'birthpains' & 'signs of the times'

[MrVersatile48]

BEFORE OUR EYES..

with 11 explanation posts recently added 8-)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18604

Ian :wink:

 

[tim-from-pa]

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yes, Jesus did say that. And that passage is construed to mean that the kingdom is not literal, but in one's hearts. Jesus did not say that. What he was saying was that the kingdom does not come with (or because) one's observation (i.e., man trying to bring it on or saying when it begins). That's because Christ works in the faith realm. Observation is NOT faith, but sight. Rather the kingdom is within (alt translation "among") you. In other words, Jesus was the King of the kingdom which they did not see by their sight, but the kingdom was already among them with his presence, but they did not realize it. And that kingdom will be fully realized in his final return which he also taught.
If "within" meant "in one's hearts" then we must consider who Jesus was speaking to. He was addressing the Pharisees. Since they did not believe in Him, then how can the kingdom be "within" them? they were unbelievers. So that blows that theory to ****.

 

[preterist]

But He & OT prophets pinpoint this climax generation of all history as starting with the rebirth of Israel after global scattering of Jews - see Matt 24 Jeremiah 31 & Ezekiel 36 etc - that was fulfilled in May 1948

Were is the proof?

Are you saying the New Covenant is not yet here?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So how are we saved today if the New Covenant is still in our future? What new Covenant did Jesus institute?

A Bible generation is no more than 70 years, but we don't have that long

So your view is falsified if in 2018 were are still discussing this. What will you do then? Do you contribute to a 401k or any other retirement system?

Also, note how Jesus replied when His friends asked what signs would show the end to be near, in Matt 24

You left out verse 34:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The fig tree was used several times in the Bible as a symbol of Israel, just as the cedars of Lebanon

Is it the same fig tree that will never produce fruit forever?

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

What he was saying was that the kingdom does not come with (or because) one's observation (i.e., man trying to bring it on or saying when it begins).

It seems the greek disagrees with youâ€Â


G3907
παρατήρησις
paratērēsis
par-at-ay'-ray-sis
From G3906; inspection, that is, ocular evidence: - observation.

Where did you get this definition for observation:
(i.e., man trying to bring it on or saying when it begins)

That sounds like an interpretation not a definition. Perhaps because if it is a physical Kingdom then it would seem to be impossible for it to not be observable therefore “observation†must be re-difined.

However Daniel was quite clear when the Kingdom would be established:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

John Wesley, hardly a preterist says this:

Dan 2:44 - In the days of these kings - While the iron kingdom stood, for Christ was born in the reign of Augustus Caesar. And this kingdom is not bounded by any limits, as worldly empires are, but is truly universal. And it shall be for ever, never destroyed or given to others, as the rest were.

Matthew Henry says this:

But it has been the more received opinion that it is the Roman monarchy that is here intended, because it was in the time of that monarchy, and when it was at its height, that the kingdom of Christ was set up in the world by the preaching of the everlasting gospel.


So here during the Roman Empire we have John showing up on the scene:

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What does the “time is fulfilled†mean? He also seems to link the Kingdom to repenting and believing the Gospel. Was that not happening then? Is it not happening now?

They were receiving it in the 1st century:

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

How are men being pressed into a Kingdom that does not yet exist? Once again, John is associating the Kingdom with the New Covenant and contrasting it to the Old.

Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Why does Paul continue to preach a Kingdom that does not exist? Paul also associates the Kingdom with the teaching of Christ.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Once again, John Wesley:

Joh 18:36 - My kingdom is not of this world - Is not an external, but a spiritual kingdom; that I might not be delivered to the Jews - Which Pilate had already attempted to do, Joh_18:31, and afterward actually did, Joh_19:16.

In other words, Jesus was the King of the kingdom which they did not see by their sight, but the kingdom was already among them with his presence, but they did not realize it.

But any who have Christ enter His Kingdom.

If "within" meant "in one's hearts" then we must consider who Jesus was speaking to. He was addressing the Pharisees. Since they did not believe in Him, then how can the kingdom be "within" them? they were unbelievers. So that blows that theory to ****.

Fine, but I never made that argument. I agree with you.

G1787
ἐντός
entos
Thayer Definition:
1) within, inside
1a) within you, i.e. in the midst of you
1b) within you, i.e. your soul
Part of Speech: preposition

 

[tim-from-pa]

observation:

παρατήρησις
paratērēsis
par-at-ay'-ray-sis
From G3906; inspection, that is, ocular evidence: - observation.

"We walk by faith, not by sight...."

Sight

G1491
εἶδος
eidos
i'-dos
From G1492; a view, that is, form (literally or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight.


I'll admit different, but similar concepts. What Jesus was saying is that the ocular evidence that the Pharisees demanded was not based in faith because He was of the Kingdom of God and did not recognize it in their midst. There is nothing in the text that limits Jesus to a kingdom that cannot be seen. Otherwise, what was the point of being in human form (where one can see him) the when he came to earth?

 

[lecoop]

Preterist,

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


What timing would you attach to the above statement? Not when it was spoken, but when will it be [or was it] fulfilled? Do you look for His coming?

Coop

 

[Jeff Mills]

Re: The End Times are Now!

I am sorry Preterist but you are wrong.... the End Times spoken of in the bible have not already occurred but are rapidly approaching. And when I say approaching, I am talking in the next year or two, not hundreds or thousands of years away. From the signs that are occuring today, I would say the final seven years are on course to begin in 2007 or perhaps 2008.

Also, for those of you who hold out for the notion of pre-tribulation rapture, I am afraid you need to read scripture again. The children of God will not be raptured until the end of the final seven years. So get ready for a rocky ride. And prepare!

I must agree with your statement there.
He is coming VERY SOON! Hallelujah!

 

[lecoop]

Preterist:

Same question: different verses:

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 Corinthians 1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

James 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Clouds:
Mat: 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

All of these verses speak of His "coming." Premillennial thought would say that each of these verses are speaking of a "coming" yet in out future. I would says that some refer to a rapture of the church before his glorious coming, and some refer to His coming which we see in Revelation 19.

Coop

 

[tim-from-pa]

No matter how many verses quoted about Christ's return until the cows come home, I think the preterist position is that Christ already came and these passages were written before 70AD or whatever historical date they give. And the kingdom is "within our hearts" whatever that means. Meanwhile earth remains unchanged in spite of the fact that the whole purpose of the earth was for God to have his kingdom and family thru Adam's race (expecting him to take from the tree of life). But somehow all the preterist's position is to reconstrue these to now become "spiritual" instead. But that's not how the Jews originally understood it, but that matters not to them. As far as the preterist position is concerned, the unconditional covenants to the physical race of Abraham are void because they have no faith, or whatever they perceive the problem is.

I wish I had those rose-colored glasses. If the Kingdom is here already, all I have to say is tell the mothers here in our township that. We lost two young men to the war in Iraq, and the world is getting worse and worse not better, nor if it stays the way it is will get any better. If I said to those mothers that Christ came back, I would probably have my ears twisted off.

So everyone, quote away. It's going into the wind.

 

[preterist]

Sight

G1491
εἶδος
eidos
i'-dos
From G1492; a view, that is, form (literally or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight.


I'll admit different, but similar concepts.

But the word “sight†was not the word Jesus used.

Preterist,

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


What timing would you attach to the above statement?
Not when it was spoken, but when will it be [or was it] fulfilled?

AD70 because I believe it speaks of the same "comings" found throughout the NT.

Do you look for His coming?

No, I celebrate his coming.

I must agree with your statement there.
He is coming VERY SOON! Hallelujah!

Define “soon.â€Â

All of these verses speak of His "coming." Premillennial thought would say that each of these verses are speaking of a "coming" yet in out future. I would says that some refer to a rapture of the church before his glorious coming, and some refer to His coming which we see in Revelation 19.

I agree they all speak to His coming. Partial preterist will say some apply to His AD70 “coming†while others speak to His final “comingâ€Â. I wish I could hold that position, but I agree with most futurist who say you cannot split these coming into an AD70 coming and a final coming. This is why partial-preterist must butcher the Olivet Discourse found in Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. I don’t think you can be intellectually honest nor hermeneutically honest and hold a partial-preterist view.

But I find equal problems with you trying to make the rapture a “coming†of Christ.

But somehow all the preterist's position is to reconstrue these to now become "spiritual" instead. But that's not how the Jews originally understood it,

So we should interpret the Bible the way the “Jews†believed it would be fulfilled? You are aware they rejected their Messiah? No thanks, I’ll stick with the NT writers interpretation of the OT prophecies.

As far as the preterist position is concerned, the unconditional covenants to the physical race of Abraham are void because they have no faith,

Paul the preterist:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What race was Abraham?

I wish I had those rose-colored glasses. If the Kingdom is here already, all I have to say is tell the mothers here in our township that.

So Daniel was wrong? Why not prove your position from scripture not by your earthly circumstances.

We lost two young men to the war in Iraq, and the world is getting worse and worse not better,

So what era would you rather live in than now? Middle ages? 1800’s when the average lifespan was about 40? Time of Christ? Yea, it's horrible now as we sit in our air-conditioned homes communicating world-wide over the internet checking our 401k's with a refrigerator full of food. The good ole days of the Huns.

If I said to those mothers that Christ came back, I would probably have my ears twisted off.

Just tell them the Church has been a dismal failure and Christ dwelling in His people here on earth has made no difference in the world and in fact things just get worse. Maybe that will make them feel better.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Just tell them the Church has been a dismal failure and Christ dwelling in His people here on earth has made no difference in the world and in fact things just get worse. Maybe that will make them feel better.

OK, I will because that's what is happening since things are not getting better and that's apparently the best Christ can do. I'll tell those sobbing women that the Kingdom is here and the peaceful heavenly New Jerusalem is here as well because Preterist said so.

 

[preterist]

OK, I will because that's what is happening since things are not getting better and that's apparently the best Christ can do.

What a pitiful witness.

I'll tell those sobbing women that the Kingdom is here and the peaceful heavenly New Jerusalem is here as well because Preterist said so.

Have you actually read about the New Jerusalem? Go back to Isaiah and read about it.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Death and sin are in the New Heavens and new Earth.

What is the New Jerusalem? It is the Church:

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


C.H. Spurgeon
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Was Daniel wrong?????

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

Quote: lecoop
[quote:2e5d7]All of these verses speak of His "coming." Premillennial thought would say that each of these verses are speaking of a "coming" yet in out future. I would says that some refer to a rapture of the church before his glorious coming, and some refer to His coming which we see in Revelation 19.

I agree they all speak to His coming. Partial preterist will say some apply to His AD70 “coming†while others speak to His final “comingâ€Â. I wish I could hold that position, but I agree with most futurist who say you cannot split these coming into an AD70 coming and a final coming. This is why partial-preterist must butcher the Olivet Discourse found in Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. I don’t think you can be intellectually honest nor hermeneutically honest and hold a partial-preterist view.

But I find equal problems with you trying to make the rapture a “coming†of Christ. [/quote:2e5d7]

Why did the HS cause Luke to write something different than Matthew and Mark, here:

Mat 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mark 13
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

According to Josephus, Titus surrounded the city, then withdrew for a short time, then came back and surrounded the city again. Only this time, the Christians had seen the army, and escaped.

If Titus truly did commit an abomination that would fulfill the verses in Matthew and Mark (I don't believe he did), if the Christians had waited to see such an abomination, they would have been killed also. It seems then, that the HS caused Luke to write what he wrote, so that Christians would be spared in 70 AD.

Yet I believe that all these verses are also written for an event yet coming in our future: the beast of Revelation will yet build an image, such as Nebuchadnezzar did, and force people to worship the image. The beast of Revelation will perform an abomination such as Antiochus did, by placing this image in the temple, and declaring himself as God in the temple.

Therefore, what Luke wrote may have been only for 70 AD, or the beast may fulfil this by surrounding Jerusalem once again with armies. What Matthew and Mark wrote, has yet to be fulfilled.

1 Thessalonians 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. Yet here we read that He will descend from heaven. If so, and it certainly is so, then this is a "coming." He will leave heaven, and "come" to the air above the earth, where we will rise up to meet Him in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul shows us the "coming" and the "gathering."

Coop

 

[preterist]

Why did the HS cause Luke to write something different than Matthew and Mark, here:

Because Matthews audience was Jewish and Luke's was Gentile.

Therefore, what Luke wrote may have been only for 70 AD,

Does this relate to AD70:

Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified, for all these things must first occur, but the end is not at once.

This?


Luk 21:10 And He said to them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in different places, and famines and plagues. And there shall be terrors and great signs from Heaven.

Or this:


Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And finally this:

Luk 21:27 And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.

You see the problem when you say Luke 21 speaks of a different event than Matt. 24?

Let me help you out on this point. Most dispies like Thomas Ice will carve out verses 20-24 and acknowledge they apply to AD70, but say the things before those verses and after those verses apply to the future. I find this butchering job ridiculous.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul shows us the "coming" and the "gathering."

Paul is writing to the Thessalonians.

2Th 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They are enduring persecution and tribulation:

2Th 1:4 so much so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations which you endure.


He promises them relief from their persecution:

2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,

He promises them relief at His coming:

2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Th 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


Now, put yourself in the shoes of a 1st century Thessalonian. Did Paul just give you a false hope or did he tell you the truth? Did they receive their relief from persecution at His coming or did they not?

 

[lecoop]

[quote:0d176]Quote: lecoop
Why did the HS cause Luke to write something different than Matthew and Mark, here:

Because Matthews audience was Jewish and Luke's was Gentile.

If so, that was true only for the 1st century readers. For about 1800 years, both books have been mainly for Gentile readers*

(*I did discover that Jewish kids are taught from the New Testament today in Israel.)

Coop's answers inside quote in dark red.
Preterist said

Does this relate to AD70:

Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified, for all these things must first occur, but the end is not at once.

No, this relates to the entire church age, from AD 33 and continuing to the present time.

This?

Luk 21:10 And He said to them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in different places, and famines and plagues. And there shall be terrors and great signs from Heaven.

Again, for the entire church age. Even in my short lifespan (60 years) there have been nations rise against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms; there have been famines, earthquakes, and plagues. These things cover the church age. When Jesus spoke of these things, He added, "the end is not yet," showing us that He was not yet talking about end time events.

Or this:

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Luke does not get to the "end" until verse 24. (Verse 9: "but the end will not come right away." NIV) Therefore, these verses are concerning the same time as Matt 24:15 on to the end. Both cover the 70th week of Daniel, a time still ahead of us.

And finally this:

Luk 21:27 And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.

Again, from verse 24 on, a prophecy for a time still in our future.

You see the problem when you say Luke 21 speaks of a different event than Matt. 24?

Sorry, but I don't see a problem. Matthew speaks of the church age, up to verse 15. He says, "but the end is not yet." (verse 6) Then:

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

These two verses speak about the "end."

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

This verse is in the middle of the 70th week. It is "the end" spoken of in verses 13 & 14.

Let me help you out on this point. Most dispies like Thomas Ice will carve out verses 20-24 and acknowledge they apply to AD70, but say the things before those verses and after those verses apply to the future. I find this butchering job ridiculous.

I don't think "butcher" is the right word. I think these verses have a double application. The Holy Spirit caused it to be written so that Christians would flee Jerusalem in 70 AD. It is also written so that Jews will flee Jerusalem at the midpoint of the 70th week, still in our future. I believe Matthew, Mark, and Luke are speaking of a time yet future to us. Of course you will disagree. But in disagreeing, you will have to bypass the clearest meaning of these verses:

Luk 21
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These verses back up Rev 1:17

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And Acts:
Acts 1:
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

There can be no doubt that one day every eye will see Jesus come. John tells of His coming in Rev. 19. Again, this has not happened, but will happen soon.

Paul is writing to the Thessalonians.

2Th 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They are enduring persecution and tribulation:

2Th 1:4 so much so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations which you endure.


He promises them relief from their persecution:

2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,

He promises them relief at His coming:

2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Th 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Yes, at the revealing! He has not yet been revealed! (If in doubt, see again the verses above. Not only has "every eye" NOT seen Him, no eye has seen Him yet, for He has not yet come!)

Now, put yourself in the shoes of a 1st century Thessalonian. Did Paul just give you a false hope or did he tell you the truth? Did they receive their relief from persecution at His coming or did they not?

No, sorry! Christians did receive relief, finally, when Constantine became the Roman Emperor. Jesus did not come, and did not give that generation relief by His coming. (He did give them grace.) He will come, and will give us relief, on the day that He is revealed. "10 This will happen on that day when the Lord returns..." (CEV)By the way, what happened in Thessaloniki in 70 AD?

[/quote:0d176]

Coop

 

[preterist]

Does this relate to AD70:

Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified, for all these things must first occur, but the end is not at once.

No, this relates to the entire church age, from AD 33 and continuing to the present time.

I asked all those questions about Luke because you said this :

Therefore, what Luke wrote may have been only for 70 AD,

In reading your responses you now believe Luke does not apply to only AD70. You keep switching sides every time I challenge one of your statements.

But in disagreeing, you will have to bypass the clearest meaning of these verses:

Luk 21
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

We’ve been over this a million times. OT language.

As far as clear meaning:

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Th 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Yes, at the revealing! He has not yet been revealed!

Then the Thessalonians did not receive their rest from tribulation and persecution. Paul either gave them a false hope or he lied.

Now, put yourself in the shoes of a 1st century Thessalonian. Did Paul just give you a false hope or did he tell you the truth? Did they receive their relief from persecution at His coming or did they not?

No, sorry! Christians did receive relief, finally, when Constantine became the Roman Emperor.

What?? This is a couple of hundred years after the Thessalonians were dead and buried. Once again Paul told them a non-truth.

Jesus did not come, and did not give that generation relief by His coming. (He did give them grace.)

Finally a straight answer. Jesus did not promise them grace, they already had that, he promised them relief from persecution. So you now admit what Paul promised them did not come to be.

By the way, what happened in Thessaloniki in 70 AD?

The Jewish persecution ended.

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said,

[quote:92f19]Quote: lecoop
By the way, what happened in Thessaloniki in 70 AD?

The Jewish persecution ended.[/quote:92f19]

Chapter and verse? Ah, who was Paul writing to, Jews or Gentiles?

1 Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians...

I submit to you that Paul was writing, for the most part, to the Gentile church. When did persecution of the Gentile church end?

According to several sources, despite some arguments in the academic community, Jews and Christians were heavily persecuted during his [Domitian's] reign. [81 – 96]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domitian

We see then, that persecution did not end in 70 AD. Did Paul then, give them false hope? What else did Paul write about His coming?

1 Cor. 15
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

All we need do, to find out if Paul's "end" has come, is see if death has been destroyed. It will be the last enemy to be destroyed. Of course it has not; therefore,the "end" according to Paul has not come. When will the "end" come? Paul says "Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come..." Did Paul teach a different "coming" to the Thessalonians? No.

1 Thes 3
13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Did Jesus come "with all His holy ones" in 70 AD? Of course not! Did the dead in Christ raise to life in 70 AD? Of course not. These things are still ahead of us.

It was not until the end of the Roman empire when Constantine the Great converted to Christianity did the persecution of Christians fully end.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=500350&lastnode_id=0


Heb. 11
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Don't get excited! I know Paul was writing of Old Covenant saints. However, there is a principle here: God promised wrath on those that persecuted the church. But that wrath was not to come then. It is still in our future. Now, who was Paul's promise to?

2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,

Was it for them, or for the final generation?

Let's take the following in context:

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

From the last verse: "this generation..." Now, which generation was the Holy Spirit meaning here? Go back to verse 31: "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass..." What things come to pass? Back up to verse 28: "when these things begin to come to pass..." Jesus said it twice! Again, what things? Verse 27 gives us the answer: "then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Sorry, but this has not yet happened. Therefore, this verse is for the generation that sees Jesus come. Verse 25: "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;" The signs in the sun, moon and stars relate to John's 6th seal, again, an event in our future. They did not see an earthquake that shook every mountain range in the world, accompanied by the sun turning black and the moon turning to blood. Neither did they see the 7 trumpets of John follow in the next 3 1/2 years. Why? Because these things are in our future.

Coop

 

[preterist]

Preterist said,
Quote:

Quote:
Quote: lecoop
By the way, what happened in Thessaloniki in 70 AD?



The Jewish persecution ended.


Chapter and verse?

Chapter and verse on what?

Ah, who was Paul writing to, Jews or Gentiles?

1 Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians...

He was writing to the Church at Thessalonica.

I submit to you that Paul was writing, for the most part, to the Gentile church. When did persecution of the Gentile church end?

I submit he was writing to the Church he said he was writing to. They were dealing with persecution from the Jews just as Paul did throughout the book of Acts.

According to several sources, despite some arguments in the academic community, Jews and Christians were heavily persecuted during his [Domitian's] reign. [81 – 96]

Paul is speaking of the Church at Thessalonica and the persecution on them coming from the Jews.

We see then, that persecution did not end in 70 AD.

Then Paul lied to them and gave them a false hope of relief.

All we need do, to find out if Paul's "end" has come, is see if death has been destroyed. It will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Did Paul teach a different "coming" to the Thessalonians? No.

Bingo!

Did Peter speak of a different “end†than Paul?

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Now, who was Paul's promise to?

2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,

Exactly! He promised it to the Thessalonians.

Was it for them, or for the final generation?

Paul says it was for them:

2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,

From the last verse: "this generation..." Now, which generation was the Holy Spirit meaning here? Go back to verse 31: "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass..." What things come to pass? Back up to verse 28: "when these things begin to come to pass..." Jesus said it twice! Again, what things? Verse 27 gives us the answer: "then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Sorry, but this has not yet happened.

Then why do you say it must all be fulfilled again? In order to have a double fulfillment you must have a 1st fulfillment.

Verse 25: "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;" The signs in the sun, moon and stars relate to John's 6th seal, again, an event in our future. They did not see an earthquake that shook every mountain range in the world, accompanied by the sun turning black and the moon turning to blood. Neither did they see the 7 trumpets of John follow in the next 3 1/2 years. Why? Because these things are in our future.

Or it’s typical apocalyptic language that’s found throughout the OT that you just haven’t seemed to grasp yet.

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said

Coop said
[quote:24929]Chapter and verse?

Chapter and verse on what?[/quote:24929]

Where do you find a record that the persecution of the church at Thessaloniki ended in 70 AD? Where do you find that it was the Jews that was the source of their persecution? It seems that it was their fellow Gentiles.

After Paul's departure, an intense persecution of those who had become Christians began in Thessalonica (1 Thess 2.14 ff.)
It does not appear to be a persecution that the Jews cause but rather a persecution that is caused by other Gentiles in Thessalonica

http://www.bloomquist.ca/SPU%20Courses/ ... ns%201.htm

1 Thes. 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]I submit to you that Paul was writing, for the most part, to the Gentile church. When did persecution of the Gentile church end?

I submit he was writing to the Church he said he was writing to. They were dealing with persecution from the Jews just as Paul did throughout the book of Acts.[/quote:24929]

Indeed, Paul was persecuted by the Jews. But was this also the source of the persecution for the Gentile church there? Notice who Paul sent back:

2 Thes 3
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Was Timothy persecuted as Paul? It seems not.

Paul is speaking of the Church at Thessalonica and the persecution on them coming from the Jews.

The persecution against Paul was from the Jews. However, Paul left! Do you have proof that this was the source of the Gentile church's persecution?

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]We see then, that persecution did not end in 70 AD

.


Then Paul lied to them and gave them a false hope of relief. [/quote:24929]

I think you need to put the blame higher up! Paul was inspired by the HS to write what he wrote. Who was the HS writing to? To the church throughout all ages, not just to the Thessalonian church. Did the Jews continue to persecute the Gentile church after Paul left? I don't know. Did the Gentiles persecute the church there? I don't know. Therefore, I cannot say if Paul's message gave them false hope. One thing I do know: Thessaloniki was a long way from Jerusalem. I don't know what happened in Thessaloniki when Jerusalem was overthrown. One thing I do know: Paul told his readers exactly when they, the readers, would get their rest: "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."

I am sure that this is an event still in our future. You will disagree.

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]All we need do, to find out if Paul's "end" has come, is see if death has been destroyed. It will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: [/quote:24929]

Jesus abolished death when He rose from the dead. However, Paul tells us that it will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]Did Paul teach a different "coming" to the Thessalonians? No

.


Bingo!

Did Peter speak of a different “end†than Paul?

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. [/quote:24929]

Now we are back to what the Holy Spirit meant by "at hand." Sorry, but the end of "all things" did not come in 70 AD. I doubt if folks living in China knew anything different the next day: it is sure that they knew nothing of Jerusalem's destruction. However, when the "end" Peter speaks of comes, all will know, for the elements will melt! And, ultimately, every eye will see Him!

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]Now, who was Paul's promise to?

2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,


Exactly! He promised it to the Thessalonians. [/quote:24929]

No! The promise was to all readers, in all generations: however, only one generation would be around to see Jesus coming on the clouds; an event still in our future!

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]Was it for them, or for the final generation?

Paul says it was for them:

2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,[/quote:24929]

The day will come when God will repay, for He says, that vengence belongs to Him. However, the final judgement day is still in our future.

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]From the last verse: "this generation..." Now, which generation was the Holy Spirit meaning here? Go back to verse 31: "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass..." What things come to pass? Back up to verse 28: "when these things begin to come to pass..." Jesus said it twice! Again, what things? Verse 27 gives us the answer: "then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Sorry, but this has not yet happened.

Then why do you say it must all be fulfilled again? In order to have a double fulfillment you must have a 1st fulfillment.[/quote:24929]

It is only you that think this was fulfilled in 70 AD. It wasn't. Jesus has not yet got onto the white horse. He has not yet split the sky as lightning that flashes from East to West. Every eye has NOT seem Him. His foot has not yet touched down on the mountian, and the mountain has not yet split.
There is no river flowing out from His throne, healing the waters of the dead sea. NONE of this has happened yet. However, it will happen soon.

Quote: lecoop
[quote:24929]Verse 25: "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;" The signs in the sun, moon and stars relate to John's 6th seal, again, an event in our future. They did not see an earthquake that shook every mountain range in the world, accompanied by the sun turning black and the moon turning to blood. Neither did they see the 7 trumpets of John follow in the next 3 1/2 years. Why? Because these things are in our future.

Or it’s typical apocalyptic language that’s found throughout the OT that you just haven’t seemed to grasp yet.[/quote:24929]

This is not written in the Old Testament. It is in the new. I choose to believe it just as it is written. You are free to believe it however you want to believe it. However, a sign must be visible, else it is not a real sign.

The disciples ask: "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus answered them:

Matt 24:
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are observable signs. Therefore, they must be visible, and will be seen and understood by some.

Coop

 

[preterist]

Where do you find a record that the persecution of the church at Thessaloniki ended in 70 AD?

John Gill:

2Th 1:7 - And to you who are troubled, rest with us,.... This is another branch of the justice of God, in rendering to them who are afflicted and persecuted for righteousness sake, "rest"; a relaxation or rest from persecutions, for a while at least; as the churches of Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had, from that persecution raised at the death of Stephen, Act_9:31 and as the Christians had at the destruction of Jerusalem; which though it was a day of vengeance to the unbelieving Jews, were times of refreshing to the saints, who were now delivered from their persecutors:

Where do you find that it was the Jews that was the source of their persecution?

Gill:

For ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen; the inhabitants of Thessalonica, the baser sort of them, who were stirred up by the unbelieving Jews of that place, to make an uproar in the city, and assault the house of Jason, in order to seize upon the apostles; see Act_17:6.


Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

http://www.bloomquist.ca/SPU Courses/THO 3102 Paul/thessalonians 1.htm

1 Thes. 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

For ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen - Literally, “of those who are of your fellow-tribe, or fellowclansmen “ - συμφυλέτων sumphuletōn. The Greek word means “one of the same tribe,†and then a fellow-citizen, or fellowcountryman. It is not elsewhere used in the New Testament. The particular reference here seems not to be to the pagan who were the agents or actors in the scenes of tumult and persecutions, but to the Jews by whom they were led on, or who were the prime movers in the persecutions which they had endured. It is necessary to suppose that they were principally Jews who were the cause of the persecution which had been excited against them, in order to make the parallelism between the church there and the churches in Palestine exact.

In Palestine. the Jews persecuted the churches directly; out of Palestine, they did it by means of others. They were the real authors of it, as they were in Judea, but they usually accomplished it by producing an excitement among the pagan, and by the plea that the apostles were making war on civil institutions. This was the case in Thessalonica.

Quote:
Quote: lecoop
Quote:
We see then, that persecution did not end in 70 AD
.


Then Paul lied to them and gave them a false hope of relief.


I think you need to put the blame higher up!

But I don’t think Paul mis-led or lied to them. That is indirectly your view.

Who was the HS writing to? To the church throughout all ages, not just to the Thessalonian church.

No, he was addressing a specific problem.

Paul told his readers exactly when they, the readers, would get their rest: "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."

I am sure that this is an event still in our future. You will disagree.

And since you believe the Thessalonians died before the event happened, then Paul must have lied, mis-led, or just gave them false hope.

Jesus abolished death when He rose from the dead. However, Paul tells us that it will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

So there is a difference between abolish and destroy?

G2673

καταργέω
katargeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

Now we are back to what the Holy Spirit meant by "at hand."

And what was your belief again?

Sorry, but the end of "all things" did not come in 70 AD.

Then Peter joins Paul in being extremely deceptive with his words.

I doubt if folks living in China knew anything different the next day: it is sure that they knew nothing of Jerusalem's destruction.

Chinese aren’t the focus of eschatology. They probably didn’t know about the death and resurrection of Christ either.

However, when the "end" Peter speaks of comes, all will know, for the elements will melt!

Find the usage of “elements†in the NT.

No! The promise was to all readers, in all generations:

No it wasn’t. You rip it out of its historical context.

however, only one generation would be around to see Jesus coming on the clouds; an event still in our future!

Then in reality you believe it is for only one generation and not every generation.

It is only you that think this was fulfilled in 70 AD. It wasn't.

Then why do you keep saying it is a double fulfillment? You continually flip-flop on thios point.

Jesus has not yet got onto the white horse. He has not yet split the sky as lightning that flashes from East to West. Every eye has NOT seem Him. His foot has not yet touched down on the mountian, and the mountain has not yet split.
There is no river flowing out from His throne, healing the waters of the dead sea. NONE of this has happened yet. However, it will happen soon.

We keep going around and around on this. You force a literal interpretation on hyperbolic and metaphoric language. This type of language is found throughout the OT and is not to be taken literally.

This is not written in the Old Testament. It is in the new.

I believe the NT writers use the same metaphoric and hyperbolic language the OT writers. You obviously believe the similar language must now be taken literally.

However, a sign must be visible, else it is not a real sign.

But the sign can be expressed in metaphoric language. The Destruction of Jerusalem was a visible sign.

The disciples ask: "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus answered them:

Matt 24:
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

Zec 9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

The Jews understood the meaning of lightning. Unfortunately when 21st century Americans approach scripture they ignore the precedent set in the OT.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The fall of Babylon is described using similar language:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
The Jews understood it, you do not.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Adam Clarke (1837)
"Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of the manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By.. of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found." (On Matt 24:30)


John Lightfoot (1859)
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world" (Lightfoot, vol. 2, p. 320)

These are observable signs. Therefore, they must be visible, and will be seen and understood by some.

They were observable to the Jewish eyes to whom the words were given.

 

[waitinontheLamb]

Not unless you are living in the times of Jesus.

Well, that is an interesting theory that is put out but it falls apart in the face of Scripture.

If Satan has been bound and we are in the millenium, I am mighty disappointed. I would have thought it would have been such a nice place...... :wink: