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Biblical Election and Predestination

JayR said:
Yet he CHOOSES to LOVE and CALL only SOME of these "workers of iniquity", . . .which YOU were and still are, and not [again] the overwhelming majority of humanity throughout time, past, present, and future! That means he HATES them. . . . . . MANY more than who "are called". It is obvious that your god is one of HATE, . . . . with a few small reminant of called. This has nothing to do with "hating evil". Your god could very well call everyone, but chooses to damn almost everyone, for his own pleasure, and for his own glory. :-?

Yes, He chooses to call some workers of iniquity, and I was, but no longer am by His regenerating work, because the counsel of His perfect will led Him to do so. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He hardens. What reply do you intend to make against a perfect God with a perfect will? "There is no wisdom nor understanding nor council against the Lord."

No. God couldn't call everyone. If He could He would, because He isn't willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is the desire of His heart, but the counsel of His perfect will has Him choose to damn some and execute PERFECT JUSTICE in perfect righteousness as He would on His elect if He hadn't justified them according to His own love, mercy, and unmerited favor.

And yes, it does have to do with hating evil. God is holy, holy, holy. He is pure, pure, pure. He is perfect, perfect, perfect, and He cannot and will not tolerate sin to any degree whatsoever.

D-:} What? . . . Are you kidding me?? God WANTS to save everyone, but CAN'T??? I thought he was all powerful and capable of doing anything? If he called SOME out of this sin, then he CAN call everyone else. . . . To say "the counsel of His perfect will has Him choose to damn some and execute PERFECT JUSTICE in perfect righteousness" makes absolutely NO sense, whatsoever, and I don't see how you can't understand that!! God doesn't HAVE to damn anyone!!!!

One other point, if you, JayR, commit a sin, isn't that a "work of iniquity", or are you sinless now? :-?
 
God WANTS to save everyone, but CAN'T???

God has the desire to save everyone, but He has not given the decree to do so. The issue isn't whether or not God has the power to save everyone, He absolutely does. That wasn't what I was saying. God isn't willing that any should perish, because He is love, but the counsel of His perfect will leads Him to decree otherwise. So in a sense, due to His perfection and the fact that His will is perfect and what He decrees will absolutely be perfect and will come to pass, and in the absolute perfection of the counsel of His will, He can't save the damned, because His will hasn't led Him to do so. It's not that He is unable to in the sense that He lacks the power to do so, but that His perfect will has led Him to do otherwise, and doing anything aside from the counsel of His perfect will is not perfect.
 
You're not perfect!! :-? How were YOU and YOUR sins any different than any other person's?? You make no sense here, JayR! You say that God wants all to come to repentance "because of his love", . . .yet God apparently HATES them with more hate than WE can even imagine, and chooses to NOT call them to repentance because of this "decree" you keep mentioning from God? This makes sense to you?? :-?
 
You're not perfect!! :-? How were YOU and YOUR sins any different than any other person's??

I never claimed to be perfect. The difference between me and my sins and the sins of unconverted men is that by the power of God I HATE my sins, and unconverted men love them and relish in them.
You say that God wants all to come to repentance "because of his love", . . .yet God apparently HATES them with more hate than WE can even imagine, and chooses to NOT call them to repentance? This makes sense to you?? :-?

Absolutely. God's love cannot be measured or described. It is a love that surpasses any idea of love that any human being is capable of having. No human being draws God's love from Him, no human being is capable of motivating God to do anything but condemn them to hell, but God is love, and He chooses to love, but He also hates workers of iniquity because He is absolutely perfect and holy. His justice demands that He send every single sinner to hell. "The soul that sins, it shall die." The counsel of His perfect will has led Him to choose to save a remnant according to His good pleasure, and to manifest His glory, but He has also chosen not to save some but to give them what all men deserve. God isn't willing that any should perish, not because of man, and because man somehow draws His love from Him, but because God is love, and God desires to manifest His love in saving men, but His perfect will and the perfect counsel of His will has led Him to decree otherwise.
 
mondar said:
Since free will is not a biblical term except for the "free will offerings of the OT." I gotta see this definition.
As always, a little thought is all it takes to dissemble the implication behind the claim that "free will is not a Biblical term".

Certainly the argument that "the Bible nowhere uses the term "free will" or "libertarian freedom" or whatever, is not a valid argument. The Bible never uses the term Trinity and yet I assume that we all believe in the concept of the Trinity.

When the writers of scripture sat down to write, they had at their disposal a palette of words and concepts. These are the buiding blocks that they used to write. Each word is essentially a symbol for meaning - words evoke meanings in the minds of the people who read them. This mapping between word and meaning, of course, has nothing to do with the Bible, but rather with the social contract by which people in a society agree to use, for example, the word "dog" to refer that furry four-footed animal that chases cats and barks. So let's disabuse ourselves of any notion that the Bible does not import "extra-Biblical" mappings between the words that make up the Bible and the "domain of meaning" to which those words refer.

The word "man" is in the Bible, but it is a concept that originates outside the Bible. Same with the words, "fig", "river", "war", etc. Now as Mondar has correctly pointed out, the context in which a word or phrase appears can nuance the meaning. So we properly nuance words like "love" when we read them in a Biblical context. The final meaning we accord to them is a complex mixture of the "standalone" imported meaning and the meaning as nuanced by context.

What about "free will". Is a "biblical term". Of course not! But neither is "man" or "fig", or "river". Let's not make the blunder of thinking that the Bible does not leverage off the "secular" meaning of words. And in some cases, the "secular" meaning is "copied without nuance, e.g. "river".

Does "free will" appear in the Bible as an explicit concept? No it does not. Just like Trinity does not. But, this does not mean that the writers of the Scriptures did not intend the readers to understand that it is there implicitly in phrases like "choose this day" or "without excuse".

It is beyond dispute that, in the secular domain of language use, many words have implicit meanings bundled into the them that are not explicitly stated in a definition. If I write "Fred loves Jane", the concept of love implicitly entails a wide range of things that are nowhere in sight in any dictionary or lexicon. For example, we can legitimately claim that the following assertion is implicitly present in the statement about Fred loving Jane: "Fred will not burn down her house, and kick her cat without a concurrent belief that this somehow is to Jane's benefit". The word "love", like a lot of words - is a shorthand symbol to refer to a vast set of behaviours and attitutes that cannot possibly be listed in "the dictionary".

Fact: Writers of Scriptures use (yes, import) non-Biblical concepts to construct their text

Fact: Many words have implicit entailed meanings that will not be listed in dictionaries and lexicons

Fact: Free will, as a non-Biblical concept is a meaningful coherent idea - it could be true to say that man has free will.

Assertion: "Free will", as a non-Biblical concept, is implicitly present in statements like "without excuse" and "choose".

The question as to whether the assertion is correct or not is properly settled as follows:

1. Determine whether the writers of the Scriptures lived in a society where there was a "social contract" that "without excuse", just as an example, implicitly entails free wiill.

2. If the answer is "no", then the matter has been been settled in the "calvinists" favour.

3. If the answer is "yes" then further work needs to be done. Specific uses of expression where free will could be implicit need to be analyzed in their "local" context. Does the context nuance things enough to justify overriding the interpretation of the presence of free will? If item (1) is true, then no such grounds for "taking the free will" out of "no excuse" is present in Romans 1:20. If you disagree in respect to what I am saying about 1:20, please tell me how the context would dictate otherwise.

4. If the answer to (1) is yes and, as per (3), there is no justification from the local context to "take the free will out", then we need to look at the broader Biblical context. Perhaps we will get a situation where (i) text A suggests the presence of free will in man; and (ii) text B suggests its absence.

5. Then we have a problem. But, and here I must appeal to the reader's sense of clear thinking, it would be a circular argument to "take the free will out of A" because of the teaching of B. This, I boldly suggest, is what many will do - they will argue that "free will" has been "imported" into A since B shows it is not a Biblical concept. That would be a faulty way to think. And, of course, Arminians will do this as well.

I do, in fact, think we face the situation in item (5). So I think the resolution to the matter is a complex task. But I am quite confident that item (1) is in fact true - there is a "social contract" whereby we implicitly acknowledge the presence of free will in such expressions as "being without excuse".
 
You are speaking in circles now. God CANNOT both absolutely love AND absolutely hate the same person. It is contradictory.

And for your information, JayR, . . . I HATE . . . . .HATE my sin. Every single time!!
 
You are speaking in circles now. God CANNOT both absolutely love AND absolutely hate the same person. It is contradictory.

Yes He can. What is impossible with man is possible with God. He absolutely does, too.

And for your information, JayR, . . . I HATE . . . . .HATE my sin. Every single time!!

Christ drank your wrath on the cross. You ought to hate your sins. Now repent, turn from them, forsake them, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
 
But surely, I'm not "one of the elect" just because I despise my sin. And it would seem that only those who are called will, in fact, hate their sin. :-?
 
You don't know if you are part of the elect or not and you won't until God saves you or you die and go to hell. Stop saying that.
 
JayR said:
You don't know if you are part of the elect or not and you won't until God saves you or you die and go to hell. Stop saying that.

You continue to confuse me. How will I know if God has saved me? Besides, I thought you said that only those who are called can hate their sin. Those who aren't called love their sin? :-?
 
Here is my marked up, admittedly somewhat editorialized version of the first bit of Romans 9, where I imagine that Paul has submitted Romans 9 in an English class as an essay and then has to add "comments" to explain to the teacher that he really is talking about election of individuals:

I speak the truth in Christâ€â€I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

[***I apologize for making this introduction so obviously about national Israel, given that I am shortly going to make theological statements that have no bearing at all on national Israel. I guess I was hoping that the reader would magically know that I have changed topics from Israel to individual election.]

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]


[***Again I apologize. Here I connect my introduction, which is obviously about national Israel, to specific individuals in order to address their election to salvation or loss without any reference at all to national Israel and this new "Israel according to the promise" that I have just introduced and talked about at length. I know that it looks like I am referring to these people to explain this "nation-level" distinction, but I really am not. Despite all the effort I have invested in talking about national Israel and now this new "true" Israel, my real goal here is a theology about individual election]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

[***Given my detailed emphasis on explaining the differences between these 2 Israels, and given that the obvious question at hand from context would be "Is God acting justly to form these 2 Israels?", I am really asking whether is just for God to do things like elect Ed Jones of Cincinnatti, Ohio to salvation and Fred Johnson of Scranton Pennsylvannia to damnation. Sorry about setting this up so the reader will think I am still talking about these 2 kinds of Israel.]

15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


[***Ooops. Misleading analogy again. Given my obvious reference to Exodus material where God angrily says "I will destroy Israel and make a nation of you, Moses", I am not really intending to talk about whether God has the right to define Israel any way He wants. I intend to talk about election of individuals, instead. And it was bad form of me to choose to refer to a story where God acts to harden someone to make a specific act of large scale redemption at a specific point in history. After all, I am going to shortly be talking about how, throughout history, God will elect this person and not that person to salvation, with no obvious reference to my working in history to fulfill my covenant. And even though I have talking about national Israel all along, and even though reference to the hardening of Pharoah suggests that I am about to make a point about the hardening of Israel, and even though I say the following in Romans 11 where it seems that national Israel has been hardened to reconcile the whole world to God, I am really talking about the election of individuals.]
 
Do you fear God? Do you keep His commandments? Do you walk as Christ walked? Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you? Do you hate evil, and love righteousness and follow as much righteousness as you can get your hands on? God promises these things to His people. If you don't have them now, it doesn't mean that He won't save you later, but I don't know. God knows.
 
JayR said:
Do you fear God?

I'm not sure what it means to fear God. . . when "perfect love is supposed to cast out all fear".

JayR said:
Do you keep His commandments?

It was a commandment from God to stone unruly children, adulteres, witches, homosexuals. Do you do these things?

JayR said:
Do you walk as Christ walked?

None of us are going to "walk as Christ walked", because none of us will do so and not commit sins.

JayR said:
Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you?

As far as I know, the Holy Spirit is the one who is supposed to convict a person of wrong doing. This conviction is something that I experience when I sin.

JayR said:
Do you hate evil, and love righteousness and follow as much righteousness as you can get your hands on?

I DO hate evil and am fond of things that are right, but it doesn't matter how much righteousness you do because it is a matter of grace, not of how righteous I can be, which leads to a form of "worship of self". Nothing we do can gain salvation.
 
I'm not sure what it means to fear God. . . when "perfect love is supposed to cast out all fear".

That verse isn't talking about casting out the fear of the LORD. God promises that He will inspire His people to fear Him for their own good so they won't turn away from Him. If you don't fear God, that's an indicator.
It was a commandment from God to stone unruly children, adulteres, witches, homosexuals. Do you do these things?

That covenant is over Orion. We're in the new covenant now. Do you keep the new covenant commands? If not, you don't know Him.

None of us are going to "walk as Christ walked", because none of us will do so and not commit sins.

The Bible says that if we don't walk as Christ walked we don't know Him. It doesn't mean that we will live in sinless perfection, but our lives should be marked by obvious characteristics that Christ had. Love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, longsuffering. If you don't have these things you don't know Him.
As far as I know, the Holy Spirit is the one who is supposed to convict a person of wrong doing. This conviction is something that I experience when I sin.

You have a conscience, but if you aren't bearing the fruit of the Spirit, then you don't know Him. The Spirit will bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God if you are a child of God. Christ promises that He will manifest Himself to His people. Has this happened to you? If not you don't know Him.
I DO hate evil and am fond of things that are right, but it doesn't matter how much righteousness you do because it is a matter of grace, not of how righteous I can be, which leads to a form of "worship of self". Nothing we do can gain salvation.

So you despise the thought of even imagining sexual immorality let alone staring at women with lust? You hate lust with a passion and avoid it at all costs? Or do you love it, and enjoy it, and submit to it?
 
JayR said:
That verse isn't talking about casting out the fear of the LORD. God promises that He will inspire His people to fear Him for their own good so they won't turn away from Him. If you don't fear God, that's an indicator.

But isn't "fear of turning away from him" a fear of going to hell? That's not a true love of God, but hoping you won't mess up and end up in Hell. I don't know how anyone will be able to keep up a perfect life in Heaven. I think it would be a type of torture being scared that you will mess up at any moment.

JayR said:
That covenant is over Orion. We're in the new covenant now. Do you keep the new covenant commands? If not, you don't know Him.

What are these new covenant commands. . . . . . the short list?

JayR said:
The Bible says that if we don't walk as Christ walked we don't know Him. It doesn't mean that we will live in sinless perfection, but our lives should be marked by obvious characteristics that Christ had. Love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, longsuffering. If you don't have these things you don't know Him.

These are great characteristics for anyone to have! I believe that I exhibit these traits.

JayR said:
You have a conscience, but if you aren't bearing the fruit of the Spirit, then you don't know Him. The Spirit will bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God if you are a child of God. Christ promises that He will manifest Himself to His people. Has this happened to you? If not you don't know Him.

I think I have these fruits.

JayR said:
So you despise the thought of even imagining sexual immorality let alone staring at women with lust? You hate lust with a passion and avoid it at all costs? Or do you love it, and enjoy it, and submit to it?

Yeah, I don't like when I even imagine stuff like that. It is a fruitless act. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, or don't occur from time to time, but I then realize how unsatisfying and stupid those types of thoughts are.
 
Will you listen to another sermon? It comes from the same man except this time he is preaching from 1 John. 1 John was written specifically so that the readers would know that they have eternal life. It is made up of a series of tests that are a reality in the life of a true believer. Will you listen to it? It's a great and powerful sermon. It would do you good. It will either assure you, and only if you salvation is from God, or it will dispell an assurance in a false salvation. Either way, it will accomplish good. What do you say?

It can be found here.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 5220621750
 
At the risk of being seen to pile on - adding even more evidence to a mountain of unrefuted evidence that Roman 9 has nothing to do with individual election - I will add something else about Jacob and Esau. Once more we have:

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

Not only can one appeal to the basic facts of the lives of Esau and Jacob - the elder did serve the younger if only because of the pragmatic consequences of being blessed by a father and given his estate. Esau from that moment was subordinate to Jacob.

But there is a deeper meaning here that dovetails so cleanly with the position that I have hitherto been describing.

As so much of Romans 11 explcitly states - the Jews have been hardened (like the potter hardens his pot) so that the new family, now including Gentiles, can come in. And the sequence of Paul's prose is such that he gives the potter account right after talking about the hardening of Pharoah. And what do we have after the potter account? We have this:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "


This is obviously a reference to the blessing of the Gentiles. So we are told who the vessels prepared for glory are - they are "true" Israel who have now been given access to covenant membership (no implication of specific persons being elected to this).

If it were not otherwise clear that the vessel fitted for destruction is national Israel - look back to Esau and Jacob earlier in Romans 9:

Esau represents the nation of Israel, Jacob the "children of promise" (which turns out to be "true" Israel). Do you balk at my claim about Esau, that he is never considered to be an ethnic Jew, so my reasoning is flawed?

Well remember the actual argument that Paul is making earlier in Romans 9. He is saying that "true" Israel is not determined by genetics. Esau is "genetically" an Israelite, even he is not a member of "true" Israel. So it is coherent to see Esau as representative of "national Israel", who think being in the family of God is something one is "born into". And, by the way, this is exactly what the Calvinist believes - that one is "born into" covenant membership.

If we see Esau as national Israel, we see echoes of exactly the point I have been advocating - national Israel, as the older brother (older since the Gentile are only now being grafted), is a vessel fitted for destruction to the benefit of the younger brother - "true" Israel.

Indeed the elder (national Israel) has served the younger (the children of promise) by being the place where the sin of the world is accumulated (ref Romans 5, 7) so that it can be borne by Jesus.

The way this all works together so perfectly makes it hard to believe that Paul would say:
"Ooops, those harmonies are your invention, I was really ever only talking about the election of Joe Smith to salvation and of Fred Jones to loss."
 
Follow-on to previous post:

We also have the parable of the prodigal son. It is easy to see the older brother as Esau / national Israel who scowl that the father has welcomed in the younger brother (Jacob / "true" Israel).

Here is part of the parable text. Please read it inserting "national Israel" for the older brother and "true Israel" as the younger

Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.


Note how the older brother is jealous of the younger brother. Note the hint that the older brother can still be the beneficiary of the father's graces. Note how the father still loves the elder brother. Now consider these passages about national Israel from Romans:

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?

As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Jews) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world." 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;


Paul is a genius. In Romans 9, he chooses Esau to represent national Israel (the older brother) and Jacob to represent "true Israel" (the younger brother). I do not know if Paul had access to the parable of the prodigal son. I think the connections between his theme in Romans 9 through 11 (Israel has been elected to "serve" the redemptive purposes of bringing "true" Israel into the covenant) and the parable are too striking to be coincidental.
 
Drew,
Concerning the definition of the term "free will." You jumped to massive conclusions based upon the fact that I merely said the term is not found in the bible. You suggest that I was saying that I think this means that the concept cannot be found because the term is not there. Where did I say that?

I did say something to the effect that "I gotta see this definition.!" If you want to bring up the trinity, I would probably exclaim the same thing, "I gotta see your definition of the trinity." By the way, its good to know that you are at least a trinitarian.
 
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