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'birthpains' & 'signs of the times'

preterist wrote:


Not unless you are living in the times of Jesus.
Well, that is an interesting theory that is put out but it falls apart in the face of Scripture.
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Funny, because my scriptures say the NT writers were living in the “last days†and “end timesâ€Â. Exactly what face of scripture are you looking at?

American tornadoes in February

2005- 9

2006- 17

2007- 71

Yes, we are seeing the birth pangs increasing dramatically.
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I debated whether or not to even respond to this, but I find it to amusing not to. Here is a classic example of what the “nut jobs†such as Jack Van Impe have created. So you are making the point that the last 3 years of tornado statistics in the United States of America prove the “end is near� Hint: prophecy does not revolve around the good ole USA.
I won’t bother commenting further lest my post be deleted by the moderators. However, may I ask your age?
 
Preterist,

Thanks for the tip! I found "Adam Clarke's" commentary online, and read some of it.

Adam Clarke about Joel 1: I found this paragraph very interesting:

CHAPTER I

This and the beginning of the next chapter contain a double prophecy,applicable in its primary sense to a plagueof locusts which was to devour the land, and to be accompanied with a severedrought and famine; and in its secondary sense it denotes the Chaldean invasion. Both senses must be admitted: for some of the expressions will apply only to the dearth by insects; others to the desolation by war.
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(Emphasis added)

I believe that yet another "sense" or level, it also refers to an event yet in our future. You will, of course, disagree.

Joel 2
The sun and the moon shall be dark] Bochart relates that "their multitude [locusts] is sometimes so immense as to obscure the heavens for the space of twelve miles!''-Ibid. p. 479.
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So indeed, the sun was darkened! It was not passed off as just "old testment" language, or the ramblings of some wild prophet: no, it appears that the sun was darkened, as far as an observer on earth could tell. The same thing happened in Moscow, Idaho, in 1980. About 12:00 or so, it started getting dark. In a few minutes, it was dark as night, and the street lights all came on! We did not at the time, have a clue why, as none of us had a radio on. It did, indeed, seem like the sun was turned off! Therefore, I believe that Joel was prophecying also about the time of the 6th seal in our future. I believe it is in our future, because we have not seen an earthquake that shakes the entire planet, and at the same time, the church is raptured. This is still in our future. Joel said that before the day of the Lord could start, the sun would be darkened. I believe it will be an observable sign.


Verse 28. Shall come to pass afterward] k yrja acharey ken, "after this;" the same, says Kimchi, as in the latter days, which always refers to the days of the Messiah; and thus this prophecy is to be interpreted: and we have the testimony of St. Peter, Acts ii. 17, that this prophecy relates to that mighty effusion of the Holy Spirit which took place after the day of pentecost. Nor is there any evidence that such an effusion took place, nor such effects were produced, from the days of this prophet till the day of pentecost.
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We have then, a prophecy given at least a few hundred years before the day of Pentecost, that was fulfilled these hundreds of years later. Did Joel give any time frame? Yes, he did say, "for it is nigh at hand." In this case then, "nigh at hand" was hundreds of years.

However, I could see that Adam Clarke thought that most of the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD. I have not yet got to what He said about Revelation.

Coop
 
I believe that yet another "sense" or level, it also refers to an event yet in our future. You will, of course, disagree.
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I think what he means is it contains 2 prophecies, not one with double meanings. His later comments seem to bear this out.


Quote:
Joel 2
The sun and the moon shall be dark] Bochart relates that "their multitude [locusts] is sometimes so immense as to obscure the heavens for the space of twelve miles!''-Ibid. p. 479.


So indeed, the sun was darkened! It was not passed off as just "old testment" language, or the ramblings of some wild prophet: no, it appears that the sun was darkened, as far as an observer on earth could tell.
Click to expand...


Joe 2:31 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,.... Not by eclipses, as Aben Ezra; but by the clouds of smoke arising from the burning of towns and cities, which would be so great as to obscure the sun, and through which the moon would look like blood: or all, this may be understood in a figurative sense of the change that should be made in the ecclesiastic and civil state of the Jewish nation, signified by the "heavens" and "earth"; and particularly that their king or kingdom should be in a low, mean, and distressed condition, designed by the sun; and the change of their priesthood is signified by the "moon": so Vitringa on Isa_24:23; interprets the "sun" here of King Agrippa, the last king of the Jews in obscurity; and the "moon" of Ananias junior, the high priest, slain by the zealots:

We have then, a prophecy given at least a few hundred years before the day of Pentecost, that was fulfilled these hundreds of years later. Did Joel give any time frame? Yes, he did say, "for it is nigh at hand." In this case then, "nigh at hand" was hundreds of years.
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You are confused. The second prophecy related to the Messiah was said to come “afterâ€Â:

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

The prophecy relating to the locusts invasion was said to be “nighâ€Â:

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
 
preterist said:
You are confused. The second prophecy related to the Messiah was said to come “afterâ€Â:
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You are quite right: it does say "after."

Here is Adam's full quote:

CHAPTER I

This and the beginning of the next chapter contain a double prophecy,applicable in its primary sense to a plagueof locusts which was to devour the land, and to be accompanied with a severedrought and famine; and in its secondary sense it denotes the Chaldean invasion. Both senses must be admitted: for some of the expressions will apply only to the dearth by insects; others to the desolation by war. The contexture of both is beautiful and well conducted.
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By "this" he means chapter 1. So he is saying that chapter 1, and the first -part of chapter 2, contains a "double prophecy" [I would say a second reference] in the first sense relating to the invasion of locosts, but after the locosts, then an invasion by the Chaldean armies. I don't see how you could make this say anything different.

Coop
 
Again, Matt 24 birthpains - all kinds of disasters - natural, spiritual & social - ALL are intensifying & accelerating since 1948 prophesied endtime rebirth of Israel - to bring on the Great Delivery - the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time ever comes: don't miss it, readers - ask Jesus to forgive all your sins & invite Him to live in your heart as Saviour & Lord

& pass it on to all you love

In the past few days, news has said Tokyo now installing chips in lamposts, even in road tarmac, etc, so you'll never escape propaganda from Govt & big business, etc

see http://www.bbc.co.uk/science

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/articles/

& @ human genes in food

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6294211.stm

Future of science debate begins

Sciencehorizons packs will include cartoons to kick start discussions
The UK public is being invited to have its say on the future of science and technology.

Sciencehorizons, a government funded programme, aims to get people discussing their hopes and fears for future technologies.

Their views will then be fed back to the government and could help shape future science policy.

WE MUST WITNESS, YES?


Back to link EU latest move towards Daniel 7 & Revelation 13 etc


eu-challenges-world-climate-change-plan

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=

Ian
 
Just time to plead again for more folk to post useful news, as this came 2 March:-

PART IV - MIKE EVANS' IRAQ JOURNAL (Final Episode)

Mike Evans' Iraq Journal - Final Installment

Thursday, February 1, 12:30 AM

In just hours, we leave for the border of Iran and the torture chamber of
"Chemical" Ali. The road will be dangerous. An Iranian terror organization
inhabits that mountainous region; it's time to do some serious praying for
our safety.

At 5:30 AM, we began the drive northeastward toward Iran. Kurdistan
encompasses over one-third of the population-inhabited area of Iraq. It has
the largest oilfield in the world, Kirkuk. It reaches from Khanaqin in the
east and stretches along the Iranian border to Sinjar in the West, taking
in the Plain of Nineveh. Our first destination was Sulaymaniyah. I learned
that the Iranians are smuggling heroin, opium and hashish into Iraq. The
border is open for more than 400 miles, and is controlled by the Mahdi Army
and the Bader Brigade, both pro-Iranian Shiite organizations.

Our first meeting was with General Sheikh Ja'affra. This small man with a
large black mustache is the Minister of Peshmerga Affairs. He was so
thankful to the Americans for liberating his people. "If you withdraw now,
you can be sure the terrorists will come to America. It's quite simple; you
asked them to fight you in Iraq and they did. If you leave, they will
consider that you have been defeated, and will take the fight to you.

"The Mahdi Army is trained in Iran, and is modeled after Hezbollah. Their
terror equipment comes from Iran. And yes, it was responsible for the
attack in Najaf as well as all the attacks in the south. The suicide
bombers are coming from al-Qaeda camps in Iraq, and are being replenished
from Afghanistan. They are moving Afghan drugs into Lebanon to sell
throughout Europe. Iran is behind all the attacks in Iraq in one way or
another.

"To win the war, the borders must be closed and monitored by troops that
are not loyal to Iran; troops that can be monitored. Most of Iraq is
controlled by the Shia, and for that to change, a new Iraq must be built
from Kurdistan southward. Our region is a model of democracy and stability.
It is not necessary for U.S. troops to die here; we can stop the terror in
these cities if you will let us. So far, your government has said, 'No.'"

Over lunch we met with Vice President Kosrat Rasul Ali. He invited me to
come back and meet with him and President Barzani and Abdul Abdulbari
Alzebari, a member of the Iraqi Congress. Mr. Ali said to me, "We have
200,000 soldiers, you have 300,000. You don't need military in harm's way;
work with us and we will control all of the ground in Iraq. If you will let
us, we will shut down Iran. Now 60 percent of Iraq is controlled by Iran;
we will see that the number is zero percent."

Following lunch, we visited the Red House, Saddam Hussein's headquarters in
Sulaymaniyah, and the site of his torture chambers. A precious man, Kiowa,
took us to the torture chambers where he was victimized. He was hanged from
meat hooks from his chest while his arms were tied behind his back. At the
same time, electrical shocks were applied to his body parts. I could see
the terrible pain in his eyes as he repeated his story.

I was stunned to learn that Iranians are buying property in Iraq and
pouring a fortune into the fundamentalist mosques. Most who escaped to Iran
during Saddam's regime are back in Iraq and strongly support Iran. They
have made trade agreements and are pouring money into Iraq. There is an
embassy in Baghdad and consulates in almost every region. Tourism
agreements allow millions of pilgrims to visit Karbala and Najaf. This is a
boon for terrorists who enter the country, along with the pilgrims.

Iran's goal of achieving instability in Iraq is succeeding. The Holy Grail
of understanding is that the U.S. battle in Iraq is between stupidity and
stability. America's liberal, anti-war left is giving aid and comfort to
the enemy. The cries of, "We're losing the war; they're winning," emboldens
an enemy that has a 9/11 ideology. As I looked at footage of terrorist
attacks on US troops, I became angry. To think that 9/11 terrorists have
come to Iraq from around the world to fight us while the liberals in the
U.S. scream, "Get out!" This is insane. How can you make Iraq the central
front on the war on terrorism and not have a mess on your hands?

To have uncapped the genie of Shiite fundamentalism in Iraq with a Shiite
super-state next door was a prescription for disaster. One cannot find one
Arab out of one thousand that does not believe the U.S. invaded Iraq over
oil. To try to convince them otherwise is an exercise in futility.

While we outwardly threaten Iran for their interference in Iraq, we close
our eyes to the fact that there are Iranian agents behind virtually every
rock. The embassy and consulates of this member of the axis of evil are
nothing more than war rooms to fund and plan the battles against U.S.
troops.

I am certain that if the U.S. provided the tools for the Iraqi Kurds to
fight the war and simply controlled the skies and provided back-up, U.S.
deaths would drop and victory would come in time. The liberal media,
however, will have to be put into press pools and monitored; they are doing
more to undermine a victory in Iraq than the enemy.

"Ali Baghdad" and his forty thieves that pillaged the banks in Iraq are out
of their cage like a wild bird. They have migrated to the Middle East,
their souls filled with hatred and their pockets filled with U.S. dollars.
If an Iranian-style Islamic revolution happens in Iraq, the fire could jump
across the Middle East.

I have just learned that another Blackhawk helicopter was shot down in
Najaf, the fourth in two weeks. Intelligence officers told me that the
helicopter attacks are carried out with Iranian missiles. Nine more U.S.
soldiers have been killed just in the past 48 hours.

I was just told by three different airport agents that our flight would not
leave for Jordan this morning. Why? There is no jet fuel. Iranian proxies
are blowing up the oil trucks as they head toward Kurdistan, and the Turks
will not allow oil to be transported into Iraq.

Without morality, democracy is one of the worst forms of government. The
world found it to be so during the French Revolution and during Hitler's
day. No power on earth can ignore the Kurdish dilemma indefinitely. Thirty
million living Kurds and the blood of a multitude of the dead cry out for
justice.

Democracy literally means "rule by the people." The only people-group
supporting democracy is the Iraqi Kurdish people. It's a fantastic success.
Everything President Bush wanted to see in Iraq is present in Kurdistan.
Erbil is the fourth largest city in Iraq with Baghdad first, Kirkuk second,
and Mosul third.

The headlines today are gut-wrenching. A suicide bomber driving a truck
loaded with explosives killed 135 in Iraq's deadliest bombing since 2003.
Shiite Prime Minister al-Maliki blamed Saddam Hussein supporters. An
Iraq-born Israeli official tells me that it was Sunni al-Qaeda members. The
problem lies with al-Maliki and his political ally, Moqtada al-Sadr and his
Mahdi Army of over 60,000 terrorists. I am so glad I came to Iraq, and
especially Kurdistan, in order to tell the world the story of democracy at
work in at least a region of Iraq.

Maybe President Bush is right about fighting the global war from Iraq. If
he does that, he must surely fight it as a war with allies, not enemies.
The words of Christopher Columbus may very well describe the President's
War on Terror with Iraq as the central front: "All who heard of my project
rejected it with laughter, ridiculing me. There is no question that the
inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because he comforted me with rays of
marvelous inspiration from the Holy Scriptures."



Click below to receive articles by Mike Evans, intelligence reports from
Iraq, and to receive notices of scheduled showings of the television
documentary, The Final Move Beyond Iraq and release of his newest book The Final Move Beyond Iraq.

http://tool.donation-net.net/ctbf/regis ... &id=215107</a>


Please forward this to a friend.

http://tool.donation-net.net/ctbf/frien ... &id=215107



--------------------------------------------
Join the Jerusalem Prayer Team Now!
http://tool.donation-net.net/ctbf/regis ... &id=215107</a>
 
Just time to plead again for more folk to post useful news,
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I notice you only have time to paste news articles but never enough time to discuss or debate them. Why do you junk up a thread that already has a topic going? Why not just start your own thread and post all your "news" there?
 
preterist said:
I notice you only have time to paste news articles but never enough time to discuss or debate them. Why do you junk up a thread that already has a topic going? Why not just start your own thread and post all your "news" there?
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:smt043

The emoticon says it all!

Coop
 
preterist said:
I notice you only have time to paste news articles but never enough time to discuss or debate them. Why do you junk up a thread that already has a topic going? Why not just start your own thread and post all your "news" there?
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I now work long hours with http://www.flamefmwirral.org.uk

Did you not notice it was I who began this thread & have been posting things relevant to OP title?

As preterists normally get stuck in a 2000-years-old timewarp, I take such consideration of the .. er .. future as encouraging evidence of beginning response to persistent wake up calls by we 'watchmen on the walls'

With my sense of humour - & work schedule - I now just have time to post this timely & relevant Word 4 Today - to encourage folk afraid of all kinds of storms building up in precisely the manner of the prophesied intensifying, accelerating 'birthpains' signs of the times of Matt 24

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope in Him

We have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints-- the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you.

All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.

Colossians 1:4-6 NIV

__________________

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:13 KJV

__________________

Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him, the help of my countenance and my God.

Psalm 42:11 NASB

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.



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Through the Bible in a Year - Readings for March 19
March 19: Matthew 18:21-35, Numbers 7-8, Ecclesiastes 6

Click Here for the complete schedule

Or Copy and paste this link into your browser:
http://www.arcamax.com/ttb-yr.html



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Meditation 3/18-3/24: Col 2:6-12 NIV

Live in Christ!

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:6-12 NIV



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With my sense of humour - & work schedule - I now just have time to post this timely & relevant Word 4 Today - to encourage folk afraid of all kinds of storms building up in precisely the manner of the prophesied intensifying, accelerating 'birthpains' signs of the times of Matt 24
Click to expand...

Yet you can't take the time to prove Matt 24 speaks to the future and not the past. Perhaps because you can't????
 
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