Biblical cessationism

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, let's ask you directly. How many genuine healers do you have in your local church, and how many times have they healed you? Not prayed for your healing, but actually healed you?

A big fat ZERO.
So we don't need you in our church to keep it that way.
I think ministries provide healing.
When Benny Hinn was doing big things in Orlando, I often wondered why.
I found out one day that almost all healing took place during the day before Benny Hinn ever came on stage.
Can you imagine, people actually believed that if they went to this healing meeting, that God would heal them.
And God did without Benny Hinn ever seeing them.

So healing does take place.
Big healing rallies like Benny Hinn are not in the Bible but that doesn't mean God won't use them to heal people.

How many people reach out to the community and help get people saved?
I'm sure there are many churches where the answer to that is "none".
But God still saves people anyway, doesn't he?
You don't believe in a gift being alive anymore?
Go out on a limb and start praying to God for it and see what happens.
You might get the surprise of your life.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for_his_glory. Hope it's true.

If you can testify of Christ then your hope has been fulfilled as it's our testimony of Christ working in our own life that we share with others to give them hope. Even if we did not have the written word God would still reveal himself to us as only God knows our heart and there will he speak to us.

 

[Malachi]

So healing does take place.

Healing does take place, and God does heal. But that is not the issue. The issue is the GIFT of healing.

1. You admitted that there are no genuine healers in your church.
2. You also indicated that people were healed before they went to see Benny Hinn.

If the gift of healing was operative, it would be operative in EVERY LOCAL CHURCH where there are genuine Christians. One would not need guys like Benny Hinn (a false teacher) claiming to be someone special. You would know in your own church that Brother X has the gift of healing, so you could go to him. But since this is not the case, is it not clear that some gifts are no longer in the churches?

BTW one does not have to necessarily pray for gifts, since they are given freely by the Holy Spirit, and every believer has at least one spiritual gift (1 Cor 12-14).

 

[for_his_glory]

I have already shown from Scripture that CERTAIN GIFTS would cease -- not all gifts. There are about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the Scriptures, and the majority are still valid. The sign gifts and those of apostles and prophets were for a specific time and purpose. Since that purpose has been fulfilled, those gifts are not in operation (although claims are made and shown to be invalid).

One of the best proofs to confirm that some gifts would cease in James chapter 5. If the gift of healing was to continue indefinitely, then James would have recommended that Christians go to the healers within the assembly and get healed. Instead he says go to the elders and have them pray.

Elder means those within the assembling who have the indwelling Holy Spirit that works through their hands to anoint with oil and lay their hands on the afflicted as by their faith they are healed, not by mans hands, but by the Holy Spirit that sends healing through their hands as we are the vessel God works through as being His voice, His hands and His anointing.

I do believe prophecy has stopped being spoken as it was in the OT by the Prophets as now we have the written word of God for instruction, but I do believe a person can receive a word from God as prophesying over an individual or even the assembling as I have experienced this in myself as I was given prophecy by another for personal instruction and what God told me to prophecy over another individual for personal instruction by God.

God has set some, not all, in the Church, as Church meaning the body of Christ wherever the assembling meets, and has given all the gifts listed in 1Corinthians 12:28 and these will never cease until Christ returns. If one can not see these gifts being displayed today they would have to be blinded to them.

1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

 

[JohnDB]

NEVER a loose term. A prophet was a man who spoke the words of God by Divine revelation and inspiration, even in spite of himself. Prophecy is Divine revelation. Study Balaam and how he had no choice except to speak precisely what God gave him to speak. And so it was with every prophet. The apostles were also prophets in that they wrote Scripture by Divine inspiration, and Peter places ALL of of Paul's epistles at the same level as the Hebrew Bible (called "the other scriptures"). (2 Pet 3:15,16). Peter includes his own epistles in prophecy and says "we have a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY". Nothing loose about that.

I should have said " loose in perceived function". I thought that the calling and appointment being very firm was rather clear.

 

[JohnDB]

And to the point of cessation...

There has not been one verifiable miracle (outside of the scriptures themselves) in modern times.

The last known verifiable miracle was Constantine's asking the Christians to side with him in the battle for the bridge. It was foretold in scripture and his account of seeing the sign in the sky do not conflict. His asking for the Christians was out of character and illogical because of their group size. But the result was incredible and unmistakable as a fulfilment of prophecy. (Except by people today).

I've heard story after story and investigated many...so have others and there isn't one yet. Experts have been called in to decipher tongues and found them to be jibberish.

So...it's not unbelievers doing the investigation it's believers...looking to have a single proof but unable to come up with one.

I want to find one...but there isn't any. I would love to show the world... Increase faith in many...but I keep finding hoaxes and liars.
The closest I come is incidents of natural causes with impeccable timing. And not enough of them to make a chart or logarithmic scale to. (Sample size is relevant to show abnormalities)

All of the miracles spoken about in the Early church were verifiable like healing, multiple languages, and forth telling and foretelling.

I don't doubt God at all. But I don't think that He wants miracles viewable to the population either. Otherwise the facts would be different.

 

[smaller]

I don't doubt God at all. But I don't think that He wants miracles viewable to the population either. Otherwise the facts would be different.

Probably closer to the fact. People, by our natures, tend to want to make hay/$$$ off these kinds of things.

Any actual "person" who had any such powers that may have been conferred early in the churches to establish legitimacy of the message, would be quickly over run and trampled from every direction imaginable.

 

[smaller]

Healing does take place, and God does heal. But that is not the issue. The issue is the GIFT of healing.

1. You admitted that there are no genuine healers in your church.
2. You also indicated that people were healed before they went to see Benny Hinn.

If the gift of healing was operative, it would be operative in EVERY LOCAL CHURCH where there are genuine Christians. One would not need guys like Benny Hinn (a false teacher) claiming to be someone special. You would know in your own church that Brother X has the gift of healing, so you could go to him. But since this is not the case, is it not clear that some gifts are no longer in the churches?

BTW one does not have to necessarily pray for gifts, since they are given freely by the Holy Spirit, and every believer has at least one spiritual gift (1 Cor 12-14).

Signs were, and still are imho, accompanying to a lesser degree to what God has said or has to say. They were not of the person by/through whom they came in any case of sights, but by God Himself.

There is, in reality, a constant flow of Gods Working in the world. But people are just not used to "observing" it, as the Spirit shows to observe. Nevertheless God in Christ is quite entirely "active" at all times. Hebrews 4:12 shows this beyond any doubt. Yet that working is not forensic or empirical for the "worlds" eyes to see.

 

[smaller]

There are some things that some will see and some won't and can't perceive.

For example:

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

These are not forensic matters. But, if a believer has "experienced" this, they will see it just as clear as a bell. And yes, it is a horrific sight to behold. But it is NOT a flesh sight and believers will not "see or hear" the hatred being spoken of, externally. It is spiritually derived sight. Vivid as can be, IF any believer is shown it. Some believers try to "force" the issue, externally, by proclaiming other people are going to hell and they falsely think that because people don't then "like them" that is the hatred of 'all men' and 'the world.'

IT'S NOT and has zero to do with that.

 

[for_his_glory]

duplicate

 

[for_his_glory]

And to the point of cessation...

There has not been one verifiable miracle (outside of the scriptures themselves) in modern times.

The last known verifiable miracle was Constantine's asking the Christians to side with him in the battle for the bridge. It was foretold in scripture and his account of seeing the sign in the sky do not conflict. His asking for the Christians was out of character and illogical because of their group size. But the result was incredible and unmistakable as a fulfilment of prophecy. (Except by people today).

I've heard story after story and investigated many...so have others and there isn't one yet. Experts have been called in to decipher tongues and found them to be jibberish.

So...it's not unbelievers doing the investigation it's believers...looking to have a single proof but unable to come up with one.

I want to find one...but there isn't any. I would love to show the world... Increase faith in many...but I keep finding hoaxes and liars.
The closest I come is incidents of natural causes with impeccable timing. And not enough of them to make a chart or logarithmic scale to. (Sample size is relevant to show abnormalities)

All of the miracles spoken about in the Early church were verifiable like healing, multiple languages, and forth telling and foretelling.

I don't doubt God at all. But I don't think that He wants miracles viewable to the population either. Otherwise the facts would be different.

Never discount that which you have never seen with your own eyes or mans surveys as I have seen many healed including myself by the power of God, I pray in tongues in my own prayer closet and have interpreted tongues within the assembling at times by that of the Holy Spirit. Yes there are many falsities in the world that have drawn doubt in others, but when one like me have experienced these miracles of healing, praying in tongues for not knowing at times how to pray for a certain thing, I have no doubt as God is the same yesterday, today and forever. People choose to limit the power of God by that of unbelief as it takes faith to believe in the miracles of God.

1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

 

[reba]

So some guy 2000 years ago is praying for healing of a brother... Word comes John is dead stop the prayer..

no more of such goings on...

 

[Chopper]

Ah, the gift of healing....All I can do is give you my own true experience in healing someone. There are two examples, both a little different. First one....Unbeknown to me, a lady on our worship team had migraine headaches for 60 years. One evening at practice, the Lord impressed my heart/mind that If I anointed her with oil and prayed for her, she would be healed of the headaches.

We stopped the practice and I did what the Lord had told me and she was healed that night. She came next week and testified that the headaches were gone. Now that has happened several times with different people. Every one that the Lord spoke to me about, were healed. It's been about 6 years since I've seen her and when I did, I asked her about the headaches and she said that they've never come back That is one way. I have prayed for others to be healed but weren't healed so I'm not a "faith healer". God told me who He wanted healed, my faith was exercised when 1. I believed Him and 2. I actually did what He asked me to do. He was faithful to me in healing.

I'll use the same instance. I asked the Lord, do you want me to do this alone, or have some of the Team lay hands on the Lady. He responded with, others lay hands. I did so, asking the members, if you feel led of the Holy Spirit to lay hands on her, do it. About 6 did. So here you have the gift of healing. Whenever I'm asked by God to heal a person, I ask others to lay hands on so that the focus is not on me doing the healing, but it could be that the gift of healing passed thru anyone of the members.

There have been times when someone on the internet has asked for prayer and God has answered that prayer. Usually I feel the presence of the Lord to heal but not always. I have to be very careful in the pride area. When these supernatural events happen, they tend to make me think, I'm not who I am, but special. I'm not special, I'm just a servant of my Master doing service for Him.

 

[Chopper]

I'm always a little skeptical of people who say this verse is for today and this verse is not. Being just a simple old country preacher, I take the verses to mean what they say. Like....
2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

It is my opinion that if there is Scripture that is obsolete, there would be instruction to say so. As far as the gifts and offices of the Church of Jesus Christ go's I go by this....
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

Now, if someone can show me from Scripture that verse 13 has been fulfilled, they still stand. Just because our leaders of the churches don't believe that the offices and gifts to the churches are not active today, doesn't make it so. I feel that because these have been outlawed in most churches, our churches are weak, ineffective in many ways, very little power of the Holy Spirit, and missing so much of what God has to offer.

 

[Malachi]

One evening at practice, the Lord impressed my heart/mind that If I anointed her with oil and prayed for her, she would be healed of the headaches.

Chopper, you just made my point. This was THE PRAYER OF FAITH that healed as per the epistle of James. If you had the spiritual gift of healing, that would have been totally different. You could have simply touched her (or have her touch you) and she would have been healed.

There are some here who insist that ALL the spiritual gifts are operative. That is simply false and misleading, since Rollo could not even point to one healer in his church who could simply heal. And this is true across the board and in all churches.

We should not be misleading Christians by saying that all the spiritual gifts are operational today. We should honestly admit that some gifts were for the apostolic age, and some are for the Church Age.

 

[Malachi]

There is, in reality, a constant flow of Gods Working in the world. But people are just not used to "observing" it,...

If this is a reference to signs, wonders, and miracles, people could not avoid observing them. A genuine healer would walk into a hospital and touch every patient and heal them. This news would be broadcast worldwide in a matter of minutes. That is what happened when Christ healed. The word spread like wildfire, and multitudes came to Him for healing -- AND HE HEALED THEM ALL.

 

[for_his_glory]

Chopper, you just made my point. This was THE PRAYER OF FAITH that healed as per the epistle of James. If you had the spiritual gift of healing, that would have been totally different. You could have simply touched her (or have her touch you) and she would have been healed.

There are some here who insist that ALL the spiritual gifts are operative. That is simply false and misleading, since Rollo could not even point to one healer in his church who could simply heal. And this is true across the board and in all churches.

We should not be misleading Christians by saying that all the spiritual gifts are operational today. We should honestly admit that some gifts were for the apostolic age, and some are for the Church Age.

I still believe all the gifts are still for today as it is God who chooses who He wants to work through at the time and purpose of His ministry. I do not believe in faith healers, especially the ones you see on TV as there is nothing anyone can do apart from God telling one to lay hands on another and the power of the Holy Spirit works through their hands. It is not we, but God using us a His vessel in whom He works through. Chopper was told by God to lay hands on this women for healing and her faith, not Chopper, made her whole. Chopper was the vessel God used for that particular time.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Elder means those within the assembling who have the indwelling Holy Spirit that works through their hands to anoint with oil and lay their hands on the afflicted as by their faith they are healed, not by mans hands, but by the Holy Spirit that sends healing through their hands as we are the vessel God works through as being His voice, His hands and His anointing.

I do believe prophecy has stopped being spoken as it was in the OT by the Prophets as now we have the written word of God for instruction, but I do believe a person can receive a word from God as prophesying over an individual or even the assembling as I have experienced this in myself as I was given prophecy by another for personal instruction and what God told me to prophecy over another individual for personal instruction by God.

God has set some, not all, in the Church, as Church meaning the body of Christ wherever the assembling meets, and has given all the gifts listed in 1Corinthians 12:28 and these will never cease until Christ returns. If one can not see these gifts being displayed today they would have to be blinded to them.

1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

I was in a Bible study once and a girl was crying over something and everyone was praying and people were trying to give advice.
As I prayed, a Bible verse came over me and stayed there.
I didn't know what it said but the verse number stayed with me.
I looked at it, said the Lord has given me a word, I spoke it , and the girl cried out, "that's just what I needed to hear".
For the first time in my life I knew that prophecy to edify the church was real.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, you just made my point. This was THE PRAYER OF FAITH that healed as per the epistle of James. If you had the spiritual gift of healing, that would have been totally different. You could have simply touched her (or have her touch you) and she would have been healed.

There are some here who insist that ALL the spiritual gifts are operative. That is simply false and misleading, since Rollo could not even point to one healer in his church who could simply heal. And this is true across the board and in all churches.

We should not be misleading Christians by saying that all the spiritual gifts are operational today. We should honestly admit that some gifts were for the apostolic age, and some are for the Church Age.

This topic never ceases to amuse me. Look, this is what the Scripture says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit....1Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.: Hey, it's not what you believe or what I believe, it's what the Holy Spirit wants to use, and when He wants to use a gift. He's in charge of the gifts!! Personally, I feel sorry for the churches that don't believe in all the gifts, guess what? Those gifts will be absent along with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, let's ask you directly. How many genuine healers do you have in your local church, and how many times have they healed you? Not prayed for your healing, but actually healed you?

Yes, 2 rhetorical questions.
You are a well trained salesperson.
Answer my question like a good boy, okay?