I have already shown from Scripture that CERTAIN GIFTS would cease -- not all gifts. There are about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the Scriptures, and the majority are still valid. The sign gifts and those of apostles and prophets were for a specific time and purpose. Since that purpose has been fulfilled, those gifts are not in operation (although claims are made and shown to be invalid).

One of the best proofs to confirm that some gifts would cease in James chapter 5. If the gift of healing was to continue indefinitely, then James would have recommended that Christians go to the healers within the assembly and get healed. Instead he says go to the elders and have them pray.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have already shown from Scripture that CERTAIN GIFTS would cease -- not all gifts. There are about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the Scriptures, and the majority are still valid. The sign gifts and those of apostles and prophets were for a specific time and purpose. Since that purpose has been fulfilled, those gifts are not in operation (although claims are made and shown to be invalid).

One of the best proofs to confirm that some gifts would cease in James chapter 5. If the gift of healing was to continue indefinitely, then James would have recommended that Christians go to the healers within the assembly and get healed. Instead he says go to the elders and have them pray.

If Christians would stop thinking that these gifts are dead, then maybe they would come alive in their lives.
What other gifts does the Bible tell us are dead?

 

[Malachi]

If Christians would stop thinking that these gifts are dead, then maybe they would come alive in their lives.
What other gifts does the Bible tell us are dead?

Well, let's ask you directly. How many genuine healers do you have in your local church, and how many times have they healed you? Not prayed for your healing, but actually healed you?