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Blessing of Election !

brightfame52

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Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !
 

Quantrill

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Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !

OK. So?

Do you believe that any who come to Christ will be saved? Any?

Quantrill
 
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Though election is a valid biblical concept, just as salvation is a valid biblical concept, I'm bewildered by the need to foist something on others, unsolicited , that no one has any way of knowing anyway ?
Obvious that Brightframe wants it to be known that he is one of the elect , though no one has asked this question that I have seen .
Even though no one can know for certain that Brightframe 52 is one of the elect , just as no one has any way of knowing if I am either.
So the question becomes what is behind the need to inflate yourself in the spiritual sense, before others, unsolicited, proclaiming something that nobody could ever be certain of anyway?

For me it has the same ring to it as people I've met who are so spiritually insecure they feel they must announce to others that they are a Christian because they are fearful that if they do not announce it to everyone, unsolicited, no one would ever know.
Their spiritual insecurity being palpable .
If you feel you have to tell people or they would never know you are conveying a message alright, a message of not being confidently complete as a child of God.
It is a forced message born of self.
Self seeking, self vindicating .
A message coming from a heart more possessed of uncontrolled self-consciousness, than of long suffering, peace, meekness, faithfulness, joy, complete sonship with the Father.
The Spirit of the Son in our hearts spontaneously expresses to others everything there is to know about our election to a new and complete Sonship as a child of God , through service , not proclamations.
It can only be dwarfed and subtracted from by the self-seeking unsolicited proclamations of sinful lips.
" Lord , what wilt thou have me to do ? " ( Acts 9:6 )
 

brightfame52

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Jesus when speaking of all them the Father giveth Him, Hes speaking of His Sheep, a synonym for His Elect. Jesus is speaking again about those God the Father gave Him here in Jn 10:29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me[Sheep], is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them[Sheep] out of my Father's hand.7

Thats the same as those Jesus said earlier as being the ones the Father gives Him shall come to Him Jn 6:37

John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
 

Quantrill

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Jesus when speaking of all them the Father giveth Him, Hes speaking of His Sheep, a synonym for His Elect. Jesus is speaking again about those God the Father gave Him here in Jn 10:29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me[Sheep], is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them[Sheep] out of my Father's hand.7

Thats the same as those Jesus said earlier as being the ones the Father gives Him shall come to Him Jn 6:37

John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

And any who come to Christ will be saved. (John 6:37) Do you believe that?

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

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Sure I believe it, if you were paying attention you would see I just referred to that verse. The question is rather do you understand it and believe it ?

I was paying attention. You only emphasize the first part of the verse and ignore the rest. Thus my question.

Any who come to Christ will be saved. Any.

Quantrill
 

brightfame52

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The Fact that scripture affirms that Grace was given some in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Certainly indicates that some were Chosen in Him as early, which is affirmed by Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world, that is deep. Heres whats being talked about Job 38:4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


Ps 102:25

Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Prov 8:29

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:


Before God laid the foundations of the world He had Chosen a People in Christ Jesus ! Eph 1:4
 

brightfame52

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If Salvation is by grace, then its by election ! Paul definitely writes that Salvation is by Grace opposed to works Eph 2:5,8-9

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith
; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Also Paul when writing of the elect jews in Rom 11 indicates that Salvation by Grace apart from works stems out of the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace [election of grace], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

In Vs 6 here Paul has joind "by grace" with Vs5 " the election of grace"

And so if by grace [election of grace] its no more of works, which coincides with Paul's writing to the Ephesians that Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works !

Some will argue, that Eph 2:8 mentions Faith, yes it does, because faith/believing is through Grace [election of grace] Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

There's no Preaching Salvation by Grace through Faith without preaching the Election of Grace !
 

Quantrill

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brightfame52

You act as though I am against the doctrine of election. I am not. I understand and hold to the elect of God. No problem.

But your problem is, you don't know who the elect are, and neither do I, until they come to Christ by faith. Because we don't know who they are, as that is God's business not ours, we preach to all. We let the Holy Spirit do His work in leading one to salvation.

We don't include the subject of 'elect' in our witnessing to others or in giving an invitation to salvation in Christ. We just tell them about Christ and that salvation. We present the Gospel knowing that any who come to Christ will be saved.

Quantrill
 

brightfame52

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quantril

But your problem is, you don't know who the elect are, and neither do I, until they come to Christ by faith. Because we don't know who they are, as that is God's business not ours, we preach to all. We let the Holy Spirit do His work in leading one to salvation.

I agree with this statement except for a couple of things. #1 I dont have a problem at all, it doesnt bother me that I dont know who the elect are until they come to Faith, why would that be my problem ? Also, men dont let the Holy Spirit do anything, He is Sovereign, He does what He pleases, when and how He pleases. I have no problem witnessing to anyone who wants to hear me.

We don't include the subject of 'elect' in our witnessing to others or in giving an invitation to salvation in Christ

Thats where you wrong and where we disagree, the elect must be included in our witness since thats who God specifically chose for Salvation and specifically who Christ died for as sinners, and why Salvation is by absolute grace.. You by withholding that Christ died for elect sinners dont preach the whole counsel of the Gospel which Paul did Acts 20:24-27

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Why do you shun election ? Its part of the counsel of God in Salvation. Read Eph 1


We just tell them about Christ and that salvation. We present the Gospel knowing that any who come to Christ will be saved.

Well you dont tell them about Christ if you shun telling them that Christ came specifically to die for His People Matt 1:21 His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 and those who do come to Christ, they were given to Him by the Father Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And none can come to Christ unless its was given to them of the Father Jn 6:44,65
 

Quantrill

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quantril



I agree with this statement except for a couple of things. #1 I dont have a problem at all, it doesnt bother me that I dont know who the elect are until they come to Faith, why would that be my problem ? Also, men dont let the Holy Spirit do anything, He is Sovereign, He does what He pleases, when and how He pleases. I have no problem witnessing to anyone who wants to hear me.



Thats where you wrong and where we disagree, the elect must be included in our witness since thats who God specifically chose for Salvation and specifically who Christ died for as sinners, and why Salvation is by absolute grace.. You by withholding that Christ died for elect sinners dont preach the whole counsel of the Gospel which Paul did Acts 20:24-27

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Why do you shun election ? Its part of the counsel of God in Salvation. Read Eph 1




Well you dont tell them about Christ if you shun telling them that Christ came specifically to die for His People Matt 1:21 His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 and those who do come to Christ, they were given to Him by the Father Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And none can come to Christ unless its was given to them of the Father Jn 6:44,65

And witnessing involves presenting the Gospel. And, the invitation for one to come to Christ. Because you don't know if one is elect or not, you don't bring it up. Why should you? You don't know. You let the Holy Spirit do His work.

The truth concerning the elect belongs to believers. Not to those we witness to. What benefit is there to tell someone who doesn't know the Lord, the doctrine of election? That doesn't move them one way or the other.

The Gospel is not 'Christ died for elect sinners'. The Gospel is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Why should 'elect' matter? It doesn't. All the one you're witnessing to needs to know is 'whosoever believes shall be saved'.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. And the Gospel is 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'. The Gospel is not, 'if you are elect then you can believe and be saved'. That is a great perversion.

As I said, I believe the doctrine of election. I have no problem with it. It is knowledge given to believers to know. It is for believers. It is not for those who don't know the Lord. They could care less.

The bottom line is that if any man come to Christ, he will be saved.

Quantrill
 

brightfame52

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And witnessing involves presenting the Gospel. And, the invitation for one to come to Christ. Because you don't know if one is elect or not, you don't bring it up. Why should you? You don't know. You let the Holy Spirit do His work.

The truth concerning the elect belongs to believers. Not to those we witness to. What benefit is there to tell someone who doesn't know the Lord, the doctrine of election? That doesn't move them one way or the other.

The Gospel is not 'Christ died for elect sinners'. The Gospel is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Why should 'elect' matter? It doesn't. All the one you're witnessing to needs to know is 'whosoever believes shall be saved'.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. And the Gospel is 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'. The Gospel is not, 'if you are elect then you can believe and be saved'. That is a great perversion.

As I said, I believe the doctrine of election. I have no problem with it. It is knowledge given to believers to know. It is for believers. It is not for those who don't know the Lord. They could care less.

The bottom line is that if any man come to Christ, he will be saved.

Quantrill
I just went over this with you. There is no Preaching Christ divorced from Election, its just not.
 

Quantrill

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I just went over this with you. There is no Preaching Christ divorced from Election, its just not.

Yes, I know. I responded to that.

It is not necessary to preach or teach the doctrine of election when you witness to the lost, or even when you preach or teach the Bible.

Sometimes one can preach or teach the Bible and never bring up the topic of election. Then at other times he will.

And, concerning witnessing, you don't know who the elect are. God didn't tell you. That is why you say 'whosoever'.

Quantrill
 

tdidymas

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Yes, I know. I responded to that.

It is not necessary to preach or teach the doctrine of election when you witness to the lost, or even when you preach or teach the Bible.

Sometimes one can preach or teach the Bible and never bring up the topic of election. Then at other times he will.

And, concerning witnessing, you don't know who the elect are. God didn't tell you. That is why you say 'whosoever'.

Quantrill
I'd like to propose a possible compromise on this current debate, if you are open to it, with some questions:
1. Is bf52 saying that an evangelist ought to tell people that if God doesn't elect them they can't be saved? I don't get that he is saying that.
2. Did Jesus talk of election in John 6 to an audience of religious leaders who were unbelievers at the time? Certainly, the term "elect" was not used, but the concept is there, IMO.
3. Is it possible that everywhere the NT scripture mentions the elect, that there were unbelievers present in the audience? Certainly the apostles considered that not everyone in church was saved, since Jesus said "not everyone who calls Me "Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
4. Could mentioning that God elects people cause listeners to wonder if they are part of that elect group, and then be motivated to seek for the answer?

2 Pet. 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" - "brethren" is speaking of those of "like precious faith" (:1) in Christ. But if not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one, then, like John in 1 John, he calls everyone who claims Christ a "brother." Therefore, this advice "to make your calling and election sure" is for everyone who would listen to the gospel, or at least claim to believe it. Also, making election sure can also mean making sure they are the elect.

Certainly, the idea of election has to be presented in a way that stirs people to seek out the nature of their relationship with God. And the two major examples of evangelistic sermons in Acts (2 & 17) doesn't mention election, so it does not have to be part of a first call message. IMO the idea of election does not necessarily appeal to someone who hears the gospel message for the first time (or first few times), but it does appeal to someone who is more than curious about the gospel, who wants to know if it applies to them. And chances are, by that time it does apply to them, or else they would not be interested.

Am I making sense here?
 

brightfame52

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Yes, I know. I responded to that.

It is not necessary to preach or teach the doctrine of election when you witness to the lost, or even when you preach or teach the Bible.

Sometimes one can preach or teach the Bible and never bring up the topic of election. Then at other times he will.

And, concerning witnessing, you don't know who the elect are. God didn't tell you. That is why you say 'whosoever'.

Quantrill
If you know, then you know where I stand.
 

Quantrill

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I'd like to propose a possible compromise on this current debate, if you are open to it, with some questions:
1. Is bf52 saying that an evangelist ought to tell people that if God doesn't elect them they can't be saved? I don't get that he is saying that.
2. Did Jesus talk of election in John 6 to an audience of religious leaders who were unbelievers at the time? Certainly, the term "elect" was not used, but the concept is there, IMO.
3. Is it possible that everywhere the NT scripture mentions the elect, that there were unbelievers present in the audience? Certainly the apostles considered that not everyone in church was saved, since Jesus said "not everyone who calls Me "Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
4. Could mentioning that God elects people cause listeners to wonder if they are part of that elect group, and then be motivated to seek for the answer?

2 Pet. 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" - "brethren" is speaking of those of "like precious faith" (:1) in Christ. But if not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one, then, like John in 1 John, he calls everyone who claims Christ a "brother." Therefore, this advice "to make your calling and election sure" is for everyone who would listen to the gospel, or at least claim to believe it. Also, making election sure can also mean making sure they are the elect.

Certainly, the idea of election has to be presented in a way that stirs people to seek out the nature of their relationship with God. And the two major examples of evangelistic sermons in Acts (2 & 17) doesn't mention election, so it does not have to be part of a first call message. IMO the idea of election does not necessarily appeal to someone who hears the gospel message for the first time (or first few times), but it does appeal to someone who is more than curious about the gospel, who wants to know if it applies to them. And chances are, by that time it does apply to them, or else they would not be interested.

Am I making sense here?

We can't really compare ourselves to Jesus concerning knowledge of the elect. He knows who are the elect. We do not. And we are not given to know. Thus the 'whosoever's' and 'to any who shall come'.

If any are presenting themselves as saved in any fellowship, but they are not, that doesn't affect what one teaches in the Church. You teach all of Scripture. As far as you know all are believers in that setting.

As Jay Vernon McGee once said, the believer when he comes to Christ enters the door that says 'whosoever comes will be saved'. When he walks through that door and looks back at it on the other side, it says, 'chosen from before the foundation of the world'.

Quantrill
 

brightfame52

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Who are of the remnant according to the Election of Grace ?​


Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In this scripture Paul is specifically referring to some of his kinsmen according to the flesh. Now however that said, its a mistake to limit the remnant according to the election of grace to just ethnic jews or Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh. Thats as foolish as saying Salvation by Grace is limited to Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh, ethnic jews. Its written of the Gentiles Acts 15:11

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we[jews] shall be saved, even as they[gentiles].

Acts 15:14,17-18

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This sacred passage speaks to a remnant according to the election of Grace taken out of the gentiles.

The jews were just as fortunate as the gentiles that God had also reserved in them a remnant according to the election of Grace !
 
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