'birthpains' & 'signs of the times'

[MrVersatile48]

Hal Lindsey Returns To http://www.TBN.org - post 2 @ anniversary issue :P

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=

Ian :-D

 

[preterist]

;;

If the events of AD 70 do not fit with what John wrote, and they certainly don't, then what should a reader conclude? Of course that Revelation is speaking of another event. John laid out a very specific prophecy of events with several, 3 1/2 year time increments. If what John wrote had fit the 70 AD events, Josephus would most certainly have shown us this in his writings - ah - that is, if he had even seen John's book! If John had written before the events of 70 AD, as a final warning to those living in Jerusalem, Josephus would certainly have read it.

Why would Josephus read it? He was an unbelieving Jew.

Why then, did not Josephus even mention John's book in his writing? On the other hand, if John wrote in 95 AD, Josephus might not have even had a chance to read it.

Please explain why the events of AD70 are found nowhere in scripture if Revelation was written after AD70.

Was there a significant "3 1/2" year period of time in 70 AD?

Quote:
(5) This was a remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Paneruns. [Tamuz,] A.D. 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, six hundred and six years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease," Daniel 9:27. For from the month of February, A.D. 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half. See Bishop Lloyd's Tables of Chronology, published by Mr. Marshall, on this year. Nor is it to be omitted, what year nearly confirms this duration of the war, that four years before the war begun was somewhat above seven years five months before the destruction of Jerusalem, ch. 5. sect. 3.
(Josephus)

I am puzzled by this. This proves a preterist point that Daniel 9 was about AD70. Do you agree with the above??


"Daniel prophesied and wrote about all this many years ago. Similarly we can read in his writings about the way our people came under the yoke of Roman slavery and how our nation was destroyed by the Romans. All these writings Daniel left by God's command to give to the readers and students of history proof of the great honour God had granted him and to convince the doubters, who close out all possibility of guidance from life, that God still is concerned with the course of history." (Josephus, Antiquities, X.10 and 11. )

Isaac Newton
"And in half a week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease; that is, by the war of the Romans upon the Jews: which war, after some commotions, began in the 13th year of Nero , A.D. 67, in the Spring when Vespasian with an army invaded them; and ended in the second year of Vespasian, A.D. 70, in autumn, September 7 when Titus took the city, having burnt the Temple 27 days before: so that it lasted three years and an half."

Concerning the Olivet discourse: does this discourse "fit" with the events of 70 AD? Just about like OJ's gloves!

Mat. 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

It is clear you believe the Olivet Discourse speaks of the same events of Revelation. As many have pointed out, John’s account of the Olivet Discourse is not found in his Gospel but in Revelation. Therefore if Josephus describes events found in the Olivet Discourse then he must also be speaking of events found in Revelation.


"It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." (Wars, II, XIX, 6,7)

William Whiston (Translator of Josephus - 1737)
"There may another very important, and very providential, reason be here assigned for this strange and foolish retreat of Cestius; which, if Josephus had been now a Christian, he might probably have taken notice of also; and that is, the affording the Jewish Christians in the city an opportunity of calling to mind the prediction and caution given them by Christ about thirty-three years and a half before, that "when they should see the abomination of desolation" [the idolatrous Roman armies, with the images of their idols in their ensigns, ready to lay Jerusalem desolate] "stand where it ought not;" or, "in the holy place;" or, "when they should see Jerusalem any one instance of a more unpolitic, but more providential, compassed with armies;" they should then "flee to the mound conduct than this retreat of Cestius visible during this whole rains." By complying with which those Jewish Christians fled I siege of Jerusalem; which yet was providentially such a "great to the mountains of Perea, and escaped this destruction. See tribulation, as had not been from the beginning of the world to that time; no, Lit. Accompl. of Proph. p. 69, 70. Nor was there, perhaps, nor ever should be."--Ibid. p. 70, 71." (Wars, II, XIX, 6,7)

"Havercamp says here :- "This is a remarkable place; and Tertullian truly says that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods." (Wars of the Jews, VI,VI,1)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Indeed, there was "great tribulation;" so great that people were eating their own children. But notice that Jesus said "then." Then when? right "after" the abomination event! When did this "great tribulation" take place in 70 AD? It started long before the temple was taken.

Using your logic, the false Christs wouldn’t arrive until after the tribulation:

Mat 24:23 `Then if any one may say to you, Lo, here is the Christ! or here! ye may not believe;
Mat 24:24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

According to futurist John Gill it did:

but the son of man himself: just as circumcision is called the sign of circumcision, Rom_4:11 and Christ is sometimes called a sign, Luk_2:34 as is his resurrection from the dead, Mat_12:39 and here the glory and majesty in which he shall come: and it may be observed, that the other evangelists make no mention of the sign, only speak of the son of man, Mar_13:26 and he shall appear, not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance, on the Jewish nation which will be a full sign and proof of his being come: for the sense is, that when the above calamities shall be upon the civil state of that people, and there will be such changes in their ecclesiastical state it will be as clear a point, that Christ is come in the flesh, and that he is also come in his vengeance on that nation, for their rejection and crucifixion him, as if they had seen him appear in person in the heavens.

Mat 24:31 - And he shall send his angels,.... Not the angels, i.e. ministering spirits, so called, not from their nature, but their office, as being sent forth by God and Christ; but men angels, or messengers, the ministers and preachers of the Gospel, whom Christ would call, qualify, and send forth into all the world of the Gentiles, to preach his Gospel, and plant churches there still more, when that at Jerusalem was broken up and dissolved. These are called "angels", because of their mission, and commission from Christ, to preach the Gospel; and because of their knowledge and understanding in spiritual things; and because of their zeal, diligence, and watchfulness,

John Lightfoot says it did:

Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isa_26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign; now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

[And he shall send his angels, etc.] when Jerusalem shall be reduced to ashes, and that wicked nation cut off and rejected, then shall the Son of man send his ministers with the trumpet of the gospel, and they shall gather together his elect of the several nations from the four corners of heaven: so that God shall not want a church.

Albert Barnes thinks it did:

The sign of the Son of man - The “evidence†that he is coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem.

And he shall send his angels - “Angels†signify, literally, “messengers,†Luk_7:24; Luk_9:52. The word is often applied to inanimate objects, or to anything that God employs to rescue his people from danger Psa_104:4; but it most commonly refers to the race of intelligent beings more exalted than man, who are employed often in the work of man’s rescue from ruin, and aiding his salvation, Heb_1:14. In either of these senses it might here refer to deliverance granted to his people in the calamities of Jerusalem.

Adam Clarke thinks it did:

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

He shall send his angels - Τους αγγελους, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.
With a great sound of a trumpet - Or, a loud-sounding trumpet - the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.
Shall gather together his elect - The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord’s prediction, Mat_8:11,Mat_8:12, and Luk_13:28,Luk_13:29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.

On a horse?

Preterist:

I don't understand what you are saying here. what makes you think I believed Jesus would ever return again? I did not say that he shall come again.

By the way, where do you believe Jesus' mortal remains are today? I want your theories on that.

 

[lecoop]

Preterist,

It just came to me that the best argument you could make (and I believe is yet unmade) is this: If John wrote in 95 AD, Jerusalem would have been mostly destroyed. (I would have to re-read Josephus to find out what was left of the city.)

I firmly believe that "that great city" found several times in Revelation, and "mystery Babylon the Great" are both referring to Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was just destroyed, why would John, just a few years later, write of her further destruction?

Coop

 

[preterist]

;

Preterist:

I don't understand what you are saying here. what makes you think I believed Jesus would ever return again? I did not say that he shall come again.

I guess I misunderstood this statement:

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.

By the way, where do you believe Jesus' mortal remains are today? I want your theories on that.

He left no mortal remains.

Preterist,

It just came to me that the best argument you could make (and I believe is yet unmade) is this: If John wrote in 95 AD, Jerusalem would have been mostly destroyed.

I said this in the last post: Please explain why the events of AD70 are found nowhere in scripture if Revelation was written after AD70.

(I would have to re-read Josephus to find out what was left of the city.)

Book 7 chapter 1

1.NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.

Mic 3:12 Therefore, for your sake, Zion is ploughed a field, and Jerusalem is heaps, And the mount of the house is for high places of a forest!

I firmly believe that "that great city" found several times in Revelation, and "mystery Babylon the Great" are both referring to Jerusalem.

The fall of Jerusalem:

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another messenger coming down out of the heaven, having great authority, and the earth was lightened from his glory,
Rev 18:2 and he did cry in might--a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,
Rev 18:3 because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom have all the nations drunk, and the kings of the earth with her did commit whoredom, and merchants of the earth from the power of her revel were made rich.

Believers are warned to flee the city:

Jesus’ words in Luke were fulfilled:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,

Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;
Luk 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.

Notice:

Rev 18:24 and in her blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all those who have been slain on the earth.'

John tells us in Babylon was the blood of the prophets and saints and all who have been slain on the earth. So who is the guilty party? Is it future Jews? Is it future mankind? No, Jesus told us exactly who it was:

Speaking to the scribes and Pharisees:


Mat 23:34 `Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city;
Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar:
Mat 23:36 verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 `Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.

Babylon was Old Covenant Jerusalem. They killed the prophets:

Act 7:52 which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed those who declared before about the coming of the Righteous One, of whom now ye betrayers and murderers have become,

1Th 2:14 for ye became imitators, brethren, of the assemblies of God that are in Judea in Christ Jesus, because such things ye suffered, even ye, from your own countrymen, as also they from the Jews,
1Th 2:15 who did both put to death the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and did persecute us, and God they are not pleasing, and to all men are contrary,
1Th 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them--to the end!

The entire context of Babylon and Revelation is the judgment on the Old Covenant Jews who rejected and killed their messiah. It was that jerusalem that fits in Revelation not some present or future Jerusalem.

If Jerusalem was just destroyed, why would John, just a few years later, write of her further destruction?

Because John wrote prior to her destruction.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Just time to link to 2 full pages where many endtime Bible prophecy elements are each given their own threads..

page 19 - http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=270

page 20 - http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=285

No time to yahoo 1948 almanac

Go 4 it, Lyle!

Ian

 

[tim-from-pa]

I guess I misunderstood this statement (made by Tim-from-pa):

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.

In all honesty, do you think by my making this statement that I was saying Jesus went up into heaven and will come back in like manner?

Why doesn't Jesus have any mortal remains in your opinion? Where is he then?

 

[preterist]

Preterist wrote:


I guess I misunderstood this statement (made by Tim-from-pa):

Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven.


In all honesty, do you think by my making this statement that I was saying Jesus went up into heaven and will come back in like manner?

At this point I have no idea what you were trying to say.

Why doesn't Jesus have any mortal remains in your opinion? Where is he then?

My mortal remains I assume you mean a dead body lying around?


Joh 20:13 And they say to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep?' she saith to them, `Because they took away my Lord, and I have not known where they laid him;'
Joh 20:14 and these things having said, she turned backward, and seeth Jesus standing, and she had not known that it is Jesus.
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;'
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.'
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Where is He now?

At the right hand of the Father?

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Dwelling in His Church?

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In His Throne?


Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Where is He now?

At the right hand of the Father?
...Dwelling in His Church?
...In His Throne?

Proving the fundemental truth of the Christianity.

HE'S ALIVE!

 

[tim-from-pa]

Preterist:

Well, then you do believe Jesus is alive and is living at the right hand of the father in heaven.

Were you first led to believe that I believed he was in heaven and coming back again just because I stated,

"Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven." ?

Or.... should I at least ask, is that what any reasonable person should believe if I made that statement?

 

[preterist]

Were you first led to believe that I believed he was in heaven and coming back again just because I stated,

"Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven." ?

Yes, and unless you are a full-preterist that would be a true assumption.

Or.... should I at least ask, is that what any reasonable person should believe if I made that statement?

I guess. Obviously you are going somewhere with this line of questioning and as much as I like riddles, I’m ready to deal with the eventual point of this.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I guess. Obviously you are going somewhere with this line of questioning and as much as I like riddles, I’m ready to deal with the eventual point of this.

You understood me clearly enough regarding my original statement

"Well, all I say is that Jesus, which is taken up into heaven, shall come in like manner as he went into heaven."

that Jesus was going to return because you quipped "on a horse?". You seemed to have taken a sarcastic view of the idea of his returning. But in reality, I did not say that statement.

I basically cut and pasted the bible passage from Acts 1:11 so that it just sounded like I made the statement.

If you understood me clearly enough, then why not the bible? Why does what I "say" mean that Jesus is coming back again, but when a bible passage said the same thing (which I just plagiarized) all of a sudden it does not mean what it says?

I care not if he returns on a horse, in the clouds or in a Mercedes. Those details expressed in different passages does not nullify the premise stated. The men in white apparel made a simple statement regarding Jesus' ascension which you already testified you believe. So it is not proper exegesis to extrapolate the meaning of "coming in like manner" to mean something symbolic or something that has already happened of sorts. I don't see the resurrected Jesus reigning anywhere. Do you? that's because He did not come back yet. The men's statements were merely stating the facts literally, not allegorical or any other line of interpretation. That is plainly obvious by the context.

 

[preterist]

If you understood me clearly enough, then why not the bible? Why does what I "say" mean that Jesus is coming back again, but when a bible passage said the same thing (which I just plagiarized) all of a sudden it does not mean what it says?

Who is denying that Jesus was to return again?

I basically cut and pasted the bible passage from Acts 1:11 so that it just sounded like I made the statement.

I knew exactly which verse you were referring to. It is used all the time in an attempt to disprove preterism.

So it is not proper exegesis to extrapolate the meaning of "coming in like manner" to mean something symbolic or something that has already happened of sorts.

This is where the horse comes in:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Is His return “in like manner†as His ascension?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

I don't see the resurrected Jesus reigning anywhere.

Perhaps because you are looking for a physical Kingdom.

Perhaps you should let this guy know as well: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/u/ourgodrn.htm

Do you? that's because He did not come back yet.

If He didn't then the NT writers along with Jesus sure misled a lot of people.

If true, then you won’t be with Him upon your death:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Nor do you have salvation yet:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The men's statements were merely stating the facts literally, not allegorical or any other line of interpretation. That is plainly obvious by the context.

Then the question to you is, is the return mentioned in Acts 1 the same as in these verses:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

I say they all speak of the same event and must be interpreted with this in mind, what say you?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Who is denying that Jesus was to return again?

It seemed to me you were. And yes, there is going to be a physical kingdom because Jesus will one day be given the throne of King David, which is an earthly (not heavenly) throne. It matters not what type of body Jesus now has. He can and will still manifest himself because all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. This is in agreement with what the men in white apparel said in Acts 1:11. What are these clouds? Check out Hebrews 12:1.

If He didn't then the NT writers along with Jesus sure misled a lot of people.

Just when then is the actual return date? If his ascension was an event, so is the returning in like manner. There is no Jesus ruling from the throne of David right now. The NT writers, particularly Paul, did not teach that Jesus already returned. Paul's writings are hard to understand, so some people wrest his writings, like the other scriptures to their destruction. They are no more born again than the chair they are sitting on as I would say.

 

[bkhoward2001]

The End Times are Now!

I am sorry Preterist but you are wrong.... the End Times spoken of in the bible have not already occurred but are rapidly approaching. And when I say approaching, I am talking in the next year or two, not hundreds or thousands of years away. From the signs that are occuring today, I would say the final seven years are on course to begin in 2007 or perhaps 2008.

Also, for those of you who hold out for the notion of pre-tribulation rapture, I am afraid you need to read scripture again. The children of God will not be raptured until the end of the final seven years. So get ready for a rocky ride. And prepare!

 

[tim-from-pa]

Re: The End Times are Now!

I am sorry Preterist but you are wrong.... the End Times spoken of in the bible have not already occurred but are rapidly approaching. And when I say approaching, I am talking in the next year or two, not hundreds or thousands of years away. From the signs that are occuring today, I would say the final seven years are on course to begin in 2007 or perhaps 2008.

Also, for those of you who hold out for the notion of pre-tribulation rapture, I am afraid you need to read scripture again. The children of God will not be raptured until the end of the final seven years. So get ready for a rocky ride. And prepare!

I'll consider this your opinion since date-setting is somewhat of a dangerous thing to do. As long as you do not dogmatically say this. You may be right, as sooner or later someone will be right because it has to occur at a specific time anyway. However, we only should be taught to be ready. Back in the WW2 days my father often heard dates mentioned because it looked like the end. Then when the predictions did not come true it turned a lot of people off. I sure hope this will come in my lifetime, but I do not know for certain.

 

[preterist]

Quote:
Who is denying that Jesus was to return again?


It seemed to me you were.

Nope. I just deny it is in our future.

And yes, there is going to be a physical kingdom because Jesus will one day be given the throne of King David, which is an earthly (not heavenly) throne.

First you must deny the Kingdom was at hand:

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Secondly you must deny that it comes without observation. How does a physical Kingdom come without observation?

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He can and will still manifest himself because all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

“all the tribes†is a direct reference to the 12 tribes of Israel. Secondly as I have pointed out numerous times, even non-preterist acknowledge that the events of AD70 were a fulfillment of the “Son of man coming on the cloudsâ€Â.

John Gill:

and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mat_24:27.

This is in agreement with what the men in white apparel said in Acts 1:11. What are these clouds? Check out Hebrews 12:1.

“In the clouds†and “coming in the clouds†is an OT expression, so we should not be surprised when the NT writers use it.

Exodus 16:10 – It came about as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 19:9 – The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD.

Exodus 34:5 – The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD.

Leviticus 16:2 – The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.â€Â

Numbers 11:25 – Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him....

Tim King comments:
Note that in several of these passages, Yahweh is said to have “come,†He “descended,†“came down,†and “appeared.†This is language similar to that which Jesus used in reference to His own second coming. Question: was the “body†of Yahweh seen at these times or was it just that the cloud signified the presence of Yahweh? Were these manifestations of Yahweh “bodily and physical?†The answer is obvious.

Psalm 18:912 – He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. He rode upon a cherub and flew; and He sped upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him, darkness of waters, and thick clouds of the skies. From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds, hailstones and coals of fire.

Psalm 97:23 – Clouds and thick darkness surround Him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. Fire goes before Him and burns up His adversaries round about.

Psalm 104:3 – He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind...

Isaiah 19:1 – The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Daniel 7:13 – I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.

There is no Jesus ruling from the throne of David right now.

John Gill:

and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. Christ, as God, is the Son of God, as man, the son of David; a name often given to the Messiah, and by which he was well known among the Jews; and as Christ descended from him as man, in a literal sense, he had a right to the throne of his father David; and the Jews themselves say, that he was קרוב למלכות, "nearly allied to the kingdom" (w): but here it intends not his throne, in a literal, but in a figurative sense; for as David was a type of the Messiah in his kingly office, hence the Messiah is called "David their king", Hos_3:5 so his throne was typical of the Messiah's throne and kingdom; which is not of this world, but is in his church, and is set up in the hearts of his people, where he reigns by his Spirit and grace; and this is a throne and kingdom "given" by the Lord God. The kingdom of nature and providence he has by right of nature, as the Son of the Highest; the kingdom of grace, or the mediatorial kingdom, the kingdom of priests, or royal priesthood, is a delegated one; his Father has set him as king over his holy hill of Zion; and he is accountable for his government to him, and will one day deliver it up complete and perfect,

The NT writers, particularly Paul, did not teach that Jesus already returned.

Because they wrote prior to AD70.

Paul's writings are hard to understand, so some people wrest his writings, like the other scriptures to their destruction. They are no more born again than the chair they are sitting on as I would say.

Didn’t realize understanding Paul’s eschatology was a salvation matter.

am sorry Preterist but you are wrong.... the End Times spoken of in the bible have not already occurred but are rapidly approaching.

Might want to tell Peter, Paul, John, and the writer of Hebrews this, because they said the last times/last days/last hour/end of the ages/end of all things were occurring in the 1st century. Just what “end times†are you referring to. Scriptures if you don’t mind.

And when I say approaching, I am talking in the next year or two, not hundreds or thousands of years away.

Will you become a preterist if by the end of 2008 if we are all still here??? Back in my teenage years Hal Lindsey and the rest of his crowd had everyone believing 1988 was the year. Seems nothing has changes except the dates.

From the signs that are occuring today, I would say the final seven years are on course to begin in 2007 or perhaps 2008.

What signs and what scriptures do they fulfill?

Hopefully I will see your 30th post.

You may be right, as sooner or later someone will be right because it has to occur at a specific time anyway.

Weren’t the inspired NT writers along with Jesus specific enough?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well, despite all these explanations, I still find it funny that you understood me to believe in a literal return of Christ yet in the future when in reality I just plagiarized the bible. :-D

 

[preterist]

Well, despite all these explanations, I still find it funny that you understood me to believe in a literal return of Christ yet in the future when in reality I just plagiarized the bible. :-D

Then I must say you are easily amused.

 

[MrVersatile48]

BIRTHPAINS intensifying & accelerating SINCE 1948

Jesus said, 'No-one knows the day or the hour - not the Son - but the Father only' (when He will return)

But He & OT prophets pinpoint this climax generation of all history as starting with the rebirth of Israel after global scattering of Jews - see Matt 24 Jeremiah 31 & Ezekiel 36 etc - that was fulfilled in May 1948

BIRTHPAINS NEVER JUST BEGIN

ONCE THEY START, THERE IS NO STOPPING THEM

Praise God they serve to bring on the Great Delivery - instant airlift Raptur rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time ever comes - 'otherwise, no flesh would be left alive

2 Peter 3 says Earth will be destroyed by fire

See the starting point of the obviously intensifying, accelerating birthpains of all kinds of spiritual, natural & social disaters as per Matt 24 etc

See Israel reborn: Psalms 17 & 48 etc etc

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27370

A Bible generation is no more than 70 years, but we don't have that long

Jesus said this generation will be cut short - by the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Him - as in Matt 24:30-31 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 etc

Also, note how Jesus replied when His friends asked what signs would show the end to be near, in Matt 24

Matthew 24 (New International Version)

Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many.

6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again.

22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

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The fig tree was used several times in the Bible as a symbol of Israel, just as the cedars of Lebanon

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33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.

50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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He forecast all kinds of disasters - natural, social & spiritual - intensifying & accelerating like birthpains, to bring on that Great Delivery

We are not yet in the Great Tribulation because Revelation 6:8 says 25% of mankind die thru wars, famines, earthquakes & by the wild beasts of Earth

Nor is that total Armageddon, for Rev 9:15-18 says a third of mankind die by war begun @ R Euphrates, so Revelation prophesies the classic escalation pattern

Rev 6:8 is like 500 times 9/11 & Armageddon is like 2000+ times, as there are @ 6.5 billion folk on Earth: as 2 Peter 3 says, Earth is reserved for destruction by fire

"NOW is the day of salvation"

Don't miss the Rapture: don't be left behind to face the worst time on Earth


The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5 (New International Version)

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.

7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


Pass it on to all you love & care about: tell even your enemies

God bless!

Ian