'birthpains' & 'signs of the times'

[lecoop]

We ended up talking about the 70th week in Daniel, and then the second half of said week, the 3 1/2 years. Daniel had mentioned that at some time in the future, a man would stop the daily sacrifice and then perform the "abomination that makes desolate," and that this abomination event would split the week into two each, 3 1/2 year periods. Then we saw that Jesus mentioned this same abomination event, and related it to the "time of the end."

Now we will see that John, writing in 95 AD, wrote of these same things. Twice Daniel mentiond the 3 1/2 years, written as time, times and the dividing of time. John also wrote the same thing:

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

We must pay particular attention to something that is written twice in the Word of God. Notice here that "the woman" flys into the wilderness, fleeing from the serpent. Since John mentions this twice, we should look at the other verse:

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Why is the woman fleeing? Why is she there for 1260 days (3 1/2 years)? Let's go back and look again at what Jesus said:

Matt. 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

When is "then?" It is when they see the abomination being performed. Remember, this abomination event will take place at the exact midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel, so the time remaining in the week (of years) will be exactly 1260 days. Therefore, it is clear that the "woman" meaning those living in Judea, will flee when they see this abomination event. John is showing us this fleeing. Therefore, we know that the actual abomination event, causing this fleeing, will be some time before this 6th verse of chapter 12. However, let's look at John's other mentions of this 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This is the first time that John mentions this 3 1/2 year period. This shows us that John is very near the exact midpoint, and time of the abomination event, here in chapter 11. John tells us that the Holy City will be trodden by Gentiles for 42 months. This also tells us that the Gentiles will be removed after the 42 months. This did not happen in 70 AD.

Rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Here we see the 3 1/2 years again, this time as 1260 days. John is telling us that two witnesses will show up very near the exact midpoint of the 70th week, and will testify for exactly 1260 days. Therefore, this also is a hint that John is VERY close to the midpoint of the week, and the abomination event, here in 11:2.

Rev. 13
5 And there was given unto him [the beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Again, we see that John is near the midpoint in his narrative. The beast will be given authority to persecute the saints for 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

We have seen the people fleeing the abomination, we have seen that the beast has been given authority for 42 months starting with the abomination.

We saw in the first segment, that Daniel spoke of a time of trouble.

"Please notice that Daniel said something almost the same in 12:1: "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."


Then Jesus spoke of the same period of time:

Mat 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Studying Revelation, we see that John also wrote of this time, in 95 AD, after the terrors of 70 AD:

Rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

First notice that John says "the remnant of her seed." Why remnant? Who is the "woman's" seed? John is speaking of those that are "in Christ;" and born again. Why only a remnant of those "in Christ?" There is only a remnant left, for the "main body" of Christ was raptured long before this time. John shows us the raptured church in Rev. 7, as the great crowd without number. Satan, the great dragon, has just been cast down to earth, and is very angry, and intends to rid the earth of both the Israelites and the Christians. We see this thought continued through the beast. He has been given power to put the saints to death. Daniel put it this way: "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High."

Now, did these events take place in 70 AD? Those of the preterist belief would have us believe so. However, let's go on, and see if these things happened in 70 AD.

Rev 13
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The great persecution gets so strong that people must worship an image, and get a mark, without which they cannot buy or sell. The intense pressure is now on! Will people starve, or get the mark? They pressure will be intense to resist, for each person on earth will hear from an angel:

Rev 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Yet, the feeling of starvation will be enough to cause many to take the mark, and be doomed. Again, the preterists would have us believe that John is writing about events in 70 AD. In truth, John wrote (about 95 AD) about events yet future to us! There is not one hint on the pages of history that a mark was required to buy or sell, not is there a word about a statue or image and people forced to worship it, on a world wide scale! Neither is there mention on the pages of history, of masses numbers of people starving to death, rather than take a mark, nor a word about massive numbers of people being beheaded for refusing said mark. Yet the preterists would have us beleive that all these things took place in 70 AD. There are no words written in history that would show the events in the first half of a seven year period, like the 7 trumpets, nor events such as the 7 vials and plagues in the second half of a seven year period, yet the preterists would have us believe that all these events took place in 70 AD.

Where, then, in John's book, did the abomination event take place? John was not shown this event, and so, did not tell us about it. However, he did give us enough pieces of the puzzle that we can determine it. Remember our mention of God using the "7's" as markers? We saw that the Day of the Lord started with the 7th seal. Now look at the 7th vial:


Rev 16 (Worldwide English Version)
17 Then the seventh angel poured his bowl into the air. A loud voice came from the temple and the chair. It said, `It is finished!' ['done']

Please keep in mind that something started with the 7th seal, and now at the 7th vial, John says "it is finished." What is finished?" Could the "day of the Lord" be finished? No, because several verses include the battle of Armageddon in the "day of the Lord." Could the wrath of God be what is "finished?" No, for we see His wrath very much displayed during the battle of Armageddon. What about the 70th week of Daniel? Yes, that is what is finished here at the 7th vial. Therefore, both the "day of the Lord," and the 70th week of Daniel begin with the 7th seal, and the 70th week is ended here at the 7th vail. Now we see that the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. Could it be that the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint? Yes. While the 7th trumpet is sounding in heaven (an event which John saw) the beast was performing the abomination event on earth (an event which John missed - as he was seeing the heavenly scene.)

We see the proof of this, when just a few verses after the 7th trumpet is sounded, the woman has fled to the wilderness, fleeing the abomination. Do the pages of history show us an abomination event that takes place exactly in the middle of a "seven,", with 7 trumpet events before it, and 7 vials and plagues of God's wrath after it? Of course the preterists will try to prove it, but will fall short. If this was about the destruction of Jerusalem, in 70 AD, then Titus would have had to set up a false God in the temple, and then walk in himself and declare himself to be God (to fulfill what Paul said) and then, after seeing this, thousand would have to flee the city. Did this happen this way? Of course not! Titus did not even want to destroy the temple, much less erect a false God there. In fact, his army destroyed the temple, to get the melted gold. John wrote about these events about 25 years after Titus destroyed the temple.

Did Titus and his armies (Gentiles) withdraw after 42 months, and allow the Jews to take over the temple once again? Oh! They could not, for the temple was destroyed, and they, the Jews, were killed! No, the Jews did not take over Jerusalem after their destruction either! John was not writing about 70 AD events, but rather, events that are still in our future.

Did two witnesses show up in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Were they impervious to Titus and his soldiers? Did fire come out of anyone's mouth to devour those that tried to stop them? Curiously, Josephus writes nothing about these two witnesses. Why? Because John was writing about a time still future to us. There was not two witnesses in Jerusalem that could not be killed!

We see then, that the 70th week of Daniel is clearly marked in the book of Revelation, with the beginning at the 7th seal, the midpoint at the 7th trumpet, and the ending at the 7th vial. Let's now look at the 70th week, in the next post.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Previously we saw that the 70th week started with the 7th seal. What is the next realtime event? It is the first trumpet, which will be sounded, soon after the 7th seal: perhaps 30 minutes or so after the 7th seal.

Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

There is no words or language here that would point to this being localized, as in Jerusalem, or in Judea, or even in the Middle East. It seems like it is 1/3 of the land mass of the earth. Did this happen in 70 AD? Of course it did not.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Here we see 1/3 of the "sea" turned to blood. It would be extremely amiss of Josephus to miss writing about such an event, if it happened back then. But, of course it did NOT happen in 70 AD, as this is an "end time" event. Is this in referrence to the "sea of Galilee?" Perhaps the Mediterranean sea? Or perhaps all the oceans of the world? It would seem that this is world wide. This is the second event of the first half of Daniel's 70th week, and will probably happen about 7 months into the first 42 months. About 3 1/2 years later, or perhaps 4 years, the second vial will be poured out with the second plague:

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it [the entire sea] became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (Emphasis added)

We can see that in the trumpets, God performs a 1/3 destruction, as a warning of worse things, to see if men repent. Then in the vials of His wrath, it is total destruction. Who is God mad at? Of course, all who have not repented. Would this be limited to Israel? No, evil men are around the world! This second vial will be poured out, sometime during the second half of Daniel's 70th week: how far we don't know, for God does not tell us. However, Jesus said that the time of intense persecution [great tribulation] would be "shortened," not done away with. Therefore, I would guess that the beast would be stopped somewhere after a year or two. It is these vials and plagues that "shorten" the days, so they probably will not be started until the beast has had perhaps a year or two to persecute the saints.

Rev 8
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

This third angel will sound his trumpet, perhaps 15 months after the 7th seal was broken, or 15 months into the first 42 months. Again, this does not say "the rivers of Israel," and therefore gives readers the idea that this will be world wide.

Rev 16
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Again, we see that in the first half of the week, God, in His great mercy, gives only a 1/3 destruction, giving men time to repent; while in the second half of the week, it is total destruction. Again, there is no language that would limit this to Israel, or even the Middle East. We do not know how long it will be between these vials, for God does not tell us.

Rev 8
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

It would seem extremely likely that anything affecting the sun would be a world wide effect. This fourth trumpet could be sounded about 22 months into the first 42 months.

Rev 16
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Again we see that with the trumpet, there is a 1/3 effect on the sun, while in the vial, it is total. And once again, this would seem to be world wide. This vial will be sometime soon after the third vial, sometime late in the second 42 months.

Rev 8
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Again, the language seems to indicate the whole world, not just Jerusalem! God is saying that each of the last three trumpets will bring a woe.

Rev 9
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

This is something demonic, and unheard of in the earth today. Josephus did not write about this, because it did not take place then, nor ever has. This is reserved for the "day of the Lord." It will take place, probably 29 months into the first 42, and will last for 5 months. Who will be stung by these beasties? Is this limited to Israel? No, it says that they are for any man that does NOT have the seal - that is the 144,000 that were sealed for their protection. In other words, here we do have words that give us at least a hint that this is world wide. This will be the first woe.

Rev 9
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

This 6th trumpet will be sounded, probably about at the 3 year mark, or at the 36th month into the first 42 months. Will this be world wide? One thing I know for sure: 1/3 of the world's population does NOT live in Israel! Who is God aiming this at? The Jews? No.

Rev 9
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Sinners are found the world around! These are the target of God's wrath.

The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the 70th week. No great calamity happens right at the sounding of this trumpet, but this trumpet is the 3rd woe. Why? It is at the 7th trumpet that ownership of the earth comes back to God. Satan has lost his lease! God now takes back His power, and the effects of this will be the 7 vials of His wrath, which together will be the 3rd woe.

Rev 16
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This is the first vial of God's wrath. Is it limited to Israel? Will the mark of the beast be limited to Israel?

Rev 13
3 ... and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The language here indicates that the beast will have a world-wide influence. Clearly, this is not something that happened in 70 AD.

Rev 16
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

This, perhaps, is limited, for it says the 'seat" of the beast, which will undoubtedly be Jerusalem. However, it says "his kingdom" so this again may mean a large portion of the earth.

Rev 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Did this river dry up in 70 AD? If so, Josephus was silent! However, this was prophecied to be at the "end" and we are not yet at the "end." Jesus has not yet returned, His Kingdom in Jerusalem is not set up, and no one has seen Him!

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

This is the preparation for the great battle of Armageddon. God calls the nations of the world together and they become bird feed.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

How interesting, after the notice of the preparations for the great battle, Jesus reminds us that He will come as a thief! Did Titus come as a thief? NO! This is a prophecy of Jesus the Christ, coming back to earth, to be seen physically by human beings: "every eye will see Him."

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Hense the title, "battle of Armageddon." This battle is still ahead of us, since Jesus has not yet returned.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This then, is the end of the 70th week of Daniel. What happens at this vial?

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

It is clear that these events never happened in 70 AD!

Coop

 

[preterist]

"Day of the Lord."

What does it mean? Was it a "catch all" phrase for the OT, and used for whenever God would chastize a nation for misusing Israel, such as Assyria, then Babylon?

Yes, as the many passages you brought up proved.

Here is a perfect example:

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

You cannot ignore the context:

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

So there is a “day of the Lord†that dealt with the judgment that came upon Babylon in 586BC.

If so, then one MUST explain away the prophecy of Joel 2, and the prophecy of Isaiah 2, that point exactly to the 6th seal of Revelation. These verses on the 6th seal, were written in 95 AD, literally hundreds of years after Joel and Isaiah wrote. Please note these words:


Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Compare with:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Were these just "figures of speech" with no meaning?

Yes they are figures of speech and of course they have meanings. Notice how the OT Prophet described the destruction of Babylon by the Medes:


Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Here is a description of the judgment on Egypt:

Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

The Hebrew mind would understand these idioms as Sir Isaac Newton states:

"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

If so, how could they be signs of a coming event, as God meant for them to be? No, the Holy Spirit is telling the readers, that when they see these signs in the sun and moon, that soon after, would come this time called "the Day of the Lord." It would start soon after the 6th seal was broken. Now look at Isaiah:

Isa. 2
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Now compare with the 6th seal:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;...
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There can be no doubt that John is writing about the fulfillment of both the Joel and Isaiah prophecy. Both of these prophecies mention the "day of the Lord."

I dealt with this in the last post. I will do so again.

You keep leaving out Jesus’ quotation of this prophecy a direct quote of Hosea 10:8:

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Here is what Adam Clarke says:

Luk 23:30 -
Mountains, fall on us - As this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, and as the same expressions are used, Rev_6:16, Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that the whole of that chapter may relate to the same event.

John Gill says this:

Luk 23:30 - Then shall they begin to say,.... The Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions read, "then shall ye begin to say"; the tribulation being so great, as never was the like since the creation of the world, nor never will be to the end of it; and being so sore pressed with the sword and famine; with the enemy without, and divisions, robberies, and murders within; and their miseries being inexpressible, and intolerable, they will seek to go into the holes of the rocks, and caves of the earth, as is prophesied of them, Isa_2:19 and as Josephus says, many of them did, when the city was taken; and, like those in Hos_10:8 will say, "to the mountains fall on us, and to the hills cover us"; will choose rather that the mountains and hills round about Jerusalem, should fall upon them, and they be buried under the ruins of them, than live in such terrible distress, or fall into the hands of their enemies! Compare with this Rev_6:15.


Luke 23, Is. 2, Rev 6, and Hos.10 all speak of the same event! They all deal with the judgment on the Jews.

We will show this in Revelation.

Who is we? From whom are you quoting?

From the book of Daniel, we see that the abomination event would be in the "midst" of the week:

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

The HE of verse 27 is the Messiah of verse 26. He confirmed the covenant:

Rom 15:8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.

It was confirmed with “manyâ€Â:

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

We see than, that in some future "week" or "seven" that an event will split the week into two parts. This event will be the ceasing of the daily sacrifice, and the abomination.

Did this come to pass, as Daniel said? Yes.

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

The "his" here was Antiochus Epiphanes. He did indeed stop the daily sacrifice,and did indeed perform an abomination.

Of course there is one major problem with identifying Dan. 9:27 with the events of Antiochus. Daniel 9 deals with the last week of the 70:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

So how can Daniel 9 be fulfilled in Dan. 11?

Now, was this the complete end of the prophecy given by Daniel? No, this prophecy in Daniel had a second reference, meaning that it did refer to the events of Antiochus Epiphanes,

No it didn’t. Unless the author of this piece believes the 70th week of Daniel occurred in the 2nd century BC. His entire argument is now moot.

Dan 12
Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

From verse 2, we see that Daniel is speaking of a resurrection. Did Daniel or the other OT saints rise from the dead in 70 AD?

Actually before 70AD:

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.

Matt 24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So the end comes when the Gospel is preached to all nations? OK:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
Rom 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.

Maybe this is why Peter proclaimed the end of all things was at hand:

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Spurgeon:

On Matthew 24:15-21 , the Abomination of Desolation
"This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215.)

Let's look and see what Jesus said would be after this abomination event:

Mat 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Why flee to the Mountains if this is a world-wide destruction???

Adam Clarke:

Mat 24:16 -
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please notice that Daniel said something almost the same in 12:1: "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

CH Spurgeon:

"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

Daniel speaks further of this time of trouble:

Dan 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7 speaks of four Beasts:

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Most commentators agree with Gill as to who these Beasts were:

Dan 7:3 - And four great beasts came up from the sea,.... Which are afterwards interpreted of four kings or kingdoms, Dan_7:17, which rose up in the world, not at once, but successively, and out of the sea or world, through the commotions and agitations of it; and these are the four monarchies, Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and Roman; compared to "beasts", because of the rapine and violence, cruelty, oppression, and tyranny, by which they were obtained, set up, supported, and maintained; and to "great ones", being not like single separate kingdoms, as the kingdom of Israel, and the like, but consisting of many kingdoms and nations, and so like beasts of an enormous size:

It was the during the time of the fourth Beast Rome that Daniels prophecies would be fulfilled.

Dan 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What is the “power of the Holy People�

Studying Revelation, we see that John also wrote of this time, in 95 AD, after the terrors of 70 AD:

Still waiting for proof of a 95AD date.

It seems you have given up on a one on one discussion and resorted to paste and copy. The entire article/book is moot with one verse:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

 

[lecoop]

(All quotes from Preterist)
Preterist said

Yes, as the many passages you brought up proved.

Here is a perfect example:

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

You cannot ignore the context:

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

So there is a “day of the Lord†that dealt with the judgment that came upon Babylon in 586BC.

Sorry, but God, knowing all time as we know the present, is well able to include second references in prophecies, just as He did here in Isa. 13. Yes, I agree that He was speaking of Babylon, but for a moment He was looking forward to the end of this age, and to another "day of the Lord."

Yes they are figures of speech and of course they have meanings. Notice how the OT Prophet described the destruction of Babylon by the Medes:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Let's look at these verses:

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Were the Meads not "sinners?" Were the Babylons not "sinners?" When Assyria was overtaken by Babylon, it was "sinners" that did it. When Babylon was taken by the Meads, it was "sinners" that did it. On the other hand, today, we have saints, and we have sinners. God will remove the saints at the rapture of the church, and sinners will be left. This part of this prophecy is looking forward in time to the 70th week of Daniel, still in our future. John confirms that the sun will be dark, and the moon will appear blood red some time soon in our future, as a warning that the "day of the Lord" will soon start. Did you never read Soloman, where he said "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun?" If there was a "day of the Lord" then, there will be a "day of the Lord" in our future. Is there evil in the world today? More than ever before! Are there wicked today? More than ever before. After the battle of Armageddon, man, the male of the species, will be very rare! Most men will be killed during the battle of Armageddon, and the 70th week. When is the "day of His fierce anger?" John speaks much of the wrath of God, pointing to a time yet in our future.

as Sir Isaac Newton states:

There was very little revelation knowledge of God's word back in Isaac Newton's day. He was just a hundred years or so past the dark ages!

I dealt with this in the last post. I will do so again.

You keep leaving out Jesus’ quotation of this prophecy a direct quote of Hosea 10:8:

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

And He said something very similar in reference to the 70th week of Daniel:

Mat 24
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Your text proves nothing! A few people fled in 70 AD. Many will flee in the future.

Here is what Adam Clarke says:

Luk 23:30 -
Mountains, fall on us - As this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, and as the same expressions are used, Rev_6:16, Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that the whole of that chapter may relate to the same event.


John Gill says this:

These two learned gentlemen can be wrong, just as you can be wrong. How did Adam Clarke know this? He guessed, and guessed wrong, as John wrote after these events happened.

Luke 23, Is. 2, Rev 6, and Hos.10 all speak of the same event! They all deal with the judgment on the Jews.

I agree, except for the Hosea verse, but the final judgement, the final week (Daniel's 70th week) is yet in their future.

Quote: lecoop
We will show this in Revelation.

Who is we? From whom are you quoting?

Sorry, I was meaning me, myself and I! I should have said "I." I was not quoting from anywhere but the bible.

The HE of verse 27 is the Messiah of verse 26. He confirmed the covenant:

Rom 15:8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.

It was confirmed with “manyâ€Â:

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

There is no doubt that Jesus created a new covenant: our bibles all have a "New Testament." However, this is not what Daniel was referring to. The "he" in verse 27 must refer back to verse 26. Who is in verse 26?

...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

Of course this is referring to Titus, the leader of the Roman Empire at the time. He is the one that destroyed the city and the temple. The "he" in verse 27 will be the leader of the "revived" Roman Empire in our near future.

Of course there is one major problem with identifying Dan. 9:27 with the events of Antiochus. Daniel 9 deals with the last week of the 70:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

So how can Daniel 9 be fulfilled in Dan. 11?

I did not identify Dan 9:27 with Antiochus; I identified some of chapter 11 with Antiochus. Dan 9:27 is speaking of a future "he" that will be a leader of much of the same land area as the ancient Roman Empire, as seen here:

Rev 13
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The leopard, of course, refers back to Alexander the Great. The bear to the Meads, and the lion to Babylon. Rome eventually took over all the land area of these ancient kingdoms. Of course, Titus would fit this discription, except for one thing: he died a long time ago, and will not be the beast of Revelation.

Quote: lecoop
Now, was this the complete end of the prophecy given by Daniel? No, this prophecy in Daniel had a second reference, meaning that it did refer to the events of Antiochus Epiphanes,


No it didn’t. Unless the author of this piece believes the 70th week of Daniel occurred in the 2nd century BC. His entire argument is now moot.

Of course Daniel's prophecy had a second reference, first to Antiochus, then to the reference Jesus made, quoting from Daniel, and referring it to the time of the end, still future to us. Why is a "second reference" so hard to believe? Did you not notice what Jesus did here?

Luke 4
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus ended His quote from Isaiah here, and said that this scripture was being fulfilled right then, in their ears! However, look at what Jesus did not quote from Isaiah:

...and the day of vengeance of our God;...

One OT prophecy, one part for one time, that Jesus said was fulfilled in their ears, but the next phrase for a totally different time! Jesus could not quote the next phrase, for that would not be fulfilled until the prophecies of John would be fulfilled - still in our future.

Quote lecoop
From verse 2, we see that Daniel is speaking of a resurrection. Did Daniel or the other OT saints rise from the dead in 70 AD?


Actually before 70AD:

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.

Is this the best you could do? Paul was quoting from the OT about the resurrection, not proclaiming a resurrection!

So the end comes when the Gospel is preached to all nations? OK:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
Rom 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.

Maybe this is why Peter proclaimed the end of all things was at hand:

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

And yet, the end, as shown in Revelation, has not yet come. We have to take this verse in context. Notice what Jesus said:

Mat 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The context is Rev chapters 11-13:

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, ...

By the way, what is the "end" that Jesus was referring to? It will be when He returns, and every eye will see Him, as shown by John in Rev. 19. Did you notice that before He comes, every human on the planet will hear, in their own language?

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

God in His great mercy, has MUCH patience for the harvest, and was willing to wait.

Spurgeon:

On Matthew 24:15-21 , the Abomination of Desolation
"This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215.)

He had a right to his opinion. He was wrong. Here is why they fled:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The abomination spoken of by Daniel, and then Jesus, has not yet happened.

Why flee to the Mountains if this is a world-wide destruction???

Did you not read?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Where have we seen this 'wings of an eagle" before?

Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

God gave them manna to eat, and kept them protected, just as he will the remnant that will flee in the future, when the beast of Revelation performs the abomination.

Adam Clarke:

Mat 24:16 -
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished.


CH Spurgeon:

"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

There can be no doubt that some in Jerusalem, probably the Christians, remembered what Jesus said about the armies surrounding Jerusalem, and fled. Most of the rest died. Obviously, Spurgeon did not see the Holocaust.

It was the during the time of the fourth Beast Rome that Daniels prophecies would be fulfilled.

Your opinion. I do not share it. However, the beast of Revelation will be ruling over the same land areas.

What is the “power of the Holy People�

I can only guess. Those in Israel today, have great faith in their ability to fight and do warfare. How many are actually trusting in God? How many know that Jesus is their messiah? God will put them into a position where they have nothing left - but to call out on God! What will happen to those living now in Israel? How many will flee to the mountians when the beast comes to the temple? Only those that flee will survive.

Still waiting for proof of a 95AD date.

Still waiting on proof of the 60 AD date.

It seems you have given up on a one on one discussion and resorted to paste and copy. The entire article/book is moot with one verse:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Sorry, no cut and paste, except scriptures. I created this masterpiece! I guess you still don't understand God's use of this word, "shortly." Perhaps you can ask Jesus about it when He comes?

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

[quote:4b002]as Sir Isaac Newton states:

There was very little revelation knowledge of God's word back in Isaac Newton's day. He was just a hundred years or so past the dark ages! [/quote:4b002]
Heh, he had acces to the very same scripture as we do, read everything from the Hebrew and Greek and performed his own interpretations. I think I trust him more than I do over many contemporaries.

Sorry, no cut and paste, except scriptures. I created this masterpiece! I guess you still don't understand God's use of this word, "shortly." Perhaps you can ask Jesus about it when He comes?

Or perhaps you can tell us so we don't have to guess.

Do me a favor? Pret actually has been fairly cordial in this discussion between the two of you. Lets not taint that with comments like the one above.

Thanks.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.

 

[lecoop]

Or perhaps you can tell us so we don't have to guess.

Do me a favor? Pret actually has been fairly cordial in this discussion between the two of you. Lets not taint that with comments like the one above.

Thanks.

Vic, you are absolutely right! Preterist has been very cordial, and I congratulate him on a job very well done! Good Job, preterist! I appreciate the effort you put into your answers. :-D (I just disagree with them!) (Perfect place for a rolling on the floor, laughing rollie! : -))) )

I am convinced, even though it has been 2000 years, God still looks at it as "shortly."

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Vic, you have been very silent on this - any comments?

Coop

 

[preterist]

Sorry, but God, knowing all time as we know the present, is well able to include second references in prophecies, just as He did here in Isa. 13. Yes, I agree that He was speaking of Babylon, but for a moment He was looking forward to the end of this age, and to another "day of the Lord."

Based on what?? Why do you assume God is pointing to another fulfillment?

If He was speaking of Babylon as you now agree, then you must now also believe verse 10 was fulfilled:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Why should we assume NT writers had a different meaning in mind that what the OT prophets did. I say they did not, the burden of proof is on you to prove the NT writers had a different kind of fulfillment in mind.

It is also up to you to show that God had another fulfillment in mind.

Let's look at these verses:

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Were the Meads not "sinners?" Were the Babylons not "sinners?" When Assyria was overtaken by Babylon, it was "sinners" that did it. When Babylon was taken by the Meads, it was "sinners" that did it. On the other hand, today, we have saints, and we have sinners. God will remove the saints at the rapture of the church, and sinners will be left. This part of this prophecy is looking forward in time to the 70th week of Daniel, still in our future.

You cannot rip the passage out of its historical context. The context is Babylon.

John confirms that the sun will be dark, and the moon will appear blood red some time soon in our future, as a warning that the "day of the Lord" will soon start.

Define “soonâ€Â.

Did you never read Soloman, where he said "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun?" If there was a "day of the Lord" then, there will be a "day of the Lord" in our future.

There was a “day of the Lord†in the future of the NT writers. It was fulfilled in the judgment on Old Covenant Israel in AD70, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Here comes John( the Elijah to come) on the scene:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jesus confirms it:

Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
Mat 23:35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


Paul confirms it:

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
1Th 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

There was very little revelation knowledge of God's word back in Isaac Newton's day. He was just a hundred years or so past the dark ages!

Wow!

And He said something very similar in reference to the 70th week of Daniel:

Mat 24
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Your text proves nothing! A few people fled in 70 AD. Many will flee in the future.

Might want to read Josephus.

These two learned gentlemen can be wrong, just as you can be wrong.

But not you??? I found out I was wrong, then I became a preterist.

Quote:
Luke 23, Is. 2, Rev 6, and Hos.10 all speak of the same event! They all deal with the judgment on the Jews.



I agree, except for the Hosea verse, but the final judgement, the final week (Daniel's 70th week) is yet in their future.

You agree that Luke 23, Is 2 and Rev 6 all speak of the same event?

There is no doubt that Jesus created a new covenant: our bibles all have a "New Testament." However, this is not what Daniel was referring to.

How do you know?

There is no doubt that Jesus created a new covenant: our bibles all have a "New Testament." However, this is not what Daniel was referring to. The "he" in verse 27 must refer back to verse 26. Who is in verse 26?

...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

Of course this is referring to Titus, the leader of the Roman Empire at the time. He is the one that destroyed the city and the temple.

You are very confusing. First you say the 70th week of Daniel is in our future, then turn around and say some of the events of Daniel’s 70 weeks were fulfilled in the 1st century.

1. the final week (Daniel's 70th week) is yet in their future.

2....the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; Of course this is referring to Titus, the leader of the Roman Empire at the time.

I did not identify Dan 9:27 with Antiochus; I identified some of chapter 11 with Antiochus.

You did in fact say Dan 9:27 was fulfilled in Daniel 11:

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We see than, that in some future "week" or "seven" that an event will split the week into two parts. This event will be the ceasing of the daily sacrifice, and the abomination.

Did this come to pass, as Daniel said? Yes.

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

The "his" here was Antiochus Epiphanes. He did indeed stop the daily sacrifice,and did indeed perform an abomination.

Why is a "second reference" so hard to believe? Did you not notice what Jesus did here?

Luke 4
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus ended His quote from Isaiah here, and said that this scripture was being fulfilled right then, in their ears! However, look at what Jesus did not quote from Isaiah:

...and the day of vengeance of our God;...

One OT prophecy, one part for one time, that Jesus said was fulfilled in their ears, but the next phrase for a totally different time!

This is not an example of double-fulfillment. Unless you believe verse 19 will be fulfilled again. This is a verse futurist use to prove it is justifiable to insert a gap in-between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

Is this the best you could do? Paul was quoting from the OT about the resurrection, not proclaiming a resurrection!

I could do much better, but you don’t seem to grasp the preterist views concerning these simplest of matters, it would require much more time to explain resurrection.

Why is Paul quoting that verse?

And yet, the end, as shown in Revelation, has not yet come.

That is because you are looking for a different “end†than the NT writers were speaking of.

We have to take this verse in context. Notice what Jesus said:

Mat 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And as I pointed out, Paul said this was fulfilled.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Also fulfilled.

Quote:
Spurgeon:

On Matthew 24:15-21 , the Abomination of Desolation
"This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215.)


He had a right to his opinion. He was wrong. Here is why they fled:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The abomination spoken of by Daniel, and then Jesus, has not yet happened.

So you do not believe Matt 24 and Luke 21 speak of the same events?

Did you not read?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Where have we seen this 'wings of an eagle" before?

Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

God gave them manna to eat, and kept them protected, just as he will the remnant that will flee in the future, when the beast of Revelation performs the abomination.

When the Roman army began to surround Jerusalem those Christians who heeded the words of Jesus fled and went to Pella during the 3 and a half year siege on the city.

Gill:

And let them which are in the midst of it; either of Judea, as the preceding clause seems to direct the sense; or in Jerusalem, and which indeed was in the midst of Judea; and this sense is favoured by the Persic version, which renders it, "within the city"; let them go out of it, as the Christians did to Pella, Mount Libanus, and other places:

Thus fulfilling Rev 12.

There can be no doubt that some in Jerusalem, probably the Christians, remembered what Jesus said about the armies surrounding Jerusalem, and fled. Most of the rest died. Obviously, Spurgeon did not see the Holocaust.

Perhaps Spurgeon understood the context of the judgment. It was a judgment on Messiah rejecting and Messiah killing Jews.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

The Holocaust has no bearing on the Olivet Discourse or prophecy at all.

Your opinion. I do not share it. However, the beast of Revelation will be ruling over the same land areas.

Then you add a beast that Daniel knows nothing about. A revived Roman Empire is not found in scripture.

Quote:
What is the “power of the Holy People�


I can only guess. Those in Israel today, have great faith in their ability to fight and do warfare.

The power of the Holy people in the context of Daniel was their Temple worship, not their fighter jets. Their Temple worship and all it meant was destroyed in AD70.

Still waiting on proof of the 60 AD date.

My proof can be found in the book I mentioned, “Before Jerusalem Fell†by Kenneth Gentry. It looks at all the internal and external evidence for both the early and late dates. It was the first subject I dealt with when considering the move from dispie land to preterism. What I found, to my surprise, was the lack of evidence for a late date. The late date view is traced almost exclusively to one confusing statement by Irenaeus.

Now your evidence?

Sorry, no cut and paste, except scriptures. I created this masterpiece!

Well I must say you did a fine job. It is wrong but still a fine job.

I guess you still don't understand God's use of this word, "shortly." Perhaps you can ask Jesus about it when He comes?

Please educate me. What did Jesus “really†mean when He said shortly? Since you seem to know the secret code, what did Jesus “really†mean when He said the “time was at hand�

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

And what did He really mean when He said “do not seal up not the wordsâ€Â:

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.

Did He mean don’t seal them up because they are still at least 2000 years away?

tim_from_pa
123 Christian Regular

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.

On a horse?

 

[Zero Link]

I notice how noone quoted on coop saying:

Rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Coop has a very good point. But i am still wondering. Who is "her" in that quote?

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

So you do not believe Matt 24 and Luke 21 speak of the same events?

Yes and no. When Titus came, he surrounded the city, then withdrew for a time, then came back. When the Christians saw the city surrounded, they knew to flee, while the armies were withdrawn. Yet it is almost certain that the beast of Revelation 13 will once again surround Jerusalem with armies. It is certain that he will commit another abomination of desolation.

Did you ever wonder why Luke's version of the Olivet discourse differs a bit here, from Matthew's? (Of course the Holy Spirit was the author of both.) I am convinced that the HS had Luke so write so that the christians in 70 AD would see the surrounding armies and flee the city. If they had waited for the temple to be destroyed, they would not have been able to leave.

Yet I still believe that both Luke and Jesus were writing about the end of this age, also. We are back to "double references."

When the Roman army began to surround Jerusalem those Christians who heeded the words of Jesus fled and went to Pella during the 3 and a half year siege on the city.

Gill:

And let them which are in the midst of it; either of Judea, as the preceding clause seems to direct the sense; or in Jerusalem, and which indeed was in the midst of Judea; and this sense is favoured by the Persic version, which renders it, "within the city"; let them go out of it, as the Christians did to Pella, Mount Libanus, and other places:

Thus fulfilling Rev 12.

Right! I agree with your first sentence: it was not seeing the "abomination" as in Matthew 24 that caused them to flee: they fled when they saw the armies surrounding the city.

But did you notice who fled? Both you and Gill said that it was the Christians that fled. Sorry, but this does not fulfill Rev 12! Was it the church that gave birth to the Christ? No, of course not: it was Israel.

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Now, who is it that will flee into the wilderness? It will be Israelites that are NOT born again believers. They will not become believers until they see Jesus coming back, and see where the nails pierced him. If John were speaking of Christians, he would surely have used a different word here, like "saints." (John used "saints" 13 times in His book)

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Does Josephus mention a flood in 70 AD?

Did Titus go after those that fled the city?

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Did the Christians pierce Him? Of course not! It was Jews that turned Him over to be crucified. And it will be Jews (Israelites) (the remnant that fled to the wilderness) that will see Him when He comes.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

Quote: lecoop
Sorry, but God, knowing all time as we know the present, is well able to include second references in prophecies, just as He did here in Isa. 13. Yes, I agree that He was speaking of Babylon, but for a moment He was looking forward to the end of this age, and to another "day of the Lord."


Based on what?? Why do you assume God is pointing to another fulfillment?

If He was speaking of Babylon as you now agree, then you must now also believe verse 10 was fulfilled:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Why should we assume NT writers had a different meaning in mind that what the OT prophets did. I say they did not, the burden of proof is on you to prove the NT writers had a different kind of fulfillment in mind.

It is also up to you to show that God had another fulfillment in mind.

It really does not make much difference to us now, if the sun turned dark then (ancient Babylon) or not, or in 70 AD or not, for it surely will turn dark at the sixth seal, sometime in our future.

Why do you assume God is pointing to another fulfillment?

Because the 70 AD events do not begin to fulfill what John has written in Revelation. Most of the book of Revelation shows that John was speaking of another fulfillment. Case in point? You idea of what fulfilled chapter 12.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

But not you??? I found out I was wrong, then I became a preterist.

Perhaps you were hasty! I found out I was right, and stayed a futurist!
: -))

Preterist said

Here comes John( the Elijah to come) on the scene:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

In fact, I agree with you on John. He did fulfill the prophecies of Malachi about Elijah returning.

You agree that Luke 23, Is 2 and Rev 6 all speak of the same event?

I was in error there: I guess I thought it was Luk 21. I believe that Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luk 21 and Rev 6 are related to the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus comment in Luke 23 was probably related to AD 70, but may well have a double reference to the 70th week, as Jerusalem will once again be under the "sword."

Quote: lecoop
[quote:6bbbf]There is no doubt that Jesus created a new covenant: our bibles all have a "New Testament." However, this is not what Daniel was referring to. The "he" in verse 27 must refer back to verse 26. Who is in verse 26?

...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

Of course this is referring to Titus, the leader of the Roman Empire at the time. He is the one that destroyed the city and the temple.

You are very confusing. First you say the 70th week of Daniel is in our future, then turn around and say some of the events of Daniel’s 70 weeks were fulfilled in the 1st century.

1. the final week (Daniel's 70th week) is yet in their future.

2....the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; Of course this is referring to Titus, the leader of the Roman Empire at the time.[/quote:6bbbf]


What Titus did on 70 AD was not related to Daniel's 70th week. That is your idea. The 70th week is still in their future.

Quote: lecoop
I did not identify Dan 9:27 with Antiochus; I identified some of chapter 11 with Antiochus.


You did in fact say Dan 9:27 was fulfilled in Daniel 11:

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We see than, that in some future "week" or "seven" that an event will split the week into two parts. This event will be the ceasing of the daily sacrifice, and the abomination.

Did this come to pass, as Daniel said? Yes.

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

The "his" here was Antiochus Epiphanes. He did indeed stop the daily sacrifice,and did indeed perform an abomination.

I stand corrected. Yes, Antiochus did indeed fulfill Daniel's prophecy of the abomination event. But, since you brought it up, this is a perfect example of a "second reference!" Thank you! You see, even though Antiochus did fulfill this prophecy, there will yet be one more time that it will be fulfilled. Jesus referred back to Daniel's abomination event, relating to to and end time event, and He did this, about 200 years after Antiochus descrated the temple, clearly showing that Daniel's prophecy had two fulfilments.

This is not an example of double-fulfillment. Unless you believe verse 19 will be fulfilled again. This is a verse futurist use to prove it is justifiable to insert a gap in-between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

I stand corrected.

That is because you are looking for a different “end†than the NT writers were speaking of.

Either that, or we are speaking of two different "ends."

Then you add a beast that Daniel knows nothing about. A revived Roman Empire is not found in scripture.

How do you know? Are there not people still living in these same land areas?

Well I must say you did a fine job. It is wrong but still a fine job.

Wow! An unexpected compliment! Thanks, Preterist! You did well also.

Please educate me. What did Jesus “really†mean when He said shortly? Since you seem to know the secret code, what did Jesus “really†mean when He said the “time was at hand�

We still don't know for sure, for all that Jesus prophesied has not yet happend!

Quote:
tim_from_pa
123 Christian Regular

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.


On a horse?

Ha ha ha! Very good!

Coop

 

[preterist]

Preterist said
Quote:
So you do not believe Matt 24 and Luke 21 speak of the same events?



Yes and no. When Titus came, he surrounded the city, then withdrew for a time, then came back. When the Christians saw the city surrounded, they knew to flee, while the armies were withdrawn. Yet it is almost certain that the beast of Revelation 13 will once again surround Jerusalem with armies. It is certain that he will commit another abomination of desolation.

Which prophecies have double meanings and who decides? Why stop at double fulfillment, why not triple or quadruple fulfillments? Perhaps Jesus is just one fulfillment of a yet greater Messiah to come? Where does it end? Anytime we come to a prophecy that doesn’t fit our scheme, we just declare it has a double fulfillment. I guess we will just disagree on this point and let each reader decide it that is a legitimate method of interpretation. I’ll leave it with this:


Moses Stuart
"For these and such-like reasons, the scheme of attaching a double sense to the Scriptures is inadmissible. It sets afloat all the fundamental principles of interpretation by which we arrive at established conviction and certainty and casts us on the boundless ocean of imagination and conjecture without rudder or compass." (Stuart on the Hebrews, Excurs. xx.)

Did you ever wonder why Luke's version of the Olivet discourse differs a bit here, from Matthew's?

You will find this occurs throughout the Gospels on many subjects. The question remains are they speaking of the same event or not? If so, then you harmonize them, if not then you don’t try to prove they speak of the same event.

I am convinced that the HS had Luke so write so that the christians in 70 AD would see the surrounding armies and flee the city.

Is this a different event than Matthew 24?

Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

Yet I still believe that both Luke and Jesus were writing about the end of this age, also.

So they are speaking of the same event?

But did you notice who fled? Both you and Gill said that it was the Christians that fled. Sorry, but this does not fulfill Rev 12! Was it the church that gave birth to the Christ? No, of course not: it was Israel.

Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Now, who is it that will flee into the wilderness? It will be Israelites that are NOT born again believers. They will not become believers until they see Jesus coming back, and see where the nails pierced him. If John were speaking of Christians, he would surely have used a different word here, like "saints." (John used "saints" 13 times in His book)

The original reference was “womanâ€Â, so he repeats it was the “womanâ€Â. There would be no reason to call them saints in this context. Secondly the early Church were mostly Jews. Why do you assume this are unbelieving Israelites somewhere in the future? When you say “Israelites†what do you mean?

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Does Josephus mention a flood in 70 AD?

Are you expecting a literal flood in the future? If so you must be expecting a literal serpent casting the flood out of his mouth.

Let the OT help you interpret the NT. Especially when it come to prophecy and even more when it comes to the book of Revelation:

Isa 8:7 now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the River, strong and many, even the king of Assyria and all his glory: and it shall come up over all its channels, and go over all its banks;
Isa 8:8 and it shall sweep onward into Judah; it shall overflow and pass through; it shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of its wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth.

Jer 46:7 Who is this that riseth up like the Nile, whose waters toss themselves like the rivers?
Jer 46:8 Egypt riseth up like the Nile, and his waters toss themselves like the rivers: and he saith, I will rise up, I will cover the earth; I will destroy cities and the inhabitants thereof.

Did the Christians pierce Him? Of course not! It was Jews that turned Him over to be crucified.

Yes and it was Old Covenant Jews who did so! Do not lay the blame on Jews of today. So it would be the Old Covenant Jews who would see Him:


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

So is it your view that Jews today are the one who pierced Jesus? I guess so.

It really does not make much difference to us now, if the sun turned dark then (ancient Babylon) or not, or in 70 AD or not, for it surely will turn dark at the sixth seal, sometime in our future.

Except the sixth seal refers to AD70.

Because the 70 AD events do not begin to fulfill what John has written in Revelation. Most of the book of Revelation shows that John was speaking of another fulfillment. Case in point? You idea of what fulfilled chapter 12.

We are back to if it isn’t fulfilled the way you were taught or believe then it just isn’t fulfilled.

Preterist said
Quote:
Here comes John( the Elijah to come) on the scene:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


In fact, I agree with you on John. He did fulfill the prophecies of Malachi about Elijah returning.

Then is this an AD70 fulfillment:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Or is John’s time completely irrelevant to its fulfillment?

What Titus did on 70 AD was not related to Daniel's 70th week. That is your idea.

Then why did you say this:

the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; Of course this is referring to Titus, the leader of the Roman Empire at the time.

You keep flip-flopping. It seems on plain reading you see the obvious(an AD70 fulfillment) yet when it is pointed out where that thinking would logically take you, you then claim it is false and not your idea.

So is any of the 70th week of Daniel in the past? Yes or no?

Yes, Antiochus did indeed fulfill Daniel's prophecy of the abomination event. But, since you brought it up, this is a perfect example of a "second reference!"

Here we go again. Ok if Antiochus did indeed fulfill the abomination event of Dan. 9, and since that event was inside the 70th week, then you have the 70th week of Daniel being fulfilled in the 2nd century BC. But you say it will be fulfilled again. Right? But how would the Jews know which is which? The were given a prophecy of 490 years, but your interpretation renders it meaningless.

Jesus referred back to Daniel's abomination event, relating to to and end time event, and He did this, about 200 years after Antiochus descrated the temple, clearly showing that Daniel's prophecy had two fulfilments.

So I guess the 70th week also has two fulfillments. Hey why not make AD70 the second and have a third one in the future?

Quote:
That is because you are looking for a different “end†than the NT writers were speaking of.


Either that, or we are speaking of two different "ends."

What “end†was Peter referring to?

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

Quote:
Then you add a beast that Daniel knows nothing about. A revived Roman Empire is not found in scripture.


How do you know? Are there not people still living in these same land areas?

Then what is the purpose of Daniel telling us of four Kingdoms and Four Beasts if we can add more at anytime? The fact that people still live in the lands that the Bible speaks of is irrelevant and obvious. There are people living where the Garden of Eden was but they are not Adam and Eve.

Quote:
Please educate me. What did Jesus “really†mean when He said shortly? Since you seem to know the secret code, what did Jesus “really†mean when He said the “time was at hand�


We still don't know for sure, for all that Jesus prophesied has not yet happend!

You don’t know?? What kind of answer is that? I guess the only thing you do know is that “shortly†doesn’t mean shortly, and ââ¬Å“at hand†doesn’t mean at hand. If God cannot commnicate to His creation clearly of the "when" of prophecy, why should we expect clarity on the "how" of prophecy.

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

Which prophecies have double meanings and who decides? Why stop at double fulfillment, why not triple or quadruple fulfillments? Perhaps Jesus is just one fulfillment of a yet greater Messiah to come? Where does it end? Anytime we come to a prophecy that doesn’t fit our scheme, we just declare it has a double fulfillment. I guess we will just disagree on this point and let each reader decide it that is a legitimate method of interpretation. I’ll leave it with this:


Moses Stuart
"For these and such-like reasons, the scheme of attaching a double sense to the Scriptures is inadmissible. It sets afloat all the fundamental principles of interpretation by which we arrive at established conviction and certainty and casts us on the boundless ocean of imagination and conjecture without rudder or compass." (Stuart on the Hebrews, Excurs. xx.)

There is and has been in schools of hermeneutics, a means of study called "the law of double reference." You can deny it all you want, and quote references, but I know that you now these double references still exist. Let me give you an example:

Psalm 16
1 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

I seriously doubt that David knew at the moment he wrote these last few verses, that he knew he was writing of the Messiah to come as well of as himself. He undoubted thought he was writing of himself (nitice the personal pronouns). Yet most of the "experts" believe this is a prophecy of Jesus the Christ, and I certainly will not disagree.

Psalms 22 is another great example. David, writing under the instruction of the Holy Spirit, thought he was writing about himself, and was, yet it is another prophecy of Jesus.

Therefore, when I see that the book of Revelation just does not "fit" what happened in 70 AD, I conclude that it is for a time of the future, not the 70 Ad events. When I read of the "day of the Lord," laid out so plainly in the old testament, yet aligning well with Revelation, again I must conclude that this is for a time yet future.

It seems that Preterist has skipped over the post on Revelation.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

[quote:73b5a]Quote: lecoop
I am convinced that the HS had Luke so write so that the christians in 70 AD would see the surrounding armies and flee the city.

Is this a different event than Matthew 24?

Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

Quote: lecoop
Yet I still believe that both Luke and Jesus were writing about the end of this age, also.

So they are speaking of the same event? [/quote:73b5a]

I believe they are both a reference to the "day of the Lord" in our future, since Jesus has not yet returned, and none of what Revelation said would happen when He returns has yet happened. Yet God in His great mercy, knowing that in the future this great calamity would come to Jerusalem, had Luke so write so that those that knew what Jesus said, could and would flee and escape. When comparing Luke 21 with Mat. 24 with Daniel, this verse comes at the midpoint of the 70th week. When studying Revelation, a book written after the fact, in about 95 AD, we see that what John wrote also fits perfectly with the midpoint of the 70th week. John shows us that the abomination event happens on earth when the 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven, and just a few verses later, the "woman" flees into the wilderness, just as Jesus prophecied.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Dating the book of Revelation:

3. Date

An examination of the problem of the date of this writing raises many problems which are by no means easy to solve. Although the main purpose of this book may be considered apart from the question of date, this question is not unimportant in the quest to ascertain the precise historical background. Nor is it entirely irrelevant for arriving at a satisfactory interpretation of the book. The most widely held view is that this Apocalypse was written during the reign of Domitian, more precisely towards the end of that reign, that is, 90-95 AD. Undoubtedly a strong argument in favor of a Domitianic date is the fact that the earliest and weightiest witnesses attest it. Irenaeus is quite specific that the Apocalypse "was seen no such long time ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian" (Adv Her 5.30.3). Since Irenaeus' own connection with Asia Minor and acquaintance with Polycarp (John's disciple) in his youth would give him a good opportunity to receive reliable information on this matter, this evidence must be treated seriously. Later tradition mostly supports Irenaeus' testimony, although there is some evidence for the time of Nero, and even one witness for the time of Claudius, but this was no doubt an error for Nero Claudius. It could be argued that, on the principle that a strong tradition must be allowed to stand unless internal evidence makes it impossible, the Domitianic dating must have the decision in its favor. But there have been some considerable arguments advanced for an earlier date.

http://www.theologywebsite.com/nt/revelation.shtml

AD 95 is the "traditional" date of the book. I see no reason to change it. Of course, those that have a preterist idea of the book, must change it to before 70 AD.

From the Catholic encylopedia:

The Seer himself testifies that the visions he is about to narrate were seen by him whilst in Patmos. "I John . . . was in the island which is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus" (i. 9). Patmos is one of the group of small islands close to the coast of Asia Minor, about twelve geographical miles from Ephesus. Tradition, as Eusebius tells us, has handed down that John was banished to Patmos in the reign of Domitian for the sake of his testimony of God's word (Hist. Eccl., III, 18). He obviously refers to the passage "for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus" (i, 9). It is true that the more probable meaning of this phrase is, "in order to hear the word of God", etc., and not "banished because of the word of God", etc., (cf. i. 2). But it was quite natural that the Seer should have regarded his banishment to Patmos as prearranged by Divine Providence that in the solitude of the island he might hear God's word. The tradition recorded by Eusebius finds confirmation in the words of the Seer describing himself as "a brother and partaker in tribulation" (i, 9). Irenaeus places the Seer's exile in Patmos at the end of Domitian's reign. "Paene sub nostro saeculo ad finem Domitiani imperii" (Adv. Haer., V. 4). The Emperor Domitian reigned A.D. 81-96. In all matters of Joannine tradition Irenaeus deserves exceptional credit. His lifetime bordered upon the Apostolic age and his master, St. Polycarp, had been among the disciples of St. John. Eusebius, chronicling the statement of Irenaeus without any misgivings, adds as the year of the Seer's exile the fourteenth of Domitian's reign. St. Jerome also, without reserve or hesitation, follows the same tradition. "Quarto decimo anno, secundam post Neronem persecutionem movente Domitiano, in Patmos insulam relegatus, scripsit Apocalypsim" (Ex libro de Script. Eccl). Against the united testimony of these three witnesses of tradition the statement of Epiphanius placing the Seer's banishment in the reign of Claudius, A.D. 41-54, appears exceedingly improbable (Haer., li, 12, 33).

 

[preterist]

;;

I seriously doubt that David knew at the moment he wrote these last few verses, that he knew he was writing of the Messiah to come as well of as himself. He undoubted thought he was writing of himself (nitice the personal pronouns). Yet most of the "experts" believe this is a prophecy of Jesus the Christ, and I certainly will not disagree.

Psalms 22 is another great example. David, writing under the instruction of the Holy Spirit, thought he was writing about himself, and was, yet it is another prophecy of Jesus.

David was a “type†of Christ. You see all sorts of types and shadows throughout the OT that find their fulfillment in the NT. However what you are doing is taking NT prophetic passages and trying to force a double meaning on those.

Therefore, when I see that the book of Revelation just does not "fit" what happened in 70 AD, I conclude that it is for a time of the future, not the 70 Ad events.

Then it is not a “double reference†and shouldn’t be argued as such. Perhaps your argument should be the events of AD70 are just a coincidence and have nothing to do with the Olivet Discourse. However in doing so you go against almost all scholarship, preterist and futurists, who recognize that at least a portion of the OD was fulfilled in AD70.

W

hen I read of the "day of the Lord," laid out so plainly in the old testament, yet aligning well with Revelation, again I must conclude that this is for a time yet future.

You mean the OT verses we already went over which you eventually acknowledged were fulfilled in historical events of long ago?

It seems that Preterist has skipped over the post on Revelation.

I don’t feel like doing a running commentary on the entire Book. However I did put it in it’s context (Rev 1:1;3).

I believe they are both a reference to the "day of the Lord" in our future, since Jesus has not yet returned, and none of what Revelation said would happen when He returns has yet happened.

So you should not argue for a “double reference†theory since you believe Matt 24 and Luke 21 were not speaking of nor fulfilled in AD70.

Yet God in His great mercy, knowing that in the future this great calamity would come to Jerusalem, had Luke so write so that those that knew what Jesus said, could and would flee and escape.

So God lead the Jews to believe He was speaking of AD70 in Luke, when in reality it had nothing to do with it? Nice trick.

The most widely held view is that this Apocalypse was written during the reign of Domitian, more precisely towards the end of that reign, that is, 90-95 AD. Undoubtedly a strong argument in favor of a Domitianic date is the fact that the earliest and weightiest witnesses attest it. Irenaeus is quite specific that the Apocalypse "was seen no such long time ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian" (Adv Her 5.30.3).

I mentioned this earlier. You will find that almost all the evidence for the late date is based on this one paragraph. If you do a little research on that you will find many problems with it. They are all documented in “Before Jerusalem Fellâ€Â. By the way, Irenaeus also wrote Jesus lived into His 50’s before being crucified. Do you wish to base a doctrine on that statement?

But there have been some considerable arguments advanced for an earlier date.

Yes ther have.



Philip Schaff (1877)
"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)

Jay E. Adams (1966)
"[the temple still standing in Revelation 11:1 is] unmistakable proof that Revelation was written before 70 A.D." (The Time is at Hand, p. 68).



F.W. Farrar (1886)
"there can be no reasonable doubt respecting the (early) date of the Apocalypse." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 387)

"We cannot accept a dubious expression of the Bishop of Lyons as adequate to set aside an overwhelming weight of evidence, alike external and internal, in proof of the fact that the Apocalypse was written, at the latest, soon after the death of Nero." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 408)

The reason why the early date and mainly contemporary explanation of the book is daily winning fresh adherents among unbiased thinkers of every Church and school, is partly because it rests on so simple and secure a basis, and partly because no other can compete with it. It is indeed the only system which is built on the plain and repeated statements and indications of the Seer himself and the corresponding events are so closely accordant with the symbols as to make it certain that this scheme of interpretation is the only one that can survive. (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 434)



Clement of Alexandria (150-215)
"For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.)

Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)

 

[MrVersatile48]

Bible Millenium

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 357#321357

 

[lecoop]

This thread reminds me of OJ showing at least an attempt to put on those gloves. He at least made it appear that the gloves would not fit. I have. at the very least, made an attempt to show the readers that the events of 70 AD did not fit with what the book of Revelation tells us.

If the events of AD 70 do not fit with what John wrote, and they certainly don't, then what should a reader conclude? Of course that Revelation is speaking of another event. John laid out a very specific prophecy of events with several, 3 1/2 year time increments. If what John wrote had fit the 70 AD events, Josephus would most certainly have shown us this in his writings - ah - that is, if he had even seen John's book! If John had written before the events of 70 AD, as a final warning to those living in Jerusalem, Josephus would certainly have read it.

(10) By prophesying, when spoken of a high priest, Josephus, both here and frequently elsewhere, means no more than consulting God by Urim, which the reader is still to bear in mind upon all occasions. And if St. John, who was contemporary with Josephus, and of the same country, made use of this style, when he says that "Caiaphas being high priest that year, prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation, and not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad,"

(Josephus: CHAPTER 11.

HEREIN IS DECLARED WHAT BEFELL THE SONS OF ELI, THE ARK, AND THE PEOPLE AND HOW ELI HIMSELF DIED MISERABLY. [end note #10])(Emphasis added)

Why then, did not Josephus even mention John's book in his writing? On the other hand, if John wrote in 95 AD, Josephus might not have even had a chance to read it.

(1) I have already observed more than once, that this History of the Jewish War was Josephus's first work, and published about A.D. 75, when he was but thirty-eight years of age; and that when he wrote it, he was not thoroughly acquainted with several circumstances of history from the days of Antiochus Epiphanes, with which it begins, till near his own times, contained in the first and former part of the second book, and so committed many involuntary errors therein. That he published his Antiquities eighteen years afterward, in the thirteenth year of Domitian, A.D. 93, when he was much more completely acquainted with those ancient times, and after he had perused those most authentic histories, the First Book of Maccabees, and the Chronicles of the Priesthood of John Hyrcanus, etc. That accordingly he then reviewed those parts of this work, and gave the public a more faithful, complete, and accurate account of the facts therein related; and honestly corrected the errors he bad before run into.

(Josephus endnotes)

It seems that if John had written in 95 AD, the traditional date, Josephus could not have read it and included anything from it in his writings.

Was there a significant "3 1/2" year period of time in 70 AD?

(5) This was a remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Paneruns. [Tamuz,] A.D. 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, six hundred and six years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease," Daniel 9:27. For from the month of February, A.D. 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half. See Bishop Lloyd's Tables of Chronology, published by Mr. Marshall, on this year. Nor is it to be omitted, what year nearly confirms this duration of the war, that four years before the war begun was somewhat above seven years five months before the destruction of Jerusalem, ch. 5. sect. 3.

(Josephus)

John wrote of exact times: "1260 days," and "42 months." Did this fulfill what John wrote? Probably not; especially not if JOhn wrote in 95 AD!


Concerning the Olivet discourse: does this discourse "fit" with the events of 70 AD? Just about like OJ's gloves!

Mat. 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Would this be after the temple had been torn down, and not one block left placed on another? Is this when the "ye" should flee? Sorry, but at that time, if would have been too late to flee!

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Indeed, there was "great tribulation;" so great that people were eating their own children. But notice that Jesus said "then." Then when? right "after" the abomination event! When did this "great tribulation" take place in 70 AD? It started long before the temple was taken.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

John's account of the above verse:

Rev 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat up on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

Coop