[_ Old Earth _] Big Bang ?

[Edward]

I know what you're saying but I'm saying that the Bible says no different. That's the irony. YECers believe they are sticking to the Bible and so often state that we are to interpret the creation account literally, yet, the Bible doesn't say that there was no death in the animal kingdom prior to the Fall. It clearly states that death enters for mankind at the Fall but that says nothing of the animal kingdom. What did anteaters eat prior to the Fall? What about alligators, sharks, etc.?

It's my understanding that carnivores were vegetarian before the fall.

I hear a lot of people use that same argument. That the bible doesn't actually say this or that, so it can't be true, or probably isn't and so forth like that. I don't think that's right. It's like people will not apply common sense to scripture. The bible is written simplistically, and I believe that it should be taken literally almost everywhere. Because there's a few parables in scripture, people jump all over that too, and if says something they don't understand or believe, then, oh well that's allegorical. When we get all legalistic and technical about scripture, we're demonstrating our lack of faith in the Word. Do you believe it or don't you? It's either all true or all lies. If you say that you believe it, but not this part or not that part, or oh what that really means is ...da da da, then one's really saying that they don't believe it.

Ok so the bible doesn't categorically state that carnivores were vegetarians in the beginning, granted. But it does say that when the Lord comes back that lions will be grass eaters.

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord./

So to me, this pretty much spells it out. And the slightest application of common sense would lead us to the belief that, this is how it was in the beginning also, before the fall. It makes more sense than oh the bible doesn't say carnivores ate grass then so let's throw that idea out the window. If we're going to read into the scripture, let's use common sense and not a lawyeristic tone.

Ok so, maybe they did or didn't eat meat back then...I believe they did not, based on this. You believe that they (probably) did. Based on what?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Something happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create the earth in vain, he created it to be inhabited. Genesis 1:2 says the earth was formless and void. Would God have created the earth without form and void? Then in Genesis 1:28 God tells man to replenish the earth telling me something was here before.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Ricko,
I'll give you credit for determination but this string has nothing to do with the Gap theory that has been pushed by one or two people in a thousand. Start your own string.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's my understanding that carnivores were vegetarian before the fall.

I hear a lot of people use that same argument. That the bible doesn't actually say this or that, so it can't be true, or probably isn't and so forth like that. I don't think that's right. It's like people will not apply common sense to scripture. The bible is written simplistically, and I believe that it should be taken literally almost everywhere. Because there's a few parables in scripture, people jump all over that too, and if says something they don't understand or believe, then, oh well that's allegorical. When we get all legalistic and technical about scripture, we're demonstrating our lack of faith in the Word. Do you believe it or don't you? It's either all true or all lies. If you say that you believe it, but not this part or not that part, or oh what that really means is ...da da da, then one's really saying that they don't believe it.

Ok so the bible doesn't categorically state that carnivores were vegetarians in the beginning, granted. But it does say that when the Lord comes back that lions will be grass eaters.

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord./

So to me, this pretty much spells it out. And the slightest application of common sense would lead us to the belief that, this is how it was in the beginning also, before the fall. It makes more sense than oh the bible doesn't say carnivores ate grass then so let's throw that idea out the window. If we're going to read into the scripture, let's use common sense and not a lawyeristic tone.

Ok so, maybe they did or didn't eat meat back then...I believe they did not, based on this. You believe that they (probably) did. Based on what?

But you are right Edward, I the creation story it specifies that neither man nor beast consumed meat when it give the grass and the trees for food for all of us. And man did not eat the sacrifices to god until the end of the Flood when God gave the animals to Noah and his sons.

 

[Edward]

But you are right Edward, I the creation story it specifies that neither man nor beast consumed meat when it give the grass and the trees for food for all of us. And man did not eat the sacrifices to god until the end of the Flood when God gave the animals to Noah and his sons.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

So the question stands. How did the dinosaurs die off before Death entered into the world because of the fall?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

So the question stands. How did the dinosaurs die off before Death entered into the world because of the fall?

They didn't and they are still here. The most obvious are the American Alligators, the African Crocs, the Australian Croc known as the Salties that also stretch across Indian Ocean or, I don't recall sea. The easiest for us to see in America are the Camillians found in the south that crawl across m window screens and drive my cats nuts. From Florida and Georgia across to California and well into South America the Dinosaurs are here.

I had a Brown Salamander that normally does not ever grow more than 4 inches long, great live Bass bait. I nearly stepped on the little guy so I picked him up and placed him between four of the Logs I had stacked from the Sweet Gum trees on my lot for them to rot into fertilizer. I do no recall the exact number of years but about five years later they were soft and beginning to fall apart and it was time for me to smash them over the property.

Now, any of us that have composted know that piled properly the compost will hit 160 or better, even in the winter in the heart of the pile. these were just stacked but they were cut in the spring, early, and piled to rot. The little man was still in there, in his protected hiding place and my memory is getting bad but I recall he had grown to over 16 inches, protected and warm all winter long by the rotting materials. that sounds absurd until one remembers that winter in SE Texas can be as short as a month with Sceeters all year long.

The Dinos were giant lizards and I will postulate that Noah had 7 Female and 7 Males on board, what they would have considered, babies.

 

[Edward]

They didn't and they are still here. The most obvious are the American Alligators, the African Crocs, the Australian Croc known as the Salties that also stretch across Indian Ocean or, I don't recall sea. The easiest for us to see in America are the Camillians found in the south that crawl across m window screens and drive my cats nuts. From Florida and Georgia across to California and well into South America the Dinosaurs are here.

I had a Brown Salamander that normally does not ever grow more than 4 inches long, great live Bass bait. I nearly stepped on the little guy so I picked him up and placed him between four of the Logs I had stacked from the Sweet Gum trees on my lot for them to rot into fertilizer. I do no recall the exact number of years but about five years later they were soft and beginning to fall apart and it was time for me to smash them over the property.

Now, any of us that have composted know that piled properly the compost will hit 160 or better, even in the winter in the heart of the pile. these were just stacked but they were cut in the spring, early, and piled to rot. The little man was still in there, in his protected hiding place and my memory is getting bad but I recall he had grown to over 16 inches, protected and warm all winter long by the rotting materials. that sounds absurd until one remembers that winter in SE Texas can be as short as a month with Sceeters all year long.

The Dinos were giant lizards and I will postulate that Noah had 7 Female and 7 Males on board, what they would have considered, babies.

Yeah. I believe that too. It makes sense. But the evolutionists will tell you that the dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago, even before Adam & Eve hit the scene. So they have a hole in their belief. They couldn't have died off before Adam & Eve.

There's even archaeological evidence of dinosaurs being here when man was here. I've seen pics and videos of carvings of what appeared to be a stegosaurus. This was before cameras and history books and archaeological digs to find skeletons, so in order to make carvings of dinosaurs, they would have had to seen them!

https://www.google.com/search?q=sto...ZD_YeM%2C_&usg=__YAm7LjBa5is4oAOSOyS8zA7dUPk=

 

[lordkalvan]

They didn't and they are still here. The most obvious are the American Alligators, the African Crocs, the Australian Croc known as the Salties that also stretch across Indian Ocean or, I don't recall sea. The easiest for us to see in America are the Camillians found in the south that crawl across m window screens and drive my cats nuts. From Florida and Georgia across to California and well into South America the Dinosaurs are here.

I had a Brown Salamander that normally does not ever grow more than 4 inches long, great live Bass bait. I nearly stepped on the little guy so I picked him up and placed him between four of the Logs I had stacked from the Sweet Gum trees on my lot for them to rot into fertilizer. I do no recall the exact number of years but about five years later they were soft and beginning to fall apart and it was time for me to smash them over the property.

Now, any of us that have composted know that piled properly the compost will hit 160 or better, even in the winter in the heart of the pile. these were just stacked but they were cut in the spring, early, and piled to rot. The little man was still in there, in his protected hiding place and my memory is getting bad but I recall he had grown to over 16 inches, protected and warm all winter long by the rotting materials. that sounds absurd until one remembers that winter in SE Texas can be as short as a month with Sceeters all year long.

The Dinos were giant lizards and I will postulate that Noah had 7 Female and 7 Males on board, what they would have considered, babies.

Crocodiles, alligators and salamanders are not dinosaurs and no taxonomic classification that I am aware of includes them as such.

 

[lordkalvan]

Yeah. I believe that too. It makes sense. But the evolutionists will tell you that the dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago, even before Adam & Eve hit the scene. So they have a hole in their belief. They couldn't have died off before Adam & Eve.

There's even archaeological evidence of dinosaurs being here when man was here. I've seen pics and videos of carvings of what appeared to be a stegosaurus. This was before cameras and history books and archaeological digs to find skeletons, so in order to make carvings of dinosaurs, they would have had to seen them!

https://www.google.com/search?q=stone carvings of dinosaurs&espv=2&biw=1164&bih=804&tbm=isch&imgil=wyENyMUJDocEZM%3A%3BaVo4buxyZD_YeM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.apologeticspress.org%252Faparticle.aspx%253Fcid%25253D4535&source=iu&pf=m&fir=wyENyMUJDocEZM%3A%2CaVo4buxyZD_YeM%2C_&usg=__YAm7LjBa5is4oAOSOyS8zA7dUPk=

Claims that the Angkor Wat temple carving represents a stegosaurus seem to be a classic case of confirmation bias, where evidence is interpreted to fit a pre-existing conclusion. The carving resembles a rhinoceros as much as it does a stegosaurus, perhaps even more so, and, while rhinos are indigenous to South-East Asia, neither stegosaurus fossils nor stegosaurus bones have ever been found there, a remarkable absence if the creatures were roaming there relatively recently.

The Ica Stones have been so widely discredited as anything other than fakes, that continuing to cite them as evidence of them as human-dinosaur co-existence seems almost self-defeating.

 

[twinc]

They didn't and they are still here. The most obvious are the American Alligators, the African Crocs, the Australian Croc known as the Salties that also stretch across Indian Ocean or, I don't recall sea. The easiest for us to see in America are the Camillians found in the south that crawl across m window screens and drive my cats nuts. From Florida and Georgia across to California and well into South America the Dinosaurs are here.

I had a Brown Salamander that normally does not ever grow more than 4 inches long, great live Bass bait. I nearly stepped on the little guy so I picked him up and placed him between four of the Logs I had stacked from the Sweet Gum trees on my lot for them to rot into fertilizer. I do no recall the exact number of years but about five years later they were soft and beginning to fall apart and it was time for me to smash them over the property.

Now, any of us that have composted know that piled properly the compost will hit 160 or better, even in the winter in the heart of the pile. these were just stacked but they were cut in the spring, early, and piled to rot. The little man was still in there, in his protected hiding place and my memory is getting bad but I recall he had grown to over 16 inches, protected and warm all winter long by the rotting materials. that sounds absurd until one remembers that winter in SE Texas can be as short as a month with Sceeters all year long.

The Dinos were giant lizards and I will postulate that Noah had 7 Female and 7 Males on board, what they would have considered, babies.

btw not forgetting there are even now huge Komodo Dragons in Indonesia - twinc

 

[twinc]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

So the question stands. How did the dinosaurs die off before Death entered into the world because of the fall?

as it was in the beginning, before the fall, so shall it be restored and the lion shall lie down with the lamb etc - btw the Dinosaur was created in the 19th century but that which was like unto a Dinosaur was created on the 6th day along with humans and other animals and was in the queue waiting to be named by ADAM - twinc

 

[TOG]

They didn't and they are still here. The most obvious are the American Alligators, the African Crocs, the Australian Croc known as the Salties that also stretch across Indian Ocean or, I don't recall sea. The easiest for us to see in America are the Camillians found in the south that crawl across m window screens and drive my cats nuts. From Florida and Georgia across to California and well into South America the Dinosaurs are here.

I had a Brown Salamander that normally does not ever grow more than 4 inches long, great live Bass bait. I nearly stepped on the little guy so I picked him up and placed him between four of the Logs I had stacked from the Sweet Gum trees on my lot for them to rot into fertilizer. I do no recall the exact number of years but about five years later they were soft and beginning to fall apart and it was time for me to smash them over the property.

Now, any of us that have composted know that piled properly the compost will hit 160 or better, even in the winter in the heart of the pile. these were just stacked but they were cut in the spring, early, and piled to rot. The little man was still in there, in his protected hiding place and my memory is getting bad but I recall he had grown to over 16 inches, protected and warm all winter long by the rotting materials. that sounds absurd until one remembers that winter in SE Texas can be as short as a month with Sceeters all year long.

The Dinos were giant lizards and I will postulate that Noah had 7 Female and 7 Males on board, what they would have considered, babies.

Actually, Noah would only have had 2 males and 2 females, since reptiles are unclean animals. I agree with the rest of what you say. Many of today's lizards are almost indestinguishable from dinosaurs, except for the size.

The TOG​

 

[lordkalvan]

Actually, Noah would only have had 2 males and 2 females, since reptiles are unclean animals. I agree with the rest of what you say. Many of today's lizards are almost indestinguishable from dinosaurs, except for the size.

The TOG​

Do you have some examples in mind? Clearly a velociraptor is not very much like a gecko, for example.

 

[TOG]

Do you have some examples in mind? Clearly a velociraptor is not very much like a gecko, for example.

Let's see... I said "I agree with the rest of what you say". I wonder where you might find some examples...

The TOG​

 

[lordkalvan]

Let's see... I said "I agree with the rest of what you say". I wonder where you might find some examples...

The TOG​

Given that crocodiles, alligators and salamanders are not and were not dinosaurs, I wonder what dinosaurs you understand them to be 'almost indisntinguishable from'.

 

[Edward]

Awesome. Now the thread is at the point of 'Uh-uhh prove it'.



Which one are you saying looks more like a rhino than a stegosaurus? Post a pic of it, maybe we're thinking of different ones? Did you visit the link of images I posted? There's a bunch of them in there, that I wasn't even aware of. Like triceratops for instance.

 

[lordkalvan]

Awesome. Now the thread is at the point of 'Uh-uhh prove it'.

Extraordinary claims usually require extraordinary evidence.

Which one are you saying looks more like a rhino than a stegosaurus? Post a pic of it, maybe we're thinking of different ones? Did you visit the link of images I posted? There's a bunch of them in there, that I wasn't even aware of. Like triceratops for instance.

The third one in your link:

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia-stegasarus.jpg

 

[Edward]

Extraordinary claims usually require extraordinary evidence.

The third one in your link:

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia-stegasarus.jpg

That is the one I was thinking of. Do rhinos have those fin things on top of them? No.

Evolutionists claims are just as extraordinary. You claim to know things for a fact that were going on millions of years ago. Like you were there or something, lol.

 

[Allen Sherry]

If we are to fit the Big Bang with Scripture, it would be in Gen 1:1 only. Everything else would be after the Big Bang.


Those things have nothing to do with the Big Bang but there was death and suffering before and after God saw that everything was very good. What do you think all the carnivores ate?

Actually not. Death was never part of God's creation until after the Fall. Death was a punishment for man disobeyed God. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Romans 5:12. And about the carnivores, that was not possible either. There were actually no carnivores before the Fall. "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." All of the animals were veterinarians, even man. Matter of fact, about 1,600 years later after the creation is when they could eat meat and that was after the flood. "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." Genesis 9:2 & 3

 

[Allen Sherry]

Something happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create the earth in vain, he created it to be inhabited. Genesis 1:2 says the earth was formless and void. Would God have created the earth without form and void? Then in Genesis 1:28 God tells man to replenish the earth telling me something was here before.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The word without form and void doesn't mean destruction or desolate. There is only 1 phrase that means without form and void would be in Isaiah, but it was talking about a city, if I recalled it right. And in that case, it would be without form and void.

But the word without form, means... without form. It means that God is not done with it yet. Remember, this is Day 1, where there was only water. The water was without form. And void means that there was no life yet. It is simply put that God is starting to work on it. Just like a potter and the clay. At the beginning, it was without form, but after a while, it begin to change shape.

And the word "Replenish" doesn't mean to refill. Yes, it does in our language today. But if we go back only about 1 or 2 centuries ago.it did not mean to refill. It just simply means to fill. But I think in the 1700's or 1800's is when they decided to use the prefix "re" to mean "do it again."

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yeah. I believe that too. It makes sense. But the evolutionists will tell you that the dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago, even before Adam & Eve hit the scene. So they have a hole in their belief. They couldn't have died off before Adam & Eve.

There's even archaeological evidence of dinosaurs being here when man was here. I've seen pics and videos of carvings of what appeared to be a stegosaurus. This was before cameras and history books and archaeological digs to find skeletons, so in order to make carvings of dinosaurs, they would have had to seen them!

https://www.google.com/search?q=stone carvings of dinosaurs&espv=2&biw=1164&bih=804&tbm=isch&imgil=wyENyMUJDocEZM%3A%3BaVo4buxyZD_YeM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.apologeticspress.org%252Faparticle.aspx%253Fcid%25253D4535&source=iu&pf=m&fir=wyENyMUJDocEZM%3A%2CaVo4buxyZD_YeM%2C_&usg=__YAm7LjBa5is4oAOSOyS8zA7dUPk=

You are right but just as I pointed out to Kalvan, coming to your and my conclusions requires a wide evidence examination and not such a predetermined conclusion before the examination. In some of the evidence I suggested watching is the proven suggestion that 90% of the evidence found in the same strata as the Dinos is cast aside because it does not fit their hypothesis and few are they that will look at contradiction to their taught ideas. Primary and secondary instruction, right or wrong is a difficult wall to ascend.